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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Gypsydescendant on Tuesday 27 September 11 12:34 BST (UK)
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Hi Guys heres a juicy one for the ardent searcher I am trying to find the birth or parents of John Laughlan born around 1845 ish he married Jane Rayner in Mudgee NSW Australia 20 3 1865 on the marriage cert it says he was a drover on the cert his last name is spelt Lachlan, there is no info about either of the his parents not even the fact of if they are alive or deceased. Jane Rayner died in USA in 1929 but I have no clue as to where he died,
his children were
Edith
Mary
William
Winifred
John Sydney
George Herbert
Ernest Vivian
Amy Maud
Im not even sure if he was born here I have found a John Laughlan with parents PatrickLaughlan and Catherine? on Ancestry but I dont know if that is right
Can anyone please help me
Gypsy
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Birth certificates for the children may have his birth details but I realise it would be expensive to get them all. You could email one of the registered transcription agents and see if they would extract just the father's information - if it has been recorded.
I see three of the children on NSW BMDs - with parents John and Jane, all registered at Mudgee
1876 #15413 Ernest Vivian LAUGHLAN
1870 #12938 Minette LAUGHLAN
1880 #18957 Amy Maud M LAUGHLAN
Transcription agent info at
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Edit to add:
Obtaining the certificate of the 1902 death may also give some clues. The public tree gives this as the death date of your man. On death certificates you can hope to find
Full name, sex and age, date and place of death, place of residence, usual occupation and marital status at date of death
Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse
Children's name and ages
Parent's names including mother's maiden name
Cause of death and duration of last illness
Burial or cremation date and place
Of course, this depends on the information given at the time, which may not be correct if the informant doesn't know all of the information. As Amy seems to have married in 1905 there is a good chance that the details on his death cert may be worth seeking out.
1902 #7558 John LAUGHLAN, fathers' name John, death registered at WOLLONGONG
Judith
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I do have Williams birth cert but it gives only John Laughlan as father and nothing more on John
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I am in the process of applying for the death cert of John Laughlan 1902 Wollongong assuming this is the right one some of his family did end up in that area
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I can see some of his family are buried at BULLI Cemetery & their surname throughout records is LAUGHLIN.
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Hi there,
Are you saying you have a marriage certificate (or a transcript) and it has blanks for the names of the parents of the bride and groom, the occupations of their fathers, etc?
Fingers crossed this will be helpful .... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 MUDGEE
John LAUGHLIN, residence, Green Swamp
Peter LAUGHLIN, residence, Apple-tree Flat
NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
John LAUGHLIN, residence, Green Swamp
John LOUGHANE, residence, Long Paddock
Thomas LOUGHLIN, residence, Home Rule
Cheers, JM
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I will work with the info from the electoral roll for now
I have a copy of the the actual marriage cert with no parent names maybe because they were married out in the country ?
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I will work with the info from the electoral roll for now
I have a copy of the the actual marriage cert with no parent names maybe because they were married out in the country ?
No, country/regional/rural/ districts is not the reason.... , the reason there's no parents names recorded on the NSW BDM registration is two fold ....
a) the NSW legislation re civil registration and civl record keeping etc re marriages did not take effect until 1879 and even then NSW BDM did not enforce the requirement for the details re parents names etc, because of resistence from the various denominations,
b) the NSW BDM has not ever completed the reconcilation process the church records with their own civil registration records (some inner Sydney records are not yet reconciled.... funding issues existed even back in late 19th Century, and continue today, but I do wish they would get on with it though, as there are fewer and fewer people with the skills to read the late 19thC handwriting, as that style ceased being taught in NSW in the 1960s)
But regardless of where in NSW the 1865 marriage took place, the clergy interviewed the prospective couple, and obtained the names of their parents, etc made sure the two were eligible to marry (of age, or if minors, had consent, were not previously married, or could prove they were no longer married etc) ... That was a requirement of each denomination. So, from the mc transcript, you will find the name of the clergyman, and the place where he conducted the marriage ceremony. It is a matter of gaining access to the details he recorded.... ;)
Cheers, JM
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Aa ha now I get it possibly getting the the parish records may be doable
Thank you for your help I will now go down the path of parish records thank you once again
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The public tree has an attachment of a copy of the marriage certificate of John LACHLAN and Jane RAYNER. This copy was issued in September 2011 by NSW Registry.
The marriage took place in the Church of St John the Baptist, Mudgee, according to the rites of the Church of England , officiating minister: James Gunther, 30th March 1865. The consent of William RAYNER, the brides' father, was given as she was under 21. John signed and Jane made a cross; the witnesses' names are very hard to read - I think it is John Tormey and Maria Tormey. The spaces for parent details are bank.
I think Gypsy has this certificate but thought it may be useful to post the details. It's looking as though the church records may be the only way to go - unless the 1902 death turns up trumps.
Judith
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"..Jane Rayner died in USA in 1929 "
What is the story about Jane's life away from Australia?
When did she arrive in US, are there other family with her at the time?
What is on her death certificate?
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Hi there,
I have had a look at the online image of that mc for 1865. It seems to have been cropped around the margins, so I cannot confirm, but I think it is one of the many that have not been reconciled by NSW BDM.... I think the surname of the witnesses could also be deciphered as Tooney or Toovey ... I'll check some electoral roll entries for Mudgee etc.
In around 1912, NSW BDM staff reconciled quite a number of the pre 1895 marriage records, and thus those reconciled certificates include that clerical activity, it is usually noted on the outside of right hand side's margin, ie to the right of the "father's occupation" column.
I am attaching a snip of an image of an edited m.c. BLUE lines inserted where edits have removed names of people. RED lines inserted where the usual BLANKS for NSW BDM certs that are NOT YET reconciled. RED elipse for the usual position of NSW BDM markings showing that the church registers were accessed and the information in columns 5, 7, 9, 10 were obtained from the church register and the date that occurred and then the various clerks (three or more) each check, double check etc and initial.
I hope I am not violating copyright by inserting this image.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
If the bride, Jane Rayner had been 21 when marrying, then she would not have required consent to marry, and thus the mc would not have included her father's name in central section.
But he was William Rayner, a Farmer and most likely he was at McDonald's Creek ;D because ....
NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
William RAYNOR (with an "O") residence McDonald's Creek
William RAYNOR, junior, residence McDonald's Creek
There were also chaps surnamed RAYNOR nearby :
Robert with freehold at Pinebone, William with freehold at Pinebone
James, residence at Barragon
Henry, residence at Guntawang
and at Triangle Swamp there's 3 .... James, senior, with freehold; James junior residence; and John with freehold.
and at Sawpit Gully there's William and Thomas, both with freehold
and at Mullamuddy there's Samuel and Robert, both with freehold
Cheers, JM (off to look for likely surname for the witnesses !)
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Witnesses surnames possibilities:
NSW 1870 ER MUDGEE
No surnames commencing with TR on the roll
Between the surnames of Tompson and Towels there are:
TOOMEY, James, residence Church St (one of the main thoroughfare streets in Mudgee, very long street)
TOONEY, William, residence Market St (another main street)
TOONEY, John, household, Mortimer Lane Fingers crossed this could be the witness.....
PS, another way to tell if the mc has been reconciled, will be in the handwriting... the elusive blank columns will be in a different handwriting, and perhaps the signatures of the bride, groom and witnesses will be in their own hand rather than in the handwriting of the clerk who transcribed the information into the NSW BDM register.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there, :D
The mc I have looked at shows the marriage was 30th March 1865, not 20th .... only important if you are to follow up with seeking help with the parish records (either at the church which is still well used, or by the family history group if they have transcribed those 1865 local parish records)
And, there's also a question as to the spelling of the Rev'd .... the Walter Samson & Co., New South Wales National Directory 1867 - 1868 has :
Guntler, Rev J, Church of England clergyman, Mudgee .... I read the mc as Gunther, but I can often be mistaken, specially with "l" and "h" in that older style of handwriting ....
Cheers, JM
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I am positive the mc shown has date as 30 March.
As to the spelling of the clergyman - austcemindex has a photo of a memorial to Archdeacon James Gunther at St john's Mudgee, died 1879.
http://www.austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=6416495
(No RAYNERs, LACHLANs or TOOM(N)EYs at Mudgee on that site.)
On the public tree is an image of an article from The Mudgee Guardian, dated June 2 but unfortunately no year shown, on the RAYNER family - two brothers William and James who arrived in NSW 1837? from Bury St Edmunds, with wives and 7 children between them. They settled and farmed with a COX family and then in the Mudgee district, and produced more children - William and Mary Ann had 13 altogether. The article gives the name of a person who is researching the family - happy to PM if you would like it.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi All,
;) Looking to place this particular McDonald’s Creek circa 1865
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65461502 7 May 1864 Bell’s Life in Sydney and Sporting Chronicle
"The mail from Windeyer to Mudgee was stuck up last week by two armed men, near McDonald's Creek, and robbed of everything. Thc mail was in charge of a boy, who was told by the robbers to lie on the ground while they proceeded to overhaul and rifle the contents of the bags. The police went in pursuit of the robbers, but ....."
;) Looking to find the Drover or his parents in or around Mudgee, c 1864
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60555924 26 September 1864 Empire
The Empire has an extract from the Mudgee Liberal (newspaper) with a list (across part of 2 columns) of free selections made at Mudgee up to Sept 9th, 1864 for the previous 14 months ... I can read RAYNER, RAYNOR, but none with Laughlin or variants (not even Mc L ...)
As the groom was noted to be a Drover, it is possible his base was not in the Mudgee district....
;) Thinking about how to keep some pennies back for Gypsy’s travels
A way to avoid spending lots of pennies would be to purchase the transcript of just the one birth cert ie try for the youngest of their NSW born children.... It should list the names and ages of all the living older siblings, and note any who had not survived, at least by gender. That b.c. would also give you the then occupation of John, and the family’s then address, and the then ages of the child’s parents (ie the then ages of the couple who married at Mudgee 30 March 1865), to help confirm at least the age of the groom.
Transcription Agents ... quicker, cheaper, direct to your email inbox .... links on the NSW resources board here at RChat : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Googlemap finds a McDonald's Creek 10k from Mudgee on the Hill End Road - near Erudgere.
Judith
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Confirming Judith's location for that creek
Hopefully this shrunken link will get to the NLA online parish maps circa 1886
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0f9p/
"The New atlas of Australia [cartographic material] : the complete work containing over one hundred maps and full descriptive geography of New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia and Western Australia, together with numerous illustrations and copious indices / [edited by Robert McLean].
1886. MAP RaA 30. Part 83."
Cheers, JM
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Hi
From Gypsy’s OP, the children are named as Edith, Mary, William, Winifred, John Sydney, George Herbert , Ernest Vivian and Amy Maud.
From the NSW BDM online index these would most likely be the registrations for their births .... all registered in the Mudgee district, with as John and Jane as given names for the parents ... watch the spelling for their surname, and for initials for middle given names......
1866 William H Lachlan #11253
1868 Mary A K Loughlin #12716
1870 Minette Laughlan #12938 (not sure, perhaps this would be Winifred ?? or was Winifred born after Amy Maud ? perhaps 1882)
1872 John Sydney Lachlan #13238
1874 George Herbert Lachlan #14312
1876 Ernest Vivian Laughlan #15413
1878 Edith M Loughlan #16923
1880 Amy Maud M Laughlan #18957
So we already know that Jane was not yet 21 in 1865 .... so when Amy was born in 1880, Jane was not yet 36 years of age ... so a rhetorical question if I may ... what happened that stopped any further children to the couple ...
At reply #1 Judith gives you the link for the Transcription Agents...
Proper Question if I may, Gypsy ;D ;D ...
Do you need help with info on these children, or just with their elusive Mum and Dad ?
Cheers, JM
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So, looking at the NSW 1878 ER for MUDGEE (JM being extra careful with spelling of the surnames)
James Lachlan, residence, Gulgong
John Laughlin, residence, Green Swamp
John Loughane, residence, Log Paddock
Thomas Loughlin, residence, Home Rule
William Rayner, residence, Burrundulla
Thomas Rayner, residence, Burrundulla
James Rayner, residence, Triangle Swamp
William Rayner, residence, Mullamuddy
the next seven are surnamed RAYNOR, and are qualified to enrol as "residence"
George, at Pipeclay
Wm, at Pianbong
Shelley, at Pianbong
John, at Pipeclay creek
James junior at Limestone Flat
Thomas at Pipeclay
William at Pipeclay
The rest are surnamed RAYNOR, and have various other qualifications to enrol
George, leasehold, Mullamuddy
James senior freehold at Triangle Swamp *I think senior and junior indicate father/son relationship with two chaps both with same given name
Robert, freehold at Mullamuddy
Samuel, freehold at Mullamuddy
Thomas, freehold at Saw Pit Flat
William, freehold at Saw Pit Flat
William junior, freehold at McDonalds Creek
Cheers, JM
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Thanks everyone sorry to be a bit long winded had sick grand children come to stay. I have solved the mistery John M Laughlin didnt know about the M
father was Patrick Laughlin married Catherine Cash, Patrick was from Kilkenny Ireland and was sent to Australia as a convict Catherine was a paying passenger to Australia, now I have to find there marriage and there arrival into Aus
I have info on all of John and Janes children
Jane died 1929 in USA we dont know when she left the country she stayed up north for a long time John was a drover maybe he left her he died and was buried in Wollongong NSW in 1902 there is rumour that John was in trouble with the law? maybe he was locked up there are any number of reasons why they had no more children
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Convicts permission to marry
Date of permission 21 January 1843
Clergyman F. MURPHY, Sydney
Patrick LAUGHLAN, 32, Java, life sentence, holding a ticket of leave
Catherine CASH, 21, Moffitt, Came free
Debra :)
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Catherine's immigration 1841 Moffat:
CASHALL Catherine age 20yrs - Kilkenny Ireland - Housemaid - Roman Catholic - Can Read
Daughter of Robert and Bridget Cashall.
Under protection of her Uncle John Hennessey.
Uncle John arrived with his wife & three children 1841 Moffat:
Hennessey John age 32yrs - Kilkenny Ireland - Farm Labourer - Roman Catholic
Son of Laurence and Anne Hennessey both dead.
Hennessey Catherine age 28yrs - Killaloe Clare Ireland - Farm Servant - Roman Catholic
Daughter of Wm and Judith Page. Wife of John
Children:
John age 7yrs
Patrick age 4yrs
Margaret age 2yrs