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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: pinkshoes on Sunday 18 September 11 18:25 BST (UK)
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I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction to find out more about my ancestors career as a master mariner? I have his certificate number and have read that you can order copies of master mariners certificates - where and how do I do this?
I know my ancestor was the master on two different ships and I have been lucky enough to see the crew agreements etc for these at the record office. I have been trying to trace his career backwards and have got the name of a third ship he worked on (unknown position though) from the cre agreements (the bit where they list the previous ship they worked on). The crew agreements etc for this third ship were at the record office but they did not cover the year I know for sure that my ancestor was serving. This is where I reach a stop - is there any other way of finding out which ships a mariner worked on?
Many thanks
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Could you give us a name and date and place of Birth ? Together with the relevent certificate number please.
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Hi Pinkshoes,
If he was a Master Mariner, his name should appear in the Captain's registers.
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm (http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm)
From that you can get his Masters number (usually a C followed by a number) and obtain his Masters certificates, which will list most if not all of the ships your ancestor sailed on. These certificates used to be available from the Caird library at the National Maritime Museum in London ( from where I got my ancestors records a few years ago). However, I now understand they are elsewhere.
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Documents/50-lloyds-of-London-captains-registers-and-related-sources.pdf
Once you have those, each ship can be researched in some depth relatively easily online via various websites and institutions. And if you post their names here, you may even find others know about or are researching the same vessels too.
You should also post his details here - name, birth place, age - as he may appear in other records, such as newspaper archives which other people may have access to.
Regards
Ann
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Thank you both so much.
My ancestors name was Oliver Paskins and his certificate number is C33712 (at least I hope that's what that means!). He was born C1826 in Sussex and was the master mariner on ships called Swift and Spring. The Spring sank off the coast of Sweden in 1874. I know he also served on a ship called Wild Dayrell, but I don't know in what capacity.
Would the sinking of Spring appear in any newspaper reports?
Any further information I could obtain on any of Oliver's career would be great.
Thanks
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Hi Pinkshoes,
I had a look at the 19th century newspapers site but alas couldn't find any reference to the sinking of Spring. There are references though to the movement of both the Spring and Swift under the command of Paskins. There were 21 such references for the Swift between 1883 and 1888 and 3 for the Spring spanning 1866 and 1872. The Spring ws carrying coals and ballast. I found two references to the movement of the Wild Dayrell in 1861 and 1867 under Hedycock and then Hawkins.
Regards,
Phil
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I am trying to find my ancestor, Robert Godsoe, who was a Master Mariner from Liverpool, born 1835 and died some time between 1864-1870. I don't know the name of any ship he captained.
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Hi
You can check for Master mariners certificate numbers in the mid nineteenth century by checking the Mercantile Navy List which included them up until around 1864.
Google have digitised some of these books and you can view them on www.maritimearchives.co.uk
There is no entry for Oliver Paskins in 1864 which suggests that he was uncertificated.
Robert Godsoe's cert no was 11342 and he was awarded a masters cert (oc) in 1858 in Liverpool. NMM Greenwich should hold the masters cert plus any application form which will include details of the ships he served on up until the exam. They charge around £25 for a copy of the documentation. contact manuscripts section.
ernestjames
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Thank you so much for the information on Robert Godsoe; it will help a great deal with my research.
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Having just started researching two brothers who were Master Mariners I was delighted to find this thread.
Following the advice I have found I checked the Index to the Captains Registers of Lloyd’s of London and found them:
NAUGHTON, John b. Ayrshire 1832 C1816 Glasgow 1860
NAUGHTON, Thomas Elliot b. Ayrshire 1840 C29135 Glasgow 1868
Can someone advise me which resources are available to learn details of their careers?
Regards
Pat
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Hi Pat!
Two successes - how wonderful! ;D
So, as they're in the Captain's registers, you should be able to get the career details - Master Certificates and such like - via the LMA http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/Events/LloydsCaptainsRegisters.htm These should also give you many other details - such as the ships they were on, when they were born, where and when they passed their exams etc - and be able to work out a timeline of where they went, on what vessel and when. Once you have the ships names, you will also have the ships Official Numbers (you'll see it written as O.N. in some places) and will be able to track most, if not all, via various websites, newspapers and other archives. You may even be able to get images of some of them from various places. Let's know when you get to that point and I, and other's, can point you in the right direction and/or help.
Lucky you!!
Regards
Ann
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This site is amazing :) I also have an ancestor whose occupation was master mariner. I have just found him on the captain's register. Thank you.
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Ooooh! How lovely! I envy you both! Thoroughly enjoyed researching my mariners!
Don't know if either of you can get in to London at all, but I have to say the big dusty old ledgers that hold the new Master's names are a joy to behold if you can. I burst into tears when I first saw my 2x great grandfather's name listed there when they were held at the Guildhall library. Oh, I know it's only a ledger, but knowing that that bit of writing was contemporary with him and knowing what he'd gone through to get to that position and get his name listed there and, knowing what happened to him afterwards...I'm still choked just thinking about it.
Let us know how you get on and, if I can help looking for ships once you know them, no problem.
Regards
Ann
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Hi Ann
Many thanks for your help. I just spoke to the archavist at LMA, very helpful but if you want them to do it it's £5 a page plus £12 handling fee :o
So it will be a personal visit and I expect you can photograph the documents.
Thank you for your offer of further assiatance which I'm sure I will need ;)
This site is the best ;D
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Good grief!
Ah well, if you can get there yourself, it's probably for the best anyway. However, you might try ordering them through the maritime museum
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/masters-certificates-request-form
Not sure how expensive that is, but I seem to recall going all the way there only to find I had to order them anyway, and they came a few weeks later. You should now have the details you need from the other list you looked at above.
Regards
Ann
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There are also records of service at TNA Kew in the series BT122
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=1593&GPE=False&MARKER=0
Although LMA is your best bet, there may be extra info at Kew.
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Many thanks seaweed I will have to explore this avenue as well :)
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hi everybody
ann - i know what you mean about seeing records about ancestors. I recently found my master mariner's grave stone. He is one of my g-g-g- grandfathers.
William Curtis 1807 - 1885. It was a very emotional moment. Sadly, i have found no birth record so the opportunity to find out more about his life is fantastic. Will keep you posted about ships etc when i have done my research.
A huge thanks to everyone for posting advice and tips.
ecila
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I am looking for Records for my grandfather who was passed as a Master Mariner in 1924. I do have a copy of his certificate.
From what I have read, if I need these records, it means a trip to Kew or hire a researcher, They do not mean to make it easy for anyone, do they.
This grandfather I never knew about till about 2 years ago. By sheer determination I have found he remarried as he was widowed and then lived Woolwich, London till he died 1946. Since then I have made contact with his second family who never knew he had a previous marriage and family. We are all in the dark as to his records and are having problems. Freedom of Information Act was useless as they told me his Records cannot be released before 2030. I will be well under the ground by then.
Any suggestions please?
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If the advice given already here is of no use, then I'm afraid I don't think I can help. Searching for mariners post 1900-1946 is too recent for me to be able to offer any other suggestions as it's not in my experience.
All I can say is the folk at the Caird library in the Maritime Museum London and those at the Liverpool Maritme Archive couldn't have been more helpful. You could try giving them a ring, see if they can suggest anything. Given how recent his death was, you may have to prove your relationship to him, but they may be able to come up with something given the extenuating circumstances. Other than that, you could try posting his name here, see if anyone has come across him in their own research (a longshot, I know). Or any known details of vessels he may have been on. Or have you tried the newspapers to see if his name appears, they may give clues to the ships he was Master of.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Regards
Ann
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Have we got a name and his certificate number? Lloyds Captains Register go's up to 1947 so he should be entered there.
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I will do my best as the last certificate is a bit faded. These were found recently in boxes in the loft by a granddaughter of my grandfathers second family which I will copy.
(1) BY THE LORDS OF THE COMMITTEE OF PRIVY COUNCIL FOR TRADE.
Certificate of Competency.
Master of a Hometrade Passenger Ship.
HENRY PHILIP PRESSEY. 19TH Jan. 1912
(2) Certificate of Examination. 104850.
Issued at the Port of Dover. 16th Jan. 1912. Top left hand corner. Looks like. 8.152
(3) CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSIONER. WELLINGTON GARDENS. LONDON. W.1.
Master in the War Department Fleet Under the War Office.
Signed by L.C. M. Weekes. Secretary. Dated 19/09/1924
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Hi All,
I've just started researching my ancestor's career as a Master Mariner and can follow all of the links in the previous posts, but have the issue of being in Australia and not able to visit to have a look at the documents in the UK.
Does anyone know how I might be able to get this info from here (or if it's not possible)?
Details are:
John THOMAS
Born 1810 Cardigan, Wales
Died 1867 St Mary's Islands, Scilly Islands
CC: 47682
Captain of Glen Roy (ship no. 13288) from 1858 to 1867
KEW ref: 124/9&10
I'm not sure if he was on any other ships before this.
Many thanks for any advice you can give as to my next step.
Mel
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A little about the ship GLEN ROY
GLEN ROYwas a schooner or brigantine built in 1839 at Hillsborough River, Prince Edward Island, Canada. She was originally registered at Charlottestown, Her registry was transferred to Liverpool in 1841 owned by T.McKay
From 1860 until about 1870, when was sold to Whitehaven owners she was a brigantine, in these years owned by T.Thomas of Cardigan and operating in the Mediterranean trade. Lloyd's Register 1867/68 lists voyage Cardiff/Mediterranean with coal .
GLEN ROY was reported to have sailed from Whitehaven bound for Dublin with coal on the 24th February 1873 and was assumed to have foundered in a severe storm on Tuesday, 25th February1873.
None of the above concerns your question but important detail.
The easiest way to find his certificate detail is to contact NMM Greenwich using this form.
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/masters-certificates-request-form
If its no go there, post again and we will see what can be done at Kew (btw The correct piece numbers are BT124/9 and BT124/10) but in all honesty your best bet is Lloyd's Captains Register at London Metropolitan Archives. I would have thought the cost they quoted for a search was reasonable. However my guess is he only captained one vessel but theres only one way to find out.
Also search Lloyd's Lists. These will tell you where GLEN ROY voyaged to and maybe some personal detail on her captain and owner. I think Australian Maritime Museum have copies.
On Crew Agreement has survived in Kew piece BT99/152
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=3174103&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2C13288&accessmethod=0
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Thanks so much. I'll try those suggestions :)
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I have found a John Thomas born Cardigan 1810 as Master of the Cardigan registered vessel FRIENDS, Official number 1720 in 1863.
His certificate number is 47684. Maybe a typo, suggest you check it out.
Details are in Pembrokeshire Archives. File reference T/RS/1863
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Hello
I wonder if anybody could offer some guidance . My ancestor Henry Crosbie and his sons Richard and Samuel are listed on the Liverpool 1881 census as river boatmen , barge. I have tried to find them in the Maritime Museum with no luck. I thought that somebody knowledgeable on mariners might be able to advise.
Many thanks
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Having read this thread, I would like a little assistance please with a 2 x great grandfather
From the Captains Registers of Lloyd’s of London I have found
COWARD, William b. Workington 1819 S37521
vol.3 1855-1860, 1862-1873; vol.1874-1879; vol.30 1880-1883
He died in Cardiff in 1892
If I have understood the guidance previously offered, the next stage is to look at the records at the LMA as this will give vessels, etc. Is this correct?
How do I get hold of a copy of his certificate? The link for the NMM at Grreenwich appears to be for a request to view a certificate.
Why are some registration numbers prefixed with C & some with S?
Finally, is there an equivalent list for Master Mariners in the late 1700's?
tks
Edward
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If I have understood the guidance previously offered, the next stage is to look at the records at the LMA as this will give vessels, etc. Is this correct?
His Master's certificates should list all/most of the vessels he's been on in his career. As far as I'm aware you can still order those from the Caird library at the National Maritime Museum - where I got mine. It might be worth giving the manuscript department a ring just to verify, they're really helpful.
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/
Once you have a list of ships, you can look at Lloyds registers for each ship, in newspapers, and even google, to find further information - where he was, when etc - and you can ask here, of course. There're plenty of wreck sites, shipping sites etc out there to help - such as this one
http://library.mysticseaport.org/initiative/VMSearch.cfm
Someone more experienced in these matters should be able to help you with your other questions. But I don't think there is a similar list for the 1700s - I think the registers only began in the 1840s. Crew agreements went back futher than that though, but you'd need to know the name of the vessel he was on first for those to be of any use.
Regards
Ann
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Ann, thanks for the information
Edward
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I'll call them in September
From the Royal Museums Greenwich website
Caird Library temporary closure due to Olympics
Royal Museums Greenwich
As you may have seen on the Museum’s website, the Caird Library will close to all visitors from Monday 2 July until Tuesday 4 September 2012 inclusive for the preparation and holding of the Olympics and Paralympics in Greenwich Park.
During this period there will be no access to the Library as the reading room will be in use by LOCOG (London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games). Written and telephone enquiries and the remote reprographics service will also be unavailable from this date.
The last order date for the consultation of offsite items is 12.30 on Thursday 21 June, for consultation on Tuesday 26 June. The last day that the Library will be open is Saturday 30 June.
The Caird Library will reopen to the public at 10.00 on Wednesday 5 September 2012. Written and telephone enquiries and the remote reprographics service will also resume from this time. For full opening times from 5 September, see Visiting the Library.
We apologise for the inconvenience caused to our users. The Archive & Library staff will be using the closure period to rehouse offsite collections to bring them onsite, and to reorganise stores to make future retrievals more efficient.
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If his certificate number was 37521 you should be able to download it for free from the National Archive. Never used it myself so cannot tell you what is contained.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8835315&queryType=1&resultcount=23
Beware of tracing ships by names alone. If it was a British registered vessel after 1854 it should have a unique Official number which stays with the vessel even if it changes name, (a common occurrence) as long as the ship is on the British register.
Never trust internet sources without double checking preferably with an original document.
Be aware that several vessels from the same era could have the same name.
I downloaded the said document and he is recorded there.
The first entry says he sailed on The Cardiff registered vessel EMPIRE official number 33079 to Quebec. Just to reinforce my statement. There were at least six vessels around with that name in 1860.
I suggest you download the document. He is in part 2. Come back with any questions
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Seaweed thanks for this
The Empire needs more research but the Mermaid was a little easier - but it does need validating.
From http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Clippers/Mermaid%281853%29.html
1883 November 10
Left Quebec for Liverpool with a cargo of timber.
1883 December 13
Drifted ashore in a severe gale at Horse Bank off Southport, England. The crew abandoned the wreck in two boats and were saved by the Southport and Lytham lifeboats.
1883
Wrecked at Leightham,
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The first entry says he sailed on The Cardiff registered vessel EMPIRE official number 33079 to Quebec. Just to reinforce my statement. There were at least six vessels around with that name in 1860.
Can you suggest any websites that can help with further information on the Empire?
tks
Edward
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Bob Sanders is the man to talk to
http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/SHIPIND.html
Also Dr David Jenkins at the Welsh Maritime Museum
http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/2327/
and the excellent Welsh Mariners site presented by Dr Reg Davis
http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/
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I'll call them in September
From the Royal Museums Greenwich website
Caird Library temporary closure due to Olympics
Royal Museums Greenwich
As you may have seen on the Museum’s website, the Caird Library will close to all visitors from Monday 2 July until Tuesday 4 September 2012 inclusive for the preparation and holding of the Olympics and Paralympics in Greenwich Park.
During this period there will be no access to the Library as the reading room will be in use by LOCOG (London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games). Written and telephone enquiries and the remote reprographics service will also be unavailable from this date.
The last order date for the consultation of offsite items is 12.30 on Thursday 21 June, for consultation on Tuesday 26 June. The last day that the Library will be open is Saturday 30 June.
The Caird Library will reopen to the public at 10.00 on Wednesday 5 September 2012. Written and telephone enquiries and the remote reprographics service will also resume from this time. For full opening times from 5 September, see Visiting the Library.
We apologise for the inconvenience caused to our users. The Archive & Library staff will be using the closure period to rehouse offsite collections to bring them onsite, and to reorganise stores to make future retrievals more efficient.
Oh well isn't that just typical. Hope you get some joy after your wait!
Ann
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Some time ago I was asking about my relation, Robert Godsoe, a master mariner. I have found out a lot about him from various internet site. He was a Master Mariner of a ship called 'Elizabeth Bentley' in 1854 and 1858, working from Liverpool to New Brunswick. He married in Southport in 1864 and had a son in 1865. However, by 1871 his wife was a widow. I cannot find a death between 1865 and 1871 on dry land. How can I find a possible death at sea?
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Mariner's deaths are notoriously difficult to track down. Not all were registered and often the best you can hope for is a newspaper article or such like telling you his ship's sunk.
Questions I'd be thinking about include:
I know you say he was from Liverpool. But was that where he was he born? Deaths of Scottish nationals for example, tended to be registered there. I understand it's similar for Irish nationals. (Not sure of the dates when that started).
Have you looked in the newspapers for him - did his vessel sink? As the Master, he's likely to have been named even if the crew weren't.
Have you done a rough search on his name in the records - i.e. messed about with the spelling in case it's been misindexed or misspelt?
One other suggestion I have for you is more about those he left behind. Did he leave a wife and family? Have you looked into what happened to them? The Liverpool Seaman's Orphan Institution (RLSOI) usually helped families like them out, even if the children didn't enter the instution themselves. If you contact them and give them some details, they'll look them up and tell you. Then you can go down to the Maritime Museum at the Albert and they'll give you copies of the paperwork. enquiries@rlsoi-uk.org
Regards
Ann
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Through my local library I have online access to the British Library Newspaper archives via the gale website. I noticed that old newspapers had daily sailings and always included the names of ships captains when leaving/arriving in port and when a ship sank. If you're lucky you might find a clue to your ancestor.
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Hi, sorry I'd assumed you have his Master's certs. But I've just checked. And he was on other ships than that. Don't you have them yet?
Ann
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I also found a Robert Godsoe, Master, sailing out of Liverpool to south America on the Copernicus (a steamer) in 1864.
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According to the Mercantile Navy list he was still listed in 1864. His Certificate number was 11342.
Ancestry now has records online regarding Captains Certificates see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,615197.0.html
If you cannot find him there try Lloyds Captains Register. Surnames beginning with "G" are not indexed online so you would have to ask London Metropolitan Archives.
ANN could you give the names of the other ships with dates please.
There are Merchant seamans records as oppossed to captains records for Robert Godsoe born Liverpool on FindMyPast
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Here you go seaweed:
He was mate on these:
John Dowde or Dowdie, May to Aug 55
Something Smith, a St Johns, NB vessel, May to Sept 56
The Perthsire, ON 34590, Nov 56 - Apr 57
And the Madras, ON 6890 Sep 57- Mar 58.
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I have the Copernincus at Malta in Jan 64 with Godsoe as Master. Then at Alexandria in Feb. If he's still aboard in Oct that year, he's headed from Rangoon for Falmouth. It looks like a change of master after that. The vessel seems to have been owned by Messers Stephen and Sons and had a sister ship, the Newton.
The only Godsoe I can see after that is on a vessel called the Saladin a screw steamer, Nov 64/Jan 65 - heading for Permabuco??? He's still aboard in May 65, but I think by June he's been replaced. Can't say whether it's him or not at present though.
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Thank you Ann, its appreciated. Is there nothing later than that?
I also found him as Captain of the Liverpool vessel SALADIN 16854 in 1865 so at least he was alive up until that point. I cannot find a death at sea or overseas for him. It looks like most of his later voyages were to South America.
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No, can't see anything for him after that.
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It may be worth obtaining his records from here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C408237
I know it says 1871- 1890 but it may be possible that he died in early 1871.
You don't need all of the document. just ask for the records of Robert Godsoe certificate number 11342. It may well be there are none but until you ask you will not know.
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Not quite a master mariner, but my grand father was a marine engineer. He was born in 1876 and lived in Liverpool. He was missing on 1901 census and presumably away at sea. I have his qualification certificate in a tin box - beautiful. I would like to know which ships he was on. I have a photo of him wearing a PSNC badge in his lapel, so I presume he worked for them.
Please help me . Oh and by the way his uncle was Robert Godsoe, mentioned earlier in this post.
Regards Lynne
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You need to visit TNA Kew and look in the series BT142 (index in BT141)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3180
As far as I am aware these records are not available online. No doubt if they are others will direct you.
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Hi, I've eventually found Alexander Fletcher ;D ;D and his father Hugh.
Alex was on SS Sobralense , booth line going to Para northern Brazil in 1901. His father Hugh , 1910 on the Atahualpa 102.144 don't know which line or where to ???
Any other info would be appreciated or pictures ::) Please
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ATAHUALPA Official number 102144 Built Aberdeen 1894 owned sometime in 1910 by the Iquitos Steamship co.ltd. Liverpool. Later by Booth Line. Some ships changed names and owners quiet frequently so the only way to get entirely accurate details is to look at the vessels registration papers. These are held in the National Archive in piece BT110/484/12.
It would seem during the period, her regular sailings were to and from the Brazilian port of Iquitos
A photograph here
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20A/index31.html
SOBRALENSE Official number 91156 like you say owned by Booth Line sometime in 1901. Formerly owned by the Red Cross Line. Built Barrow 1884.
Registration papers in BT110/740/67
Cannot easily find photograph. You may be able to find one under the vessels former or later names if indeed she had a former or later name.
For details of where both vessels sailed to/from you need to consult "Lloyds List"
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ResLloydsLocations.html\
Her crew agreements for the year 1901 are held by Liverpool City Libraries. Search via official number.
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Thank you , THANKYOU. :D
I will save that site for future use. It looks very useful.
The crew list records have recently been put on Ancestry, which is very useful and has given me all sorts of useful info. It only applies to Liverpool registered ships.
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Just jumping on this thread....
Seaweed you write:
You need to visit TNA Kew and look in the series BT142 (index in BT141)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3180
I tried some years back to find the record of a great uncle. I do not have his certificate number just dates of Birth etc. Is there some connection with Greenwich perhaps to get his certificate details and then approach TNA to see record of his career?
In the end, I was lucky to get a detailed newspaper obit that gave a full account of his life