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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: yogibear82 on Thursday 15 September 11 10:21 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
As you can see from the title of the post this is exactly what I am doing!! I have been trying to research the Rogan family living in Whitehaven for some time now and just about every single member seems to have been a coal miner. However I have a few questions which I hope somebody will kindly answer for me.
I am assuming that coal mining in Whitehaven was a reserved occupation but could men enlist for the war if they wanted to?
If so which regiment would they have gone in or would it have been straight into the territorials?
How many pits were operational in Whitehaven and for how long and is there some sort of mining archive somewhere?I have managed to go back as far as the early 1800's was there a pit opened then?
Hope all this makes sense and thanks in advance!
Yogi
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See THE CUMBERLAND COALFIELD from a pamphlet published by the National Coal Board in the 1950s. http://www.cmhrc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/cumberlandcf.htm
And http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/cms/document/1842_Cumberland.pdf
Stan
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Thanks for that Stan,
I can understand a bit more of the Irish connection!
Yogi
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I am assuming that coal mining in Whitehaven was a reserved occupation but could men enlist for the war if they wanted to?
Hi Yogi
You don't say which war, but in November 1915 four lists of occupations scheduled as vitally important for war work and other essential requirements were published.
List A; Occupations required for production or transport of munitions supplied by the Ministry of Munitions.
List B; Coal Mining.
List C;
(a) Agricultural Occupations.
(b) Certain Occupations in mining etc.
(c) Railway Servants employed in the manipulation of traffic and in the maintenance of the lines and rolling stock.
List D; List of Occupations (Reserved Occupations) of cardinal importance for the maintenance of some other branches of trade and industry.
Each of these lists had a detailed description of the occupations included, which were subject to revision as the industrial situation of the country demanded. More occupations in Food and Clothing were added in Dec 1915.
A schedule of reserved occupation was issued in September 1939, Changes to the Schedule of Reserved Occupations were announced periodically up to 1941. There is a list for WW2 here
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW2/conscription.htm
Stan
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thanks again stan!
Was the local reg the Border Reg by the way?
Yogi
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thanks again stan!
Was the local reg the Border Reg by the way?
Yogi
It looks like it see http://www.1914-1918.net/border.htm
Stan
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Hi Yogi
This site also covers mines here in Whitehaven. Doin't be put off by the Durham mining heading. They cover mines all over.
http://www.dmm.org.uk (http://www.dmm.org.uk)
Yes, the main local regiment was the Border Regiment, though many of my Irish relis also joined Irish regiments from over here.
I don't know about official rules, but certainly I know of miners who did serve in the armed forces abroad.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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By the way, is there anything else or anything more specific in the local records we can help you with?
There are electora; rolls for Whitehaven in the record office here, which should include a list of absent voters for the war. I could look on those if i had names and probably addresses or at ;east an idea of area.
If the names are quite recent you might want to use a pm though.
Also, if you tyhink they may have served, have you looked on the medal rolls and service / pension records online though the latter two didn't all survive.
Just a few thoughts.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hi Yogi
This site also covers mines here in Whitehaven. Doin't be put off by the Durham mining heading. They cover mines all over.
http://www.dmm.org.uk (http://www.dmm.org.uk)
There is a list of mines at http://www.dmm.org.uk/collnear/h015.htm
Stan
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Thanks Emms and Stan for all your suggestions!
I suppose what I really need to start with, seeing as the majority of the family were associated with the mines, is whether there is some definitive register of pit employees. I dont even know which pit any of them worked at! Would there have been a family tradition of working at the same pit down through the generations? I have info from birth and marriage certs going back to about 1830 where the male profession was entirely coal mining even back down the mothers line! As there is no-one in the family to talk to I really dont know which way to go now.
Well and truly stuck!
Yogi
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Hi Yogi
Searching on the link below reveals two relatively early mining disasters involving Rogan family members.
http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/index.html
There nare also a group of Rogans on the search on the site above.
They aren't all at the same pit. I guess it depended where the opportunoties for work were.
I had a very quick look at one report in the record office and two of the above were mentioned in 1931.
I'll let you look at the details yourself, as much of it's still relatively recent.
So evidently they weren't all in the same mine.
I couldn't see an absent voters list on the shelves but I'd really need addresses anyway.
If you pm me some addresses I'lkl look and let you know any nwho were listed.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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I am assuming that coal mining in Whitehaven was a reserved occupation but could men enlist for the war if they wanted to?
If so which regiment would they have gone in or would it have been straight into the territorials?
Hello yogibear82,
Regarding your above questions, if it is before, or just after WW1 that you are enquiring about, many Whitehaven miners were Territorials and they went over with the BEF early in 1914. Generally speaking, the majority of these were soldiers with the 5th Battalion The Border Regiment (the local Infantry Territorial Battalion for West Cumberland).
In addition, like just about every other community in the country, in Whitehaven and West Cumberland there were numerous recruitment meetings to enlist men regardless of whether they were miners or not. This was the time when the Earl of Lonsdale issued his famous poster "Are You A Man, or Are You a Mouse?"
One related event you may come across in a number of written works about this time is that Mr H.H. Walker (Mayor of Whitehaven) went over to Lowther to ask Lord Lowther to stop recruiting as the number of miners going off to war would affect coal production. (Lord Lowther said he was too busy appointing the officers to his new battalion to see Mr Walker).
Although many of the West Cumbrian miners enlisted to one of the 'New' Battalions of the Border Regiment, some were recruited into other regiments. For example many West Cumbrian Roman Catholics - a lot of whom were miners - enlisted to the Tyneside Irish Brigade (Northumberland Fusiliers), Partly this was because at that time West Cumberland was part of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Hexham & Newcastle. Another reason for enlisting to the 'Tyneside Irish' was because at that time (1914) many West Cumbrian Catholic families regarded themselves as 'Irish' more than 'English'.
At the outbreak of WW2 (1939) there were still many West Cumbrian miners who were Territorials, or Royal Navy Reserve, etc). So they were called up straight away. Once again many of these miners were in the 5th Battalion The Border Regiment. They went over to France as part of the BEF of 1940 and were caught up in the Dunkirk disaster.
There were, of course, some miners in the Royal Engineers, Royal Artillery, RAMC (Medical Corps) etc. Really, it all depends ................!
If, as I suspect, you are mainly looking for mining & military records of specific relatives it would be helpful if you had a service number to begin finding their records.
I have tried to keep this a relatively simple summary. I hope it may have helped you a little.
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Are you the Jos from Whitehaven who I met in Whitehaven Records Office on Saturday morning? :)
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Joseph
Thank you for the fascinating local military information. I enjoyed reading. It takes the real experts to know how the regiments fitted into the local community, no matter what you look at!
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Jos,
Many many thanks for that fascinating information! It was really interesting particularly about many of the RC miners feeling more Irish than English. In my case this is all starting to fit together. All the people that fit into this complicated web have Irish names such as Rogan, Kennedy, McCallan. I have still not come to the point where they actually came over from Ireland but the connection is definitely there! The whole clannish thing is becoming more and more definite, with whole families just sticking together in the same place,usually in the vicinity of Newhouses, all within the same occupation for many years. This simple fact should make it easier but doesnt!!
Unfortunately I dont have any service records,numbers or even people I can ask for info so I am trying to piece together the possibility of some of the men going to war However I would never have known or found out about the Tyneside Reg and its connections with Whitehaven.Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place all this time.
Thanks again Jos- another piece in the giant jigsaw!!
Yogi
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Hi There is one entry on CWGC for a William Rogan son of Charles and Catherine
Only Rogan in the Border refiment. Unfortunately no home address given and of course they may have joined other regiments.
Best wishes
Emms
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Are you the Jos from Whitehaven who I met in Whitehaven Records Office on Saturday morning? :)
Likely.
My Dad was the Cumberland Area Secretary for NACODS (the Pit Deputies Union. His eldest brother used to be NUM Secretary at Harrington (Lowca) No 11 Pit for many years and took part in the 1946 'Victory March' in London. Both of them remained working in the mines during WW2, but were also in Moresby Home Guard (wearing a Border Regiment cap badge).
Another of my Dad's brothers was also working as a coal miner when WW2 broke out in September 1939. However, because he was in the St John's Military Hospital Reserve he was immediately called up (RAMC).
The call up papers arrived while uncle was working at the pit (Walkmill). He was on the train out of Bransty Station that night. Anyone interested will find his story on the BBC "People's War" website. There were many West Cumbrian miners called up for WW2 (as well as WW1) and not all of them went into the Border Regiment.
As the originator of this thread was asking about any of the Rogan family who were miners and in the army, there is one gentleman I know in Whitehaven, now in his 90s, who worked as a coal miner, was called up in 1939. He was with the 5th Bn Border Regiment in the Dunkirk evacuation of 1940. Later in the war he joined the Commandos.
There is another gentleman I know well, also in his 90s (although in his case not related to the Rogans so far as I know) who was a miner and again was with the 5th Bn Border Regt at Dunkirk. I am not going to mention the names of any living person on this forum, but both of these gentlemen were close friends of Billy Lee MM who lost his life in the 1947 William Pit disaster. Again, Billy Lee MM was a coal miner before WW2, was called up and served with the 5th Border early in the war but was wounded at Dunkirk. He gained the MM for a daring escape later in the year.
So there were many West Cumbiran miners who served in the Armed Forces in both World Wars.