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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: jomcd967 on Wednesday 14 September 11 12:56 BST (UK)
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I am at a dead end searching for my husbands GGGrandfather William Pitt. He came to Australia in 1853 (from Sunderland, Durham) and became a very successful scenic artist/painter in Melbourne. What little is known of him prior to Aust says that he worked at the Lyceum in London and was the son of a successful scenic artist. My dilemma is that I don't know where he was born (in 1820), who his parents were and can't find him anywhere in 1841 or 1851. I am not aware of any marriage before he left either. I am hoping I can track him through the theatre world somehow. Gale has some newspaper references (on theatre ads) for scenery painted by W Pitt in the right time frame, but from there I am totally stumped!
Any help, suggestions or miracles are gratefully accepted.
Regards, Jo ???
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A possible, which also might explain why details of his parents' are sparse in Australia:
I can find a reference at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a to a William Pitts, artist, who in 1830/1831 was at 5 Watkins Terrace Ebury Street Pimlico.
In 1841 there are the following people at Watkins Terrace (note, no relationships given, ages 20 and up rounded down to nearest 5 years)
HO107/0732 9/5/3
Mary Pitts, 45, occupation "independent" born out of county
Thomas, 25, artist, b. in county
William, 20, sculptor, b. out of county
Mary, 20, b. in county
Joseph, 20, sculptor, b. in county
Frederick, 9, b. in county
William Pitts, "the sculptor" of 5 Watkin's Terrace is recorded as having committed suicide in April 1840 (if you have access to the Gale database, you can find these records). He took laudanum, and from the reports it sounds as if he was suffering from depression (verdict was "temporary insanity"). William was said to be around 60 years of age, and Thomas Pitts is mentioned as his eldest son.
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Hi Jorose,
Thank you so much for looking in to this for me. I had found this record and whilst I haven't discounted it, I'm still not very sure it is the right one. Pro - William travelled on the Birman in 1853 to Australia, accompanied by his defacto wife (using the name Jane Pitt) also on board was a Thomas Pitt aged 32 (Williams age was given as 30, should have been 33). Thomas has not been found anywhere since in Australia and is unlikely to have remained here. Cons - William is Pitt, not Pitts, in all Australian records. Pitts is definitely the name of the 1841 family. William Snr is the son of a very successful silversmith/sculpturing family (all Pitts), no indication of being involved in theatre or painting at all. All indication is that the Pitt family were painters, not sculptors. I am unable to find William (1820) anywhere in 1851, or 1841, if as I suspect, this is not the right William. Any other avenues that you can consider would be hugely appreciated. I still think that the answer lies in some collection of theatre records somewhere. Would a scenic artist need to undertake an apprenticeship for this profession? As I say, I'm totally stumped!
Best Wishes,
Jo :) :) :)
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Camberwell St Giles baptisms
1817 Aug 31, William John, s/o William & Mary PITTS, Camberwell, an artist
1817 Aug 31, Thomas, s/o William & Mary PITTS, Camberwell, an artist
Ian C
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Jo,
From the 1881 England Census
(St. Pancras) London)
6 Cantlowes Rd
William Pitt age 62 b. around 1819 in Birmingham (artist/painter)
Jeanetta Pitt wife, age 55 b. Worster (?)
Eugenie A. Fowler niece 22
Mark (?) Coleman son 18 (hard to read)
This family is also listed in the 1871 England Census St. Mary, Paddington London
William (artist) is 52 and Jeanetta is 45
1841 Census Warwickshire - Birmingham - St Phillip - District 6
William Pitt 50 Occupation: Japaner (sp?)
Elizabeth Pitt 50
William Pitt 22 b. Warwickshire, Birmingham abt 1819 occupation Artist
Peter Pitt 23 Japaner
Ann Pitt 19 Dressmaker
Eliza Pitt 17
Samuel Pitt 15
Joseph Pitt 13
Ann Evans 7
Perhaps he did not stay in Australia and eventually came back to England???
If this is your family of course! ;)
Deb
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http://www3.slv.vic.gov.au/latrobejournal/issue/latrobe-84/t1-g-t8.html
http://www.liveperformance.com.au/halloffame/williampitt1.html
these may help
sylvia
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Hi Ian & Deb,
The Camberwell baptisms are definitely a possibility for the Pitts family of sculptors, the Birmingham one is ruled out as they are tracked right through 1841 and onwards. William never left Australia and died in Melbourne in 1879. I do believe that they are related though, as previous online chats on rootsweb discuss this family and mention that there were several generation of brothers/twins who were artists in that line. Unfortunately the posts were quite old and I have received no responses from those contacted on there.
I really appreciate the time and effort that you are undertaking on my behalf, I would dearly love to find Williams origins prior to Australia.
Regards,
Jo :) :) :)
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Thanks Sylvia,
I have just about all there is on William in Australia, including having been in touch with Dr Mimi Colligan: ‘William Pitt Senior’, in Companion to Theatre in Australia, Currency Press, 1995, one of the sources of the article. It is prior to coming here that I am totally stumped! One of the online references says the following "William Pitt Painter and scene-painter, the son of a successful English scene painter, arrived at Port Melbourne on 27 January 1853 with his wife Jane as unassisted migrants. An experienced scene-painter from the London Lyceum Theatre, he was soon employed by the theatrical entrepreneur George Seth Coppin.Biographer: Maslen, Joan Source of info: The Dictionary of Australian Artists: painters, sketchers, photographers and engravers to 1870 Date written: Date: 1992"
If his father was even a moderately successful artist I was hoping that he would be easily tracked, but no luck!
Any thoughts or suggestions are enormously appreciated,
Regards,
Jo :) :) :)
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Have you tried Australian newspapers? You may have to go to local Library and get an e-services card that will allow you internet access to the newspapers.
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Hi Yendis,
I have everything I need from the Australian papers, it's England I need to find him in. I have access to Gale and have searched there, but as you can imagine with name William Pitt, everything relates to the former Prime Minister! I have tried all versions of search criteria and the closest I get is the W Pitt mentioned on earlier post.
Thank you for your suggestion though,
Cheers, Jo :) :) :)
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Could this article be of interest to you Jo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pitt_%28architect%29
Especially this part of the article:
"William Pitt was born in 1855 two years after his parents William Pitt, an artist, and Jane, née Dixon emigrated to Australia from Sunderland in England"
Deb
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Thanks Deb,
The William that was born in 1855 was a very successful architect, there is plenty available about him. He is the son of the William that I am looking for. I know that he and Jane (his defacto - I have all I need on Jane) left Sunderland, Durham to come to Australia on the Birman in 1853. I am fine on everything after 1853, it is his life in England prior to then that is a mystery. Unfortunately he and Jane never married so I can't get parentage from a marriage certificate and he is nowhere to be found in 1841 or 1851.
Cheers,
Jo :) :) :)
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will this fit
sylvia
Births and Baptisms Old Independent Meeting House Northamptonshire from [Chapel/Registry]
Full Name William Pitts
Baptism 6 Feb 1820
Birth21 Oct 1819
Registration Date
Registration Town/County Wollaston
Ceremony by D Hennell
Richard Pitts
Mother
Ruth Pitts
father
William Pitts
Baptism 6 February 1820
TNA ReferenceRG4 / Piece 2047 / Folio 6
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Thanks Sylvia,
Definitely a possibility, I will have another look through the censuses using that birthplace and see what happens. The areas of birth that I have focused on are London - based on working at the Lyceum, Durham - based on Jane's birthplace/life, Birmingham - based on previously mentioned Pitt family of artists from there, and Devon - based on several of William's artworks in Australia having Devon in the title??? I think I really need a census result on him to work from but seem to be unable to find one. I really appreciate your efforts on my behalf.
Cheers, Jo :) :) :)
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Re Gales on line did you find
Lloyds Weekly London Newspaper Apr 16 1843
City of London Theatre .... The scenery will be all new, executed by Mr J Pitt of the Adelphi Theatre
You mention his father was also a scenic artist. Unfortunately, only an initial available for this gentleman.
There are references to a Pitt, scenery designer, post 1853 - indicating at least 2 in the business around this time.
regards
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http://www.emich.edu/english/adelphi_calendar/mgmt.htm
Pitt, Thomas H - at the Adelphi from 1824 to 1858.
There is a Thomas Pitt, artist, aged 35 in 1841 - with wife Mary Ann and possible mother Sophia.
Could be a brother?
His death is recorded in newspapers, he died 18th August 1873, described as Thomas Henry Pitt, aged 70, artist, died at 58, Westbourne-road North, Barnsbury. Connected with these theatres: Royal, Adelphi and Drury-Lane.
He is at 58 Westbourne road in 1871 - place of birth given as Croydon (confirmed by 1861).
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I found the obituary for Thomas Henry Pitt and the theatre references, he is generally referred to as T.H. Pitt. I would like to think that they are related somehow? Can I ask what the other references post 53 were hanes? I must have missed some. I have been unable to find TH Pitt s birth in Croydon, would love to as it might give me a starting point. The theatre is definitely where I need to be looking. Does anyone know of any collections relating to London theatres in that time frame? You guys are so good at thinking outside the box or suggesting unheard of and obscure avenues. So appreciated.
Regards,
Jo :) :) :)
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Great site Jorose, I hadn't seen this - had been looking for the Lyceum. Did you notice Miss Pitt as costume designer, maybe I should look for her?
Thank you, Jo :)
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Years ago I came across a site called www.backstage.net.uk which was a theatrical museum and had lots of information. I tried looking for it again, but there is now a commercial site with the same name. There must be theatrical museums in London - but living in Australia I cant help much. Try googling and see if that works.
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Thomas Henry Pitt m. Mary Ann Skelton in 1839 - try the Ancestry database of London marriages (possibly via your library if you don't have an account) and see if he's there - might give you his father's name/occupation.
There are some Croydon baptisms on the IGI but I don't see him - perhaps they did them elsewhere or the baptism was delayed.
There is a baptism of a Thomas Henry in Hampshire at about the right time, son of George Cecil and Sophia Augusta which might make him the brother of George Dibden Pitt:
http://www.gale.cengage.com/pdf/samples/sp681623.pdf
He might then be an uncle?
The other question is, what was he doing up in Sunderland, if that's where he met Jane? (Do you know where she is in 1851?)
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Hi Yendis & Jorose,
Jane is with her family in 1841 & 1851, living in a pub run by her mother, it seems unlikely that she would have left and met William in London or elsewhere. They must have 'got together' around late 51/52 to have left in 53 to Australia. She seems to have had a very close family, all together in the area and in each others houses over following censuses.
Yendis, I am sure there must be plenty of Theatre Museums in London, like you I am in Aust and rely on the internet, and all you wonderful people on rootschat! The Era newspaper was the main one for theatre reviews, and I'm told, a paper called the Theatrephile, but am unable to find this one. Maybe I need an art expert too?
I have had a quick look at the Dibdin Pitt line before but will go back to this a bit more thoroughly, instinct ruled it out but I can't remember why.
As to Sunderland, previous advice says that this was part of a county theatre circuit, including Birmingham, that it is likely that William was part of. Maybe meeting Jane at the pub?
I do have a subscription to both Ancestry & FindMyPast, so will look for the marriage of TH Pitt there, the 41 census you mentioned earlier Jorose definitely indicates that he is the son/relative of Dibdin Pitt (mother Sophia). I would like to see his, or Dibdin or Sophia's will but have looked at the index for 'Pitt' wills on NA site before and not noticed these?
Thank you, Jo :) :) :)
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Thomas Henry Pitt - artist, married Mary Ann Skelton, 1839, father is George Cecil Pitt - Musician. Thanks Jorose, This is worth following.
Cheers, Jo :) :)
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Jo, you may have to work backwards from Australia - meaning look for any clue to his former life in England. I googled Theatrephile, threatrical paper,uk and got some info. William Pitt b. 1819 England, died 17 Jan 1879 St Kilda Melbourne. He arrived in Oz on 27 January 1853 at Port Melbourne. On google page 2 I saw a biography for William John Wilson of Dramatic Art Aust Online and wondered if William was also mentioned. He was. "An experienced scene-painter from England. Worked for many years in theatre production. He was also foundation member of Vic Acadmey of Arts before a quarrel saw him resign. I also google The Era, theatrical paper,uk and it has an excellent archive on old London theatres. You can print out pictures of them. Also East London Theatre Archives had 89 results for Wm Pitt.So its worth chasing up. You will need time - follow all the Links and search "archives" on some of those sites. Suggest you make a cup of coffee and settle in for some lengthy work.
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Yendis you are brilliant. Had tried contacting the Victorian Academy of arts - no luck. Had only tried the era and theatrephile through gale - not google! Doh! Will start following your leads now (there goes the planned housework!).
Will let you know how I go - if you're interested?
Thank you, Jo ;D
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Thanks Jo...just another pair of eyes looking at your brickwall. This is a great site only discovered it 72 hours ago and have had excellent help with my mystery Grand Uncle. Like you I know his 'recent' stuff..just need to know his marriage and death details. He too was in the London theatre as an actor, playright and designer of theatre posters and playbills. He wrote books and has had his plays reviewed in the London Times. He was Sidney Lewis Ransom b. 1881 Wandsworth, Surrey and had a habit of styling himself as Lewis-Ransom or mosnar yendis (his name spelt backwards). A very arty type! Yet he has disappeared from UK Census from 1891.His plays were staged at Terry's Theatre and Prince of Wales Theatre, London. I will now keep an eye out for your William Pitt as I trawl through all those theatre sites. Maybe you will watch out for my Sidney?
Thanks Yendis44
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Sorry Jo forgot to mention that the Theatrephile copies are also on Ebay but only recent ones for 1980's. It possibly is worth searching for older copies of Theatrephile. I will keep up todate with your postings and check how you are going. My postings are on London Theatre.
Kind Regards,Yendis44
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Jo,
The post '53 references are 24 Dec 1854 (The Era) and 17 Jul 1855 (Morning Chronicle). Think this is T H Pitt - simply a mention of "Pitt and Turner" working in collaboration.
Too many Pitts associated with the Theatre - Charles Pitt, Thomas H Pitt, Dibdin Pitt, J Pitt, Miss Pitt, Mr Pitt and, of course, just Pitt - searching is a nightmare.
"Pitt the Adelphi" has a number of references to working in collaboration - Pitt + Telbrin/Telbryn, Pitt + Johnstone, Pitt and Tomkins. Have googled these as pairs which has produced theatrical responses. But no leads to "your" William.
An intriguing post
regards
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Thanks Yendis & Hanes,
I agree - too many Pitt's!!! A whole day wasted. Yendis I can't find the archives for the era? Must be doing something wrong. The other site you gave me all referred to Dibdin Pitt (the search seems to ignore the William) but I did order the one referencing William Pitt, Princess Theatre Melbourne - but am sure this will be William Jnr., the architect of the Princess. So needed a break - found this interview with Mosnar Yendis where the interviewer talks about tracking him down through his printer to the Tax Office?
http://www.research-design.co.uk/find_article.php?find=&page=1&what=article&asImages=text&article=31950
I will keep an eye for him but he was definitely in London in 1903 when interview took place.
I'm sure you've found all the references to The Sidney Ransom that was a member of the London Theosophical Society. He wrote books about this subject (fits with being an author), was born in 1881, travelled extensively and married Josephine Maria Davies - Jan/Mar 1907, Brentford, Vol 3a, p273. She was born 22 Mar 1879 in Australia & died in England in 1960. I think it would be worth ordering the marriage certificate as he sounds like a man who could have become involved in this sort of society & it would explain his absences on later censuses.
Let me know how you go and thank you (all) so much for your thoughts and ideas. I will find him somewhere, I'm sure. Maybe I need to hire a researcher in London? Anyway, the neglected family are clamouring for food, clean clothes and a bit of attention/affection (in that order!), so back to current life for today at least!
Best wishes, Jo ???
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Hi Jo,
Have you seen this family tree on ant*sy?
Source citations are ants*y.com.au. It may be worth tracking down.
William Pitt b. 1799 Wiltshire County, England, United Kingdom
Jane B. Giles b.1801 Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom (spouse, no marriage date)
Children:
William Pitt b. 1820 Sunderland, Durham, England. d. 1879
Thomas Pitt b. 1826
1830 Second Marriage to Grace Amelia Seymor b. Kingston House, Dorset, England
Children: Ann Pitt b. 1831
For William Pitt (Jr.) b.September 18, 1820:
Marriage to Jane Dixon in 1850 in Sunderland, Durham England
d. 1879 Melbourne, Australia
Children:
William Pitt (Architect) 1855-1918
Alice Pitt 1857-1879
Richard Brinsley Pitt 1860-1929
Charles Pavey Pitt 1865-1944
Deb
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Thanks Gracie,
That's my William and some of his children but so much else on there is unreliable, the problem with public trees. The father William is an ag lab in the 1841 census in Gloucester, which doesn't fit with what I (think) know of William's father. But I really appreciate you looking as I need a census in 41 or 51 showing someone named Pitt as an artist/painter/scenic artist/set designer??? Even working in a pub as William run several 'licensed' places in Australia (although his partner Jane came from a 'pub' family, so that could be more her influence. Also the marriage to Amelia Grace Seymour is to William Morton Pitt of Dorset.
Thank you though, all help is gratefully received!
Regards, Jo :)
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Jo,
I think part of the problem is that I am not seeing many census records from Sunderland or Durham, on the 1841 or 1851 census. Is there anyway of finding out if these records are available or have been transcribed?
Deb
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Thanks Jo - dont spend too much time on my SLR only if in passing when searching for a Pitt you spot him. The Captain Sidney Ransom of the Theosophical is not him - I checked him some time ago. Wrong birthplace and no Lewis in his name. Also wrong parents.
The link to The ERA, I will go back and check it out - its probably my fault for forgetting something!
Thanks for your interest.
Yendis44
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1871
William Pitt
52 Born 1819
Head
Profession Artist Birth parish Birmingham Parish Paddington
St Leonards Terrace 7 District: Rg10-011 Kensington
wife janetta 45
eugene fowler niece
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London 1881
Pitt William 62 HeadArtist Painter Birmingham 6 Cantelowes Road St Pancras, Middlesex
Pitt Jeanetta 55 Wife Worcestershire "
Fowler Eugine A 22 Niece Birmingham, - "
Coleman Maria 18 Domestic London 6 Cantelowes Road
any help
sylvia
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Thanks Deb & Sylvia,
The Birmingham Pitt family aren't mine - William in Australia from 1853 onwards. I'm not sure about what records are available for Durham, I will have to look into that. I thought he might be there in 51, in time to meet Jane, but thought he was more likely in London in 41. Maybe he is one of the areas missing in 51, or out of the country??? I have now started hunting ALL records of BMD that show an occupation for Pitt/Pitts - even a sibling showing father as an artist would be brilliant at this stage, unfortunately - nothing, except very sore eyes and very annoyed family!
But thank you both so much, I will keep at it and (fingers crossed) hopefully something will turn up. I have no other ideas at the moment.
Cheers, Jo ???
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The Bookplate Society (www.bookplatesociety.org) is preparing for publication in The Bookplate Journal a review of a paperback book by Roger Jones (2nd edition, 2016) that illustrates (based on what is probably SLR's personal archive, now in Jones's ownership) 29 bookplates designed by SLR for fellow actors. Secondly, we plan to include a short biography of SLR (1876-1933), artist, author, playwright, and actor. This has been largely drafted, but it would be helpful if any relative (especially yendis44) could please now contact the Hon Treasurer and Membership Secretary (click on Contact us at top right of Society's webpage). A photo of SLR can be viewed online in the "The Stage Year Book 1913" at https://archive.org/stream/stageyearbook1913londuoft#page/n71/mode/2up but we would hope to find more material at the Victoria & Albert Museum's Theatre and Performance Archive at Blythe House. The link posted by jomcd967 would appear not to work, and it would be most helpful to receive a valid link to, or a copy of, the Mosnar Yendis interview.
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Welcome to RootsChat Apfin, hopefully Jo will reply soon :)
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Apfin,
Sorry the link no longer works, Yendis would be the person you would need to contact, as I was just browsing on her behalf to thank her for her kind help with my research, and as this was five years ago and not my line of reseRch I have no notes to refer back to.
Good luck in your search and sorry that I can't help.
Kind regards, Jo
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Jo, I too am searching for William Pitt, Theatre Artist who came to Melbourne with his defacto wife Jane Dixon and brother Thomas in 1853. Did you ever have any luck discovering him in BMD or Census before he came to Melbourne?
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Hi
William Pitt and Jane/Dixon/Huggon are my great great grandparents.
They arrived in Australia in 1853 on the ship Birman with Williams brother Thomas.
Their son Richard Brinsley is my great grandfather, his son Charles Melbourne is my grandfather, his daughter is my mother.
Regards
Greg
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Hi
Wm and Jane are my GG grandparents, their son Richard Brinsley is my G grandfather, his son Charles Melbourne my grandfather, his daughter Margaret my mother.
Interesting reading all of these threads.
It seems William and Jane were never married, in his will and hers and her probate, she is referred to as Jane Dixon|Huggon. We, all relatives that have done research believe they were never married, no evidence and confirmation in wills etc.
William was also an artist of many scenes in and around the Dandenong and has had paintings catalogued in Melbourne. His son Richard before going to Queensland was also an artist and went to the Victorian Arts in Melbourne late 1800s.
Williams brother Thomas wasn’t as successful as William or his son William.
Thomas went the gold mines up near Ballarat to Clunes.
He died 29th October 1869 as a result of an accident, he was thrown from a sulky, he managed to get back to his residence, McCullullochs Tourello Hotel, went to bed and was found dead in his bed the next morning by the hotel owner, an inquest was held on his death and was found to have died of apoplexy.
He was buried at Clunes cemetery in an area where strangers were buried with others in a paupers grave.
His brother William declined to claim his body, why I don’t know as he was an influential person as his son was in Melbourne.
This is refered to in the coroner’s report on Thomas’ death.
William as you know was a licensee in many hotels and theatres in Melbourne.
I have original pics of William Snr including Jane, and their 3 surviving sons, William, Richard and Charles and some of William Pitt jnr architect and his surviving children, Elizabeth Collingwood, Gladys Jessie, Vera Jane, Stanley Melbourne and William Gordon.
Where do you fit into the Pitt family?
quote author=jomcd967 link=topic=555388.msg6096643#msg6096643 date=1478722054]
Hi Apfin,
Sorry the link no longer works, Yendis would be the person you would need to contact, as I was just browsing on her behalf to thank her for her kind help with my research, and as this was five years ago and not my line of reseRch I have no notes to refer back to.
Good luck in your search and sorry that I can't help.
Kind regards, Jo
[/quote]
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The name Pitt was used in the Dibdin family. Charles Dibdin the younger (1768-1833) was an important figure in the theatrical world, so it seems quite possible that William Pitt was associated with his extended family. (Charles, married in 1797, had 11 children). Harriet Pitt, an actress, was his mother. But I'm not sure if Sunderland or Durham fit in, as I think Charles operated mainly in London.
Of course, Richard Brinsley are the forenames of the famous writer, Sheridan.
Regards, Watson
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"William Pitt, scenic artist, engaged by me from the London Lyceum under Vestris and Matthews, was a great acquisition." (source: Coppin's Diary, The Imperial Review, page 1)
If - and it may be a big if - Pitt really did work at the Lyceum, perhaps that knowledge will make it possible to find more about him.