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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: mdundas on Wednesday 14 September 11 11:41 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any information at all on the family below from Moulin / Weem. Names include McGregor, Dewar, Kennedy, Cameron, McNaughton, Butter, Lamond. Thank you! I am especially keen to trace Alexander McG's parentage.
ALEXANDER MCGREGOR AND JEAN DEWAR
Were married on 1st Dec 1806 in Perth, where she is down as daughter of Thomas Dewar, Carrier in Perth, and he is down as a Corporal in the 74th Regiment of Foot. (Note: Could he have been barracked in Perth as it says “both in this parish” ?).
They were also married a week later in Weem, where it states that they are both in THAT parish. Dr R. MacGregor of Clan Gregor society says very unlikely to have two couples of same name marrying within such a short timescale.
I can only find them on the 1841 census, where they were living in the stables at Moulin ( Inn? ) and Alexander is down as an Ag Lab. Both are down as being 55 yrs old, which, according to the rounding-down sytem used in the ’41 census, would give them a both a birth year of between 1782 and 1786. Unfortunately, the ’41 census does not elaborate on whereabouts in Perthshire they were born.
I can find no further information on them in any of the subsequent censuses.
ISSUE:
Archibald – c 15.8 1807 in Castle Menzies , Weem ( I can find no trace of Archibald in any of the censuses );
Catherine – c 23.5.1809 in Weem
Niel, - c. 4.2.1811 in Weem ( no trace )
Jean – c. 9.1.1813 in Weem
Vere -b. 29.1.1815, c 2.2 1815; in Perth. On 13 Sep 1847 she married Hope Fleming Mackenzie in Edinburgh and afterwards emigrated to Sarnia, Ontario where she died in 1849, I believe in childbirth. (NB He was tipped for the post but he died young as well in 1866 and so the role of the second-ever Prime Minister of Canada went to his brother Alexander! ). Use of Vere may have come in to McGregors via Vere Menzies marrying into family.
Amelia Ann b 11.1.1817, c 16.1.1817, Perth *** ( my gggg-grandmother. See below. )
Isabella c 30.8.1820, Auchtergaven. She married Duncan Kennedy ( son of Duncan Kennedy and Christina MacDonald , b. Logierait abt. 1808) on 8 Jan 1841 in Moulin.
1841: Moulin, Pitlochry
1851: No trace as yet.
1861: Perth & Inverness Road, Moulin
1871: Inverness Road
1881: Inverness Road, Cloichard Cottages Duncan is dead by now ).
1891: Annuitant living at “Gaandearg” (mistrans.?), Old School House, Moulin.
1901: ditto.
Duncan was a tailor by trade. He died between 1871 and 1881, when we find Isabella working as a laundress. They lived on Inverness Road, Moulin. By 1901, Isabella is living at “Gaandearg”, Old School House, Pitlochry as an annuitant. She died in 1902.
Their children were: Alexander ( 1842 ), Christina Elizabeth ( 1844 ), Jane ( 1845 ), Duncan ( 1847 ), Christian ( 1849 ) Isabella Amelia ( 1850 ), Vere ( 1852 ), Archibald Butter Kennedy ( 1859 ) and Donald ( 1862 ).
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Part 2:
AMELIA ANN MCGREGOR
Married Hugh Cameron, son of Donald Cameron and Mary McNaughton, on 4.2.1848 at Moulin ( “both of this parish” ). Donald Cameron is mentioned as being 50 on the 1841 census, which would give a birth year of 1787 – 1791. He lived at Shian, Kenmore. I have no further information on him as his wife is living with her son in the next census. Mary McNaughton was born on 18/6/1784 in Killin to Donald McNaughton and Margaret McNaughton. She died on 18/12/1871 at Cuiltrannich, Kenmore. By looking at other relatives on various censuses and death certificates I know that Hugh had the following siblings: James (1823 ), Duncan ( abt. 1827 ) and John ( abt. 1828 ), all born in Kenmore. Hugh has his place of birth down on the censuses as Lawers, Perthshire.
I think that I have found Hugh on the 1841 census as a Draper’s ( Dyer’s ?? ) Apprentice at Remony with the McNaughtons from the woollen trade. His name would possibly indicate a familial link with Hugh Cameron who was well-known for his mill-building in the area and who died only a few years ( 1817 ) before Hugh’s birth in 1820.
1851 to 1901 censuses :
1851: Address: Trochrie, Little Dunkeld.
Dyer & Woolcarder
1861: Address: East Haugh, Moulin
Dyer ( Journeyman )
1871: Address: Inverness Road
Dyer
1881 : Address: Inverness Road
Woollen Dyer
1891: Address: Viewbank, Moulin
Dyer
1901: Address: Ness House, Moulin
Amelia died on 7 April 1898 at the Old Brewery, Pitlochry, fifty years and three days after their marriage.
Hugh died on 8 Oct 1908 at the Old Brewery, Pitlochry.
ISSUE:
Donald, born 1849 at Little Dunkeld
JEAN ELIZABETH born 1850 at L. D, ( see below )
Alexander, born 1853, L.D
Mary Ann (sub) 1854, LD ( see below )
John, 1856 , LD
Isabella 1858, Strathbran, LD. ( see below )
NOTES:
The 1841 census shows Amelia as living with her parents in the stables at Moulin. However, by the next census they seem to have died ( cholera / famine?) or emigrated with Vere after her marriage as there is no trace of them within UK records. ( Maybe OPRs for Poor Relief? )
(She and Hugh would appear to have moved to Moulin between 1858 and 1861, after birth of Isabella but their wedding record states “both of this parish”. Could it be that they lived in Moulin, moved to LD and then came back?)
Jean Elizabeth Cameron
Married John Low on 29/1/1875 at Pitlochry. He is down as son of James Low, Gamekeeper, and Elizabeth Clark (dec’d). Jean died on 11/10/1978 of post-partum shock after six days in childbed from delivering my g-granny Charlotte. She and John had one other child, Amelia Jane, born in Blairgowrie in 1876. John Low went on to marry another two times, to a Catherine Grant and Charlotte Chalmers and it was he who brought the family down to Edinburgh.
Mary Ann Cameron
Married Robert Lamond, moved to Glenshee and had the following children:
Amelia Jane, Robert, Margaret Elizabeth, Jessie A and Isabella.
Isabella Cameron
Married George Simpson. They lived in Moulin ( Cloichard Cottages and Viewbank ) and had the following children:
Emily Ann (1884 ), Mary Jane ( 1885 ), Georgina Isabella ( 1886 ), Elizabeth Ann Morrison Simpson ( 1889 ) and Vere Kennedy Simpson ( 1890 ), all in Moulin.
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There's this ref. in the TNA catalogue, but I'm still trying to work out where "Tumburn" might be.
WO 119/42/98 ALEXANDER MCGREGOR. Born TUMBURN, Perthshire. Served in 74th Foot Regiment. Discharged aged 34. Covering dates give year of enlistment to year of discharge. Kilmainham Reference: A12363. 1801-1817
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Hello Isabel! Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have seen something relating to this as well regarding the sale of the same Alexander's medals from the Napoleonic Wars : http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=71441
The reason I don't think that this could be my Alexander is because I have compared the dates of some of his childrens' births and they clash with dates of active service during the campaign during which he was present and received medals for participating in. Unless of course the children were entered retrospectively but it doesn't look like it on the OPRs.
HOWEVER, after looking at the muster rolls of the 74th on ancestry for the Napoleonic Wars, I can only find one corporal bearing his name for the campaign. I believe that to view the Kilmainham papers I need to go to London to the National Archives.
I did have a theory re Tumburn, and wondered if it could be Tomour, Tomvulin, Tom Mor or Tombane. Phonetically, it is probably more likely to be the latter. Geographically, it is only five miles from Dunkeld and very near Trochrie so kind of fits my family's provenance.
If this is him, I wish I had been able to buy the medals - I believe they went for over £6k!!
I appreciate any further thoughts you may have.
Maxine
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Tombane, Tombuie, Tomour......all possible, though like you I think Tombane most likely.
Here's a snippet from marriages recorded in a notebook by the Moulin minister of the time: 1901, Oct 9 Alexr Bonthrone (30) Tailor 369 Leith Walk Edinburgh to Jane Isabella Cameron (27) niece & housekeeper to Hugh Cameron, Dyer, Ness House Pitlochry
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That's very interesting Isabel - the 1881,1891 and 1901 censuses have a Jane / Jeannie Cameron ( born 1874 - 6 ) down as living with Hugh, but mentions that she is his NIECE. I can only presume that Hugh and Amelia adopted her from a brother of his. Her birth date is certainly too far on for Amelia to be her birth mother. I will need to do a bit more sleuth work here!
Thank you very much indeed!
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Sorry, you did say she was his niece. I will blame end-of-day tiredness for my attention lapse! Thank you for that, she was the daughter of Duncan Cameron and Jean Walker.
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Hi again Isabel! The notebook that you mentioned, is that available to view at all in the National Archives of Scotland or at the Moulin Kirk centre? It sounds very interesting!
Regards
Maxine.
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Hi Maxine
It's on computer at the Family History room in Moulin Kirk. The notebook itself wouldn't stand too much handling. It records deaths between 1900-1926, and marriages 1896-1927. The information is variable and may not even be complete for those periods; there are blanks that he never got round to filling in, and occasionally different spellings of a name in a single entry, but sometimes there are little details that you might not come across elsewhere.
Isabel
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Thanks Isabel. I am planning on going up to Moulin for a couple of days soon so will have a look at it.
Maxine.
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Hi Isabel! I think I can state pretty conclusively that Alexr. McGregor of "Tomburn" is not mine. I have discovered from two of my Alexr.'s childrens' birth records that he was an innkeeper in the city of Perth in 1815 and 1817 - both of which would clash with the history of the other Alexr. By 1820 he had moved to Bankfoot, Auchtergaven.
Thanks again for your help.
Regards
Maxine.
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Hi mdundas,
Robert Lamond, shepherd, married Mary Ann Cameron in January 1875 at Pitlochry (Moulin)
Their daughter Maggie Elsie Lamond born 13th May 1877 at Kerrow, Glenshee.
Any idea where Robert Lamond came from, or who his parents were?
Isis (www.borenich.co.uk)
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Hello Isis! Thank you for the info. I have Robert's parents down as being Robert Lamond( born circa 1809 ) and Jane Cameron (born circa 1819). In the 1851 census I have him as living at "Camber" in Kirkmichael with his parents and siblings, Margaret, James, Peter and Donald. He is 7 months old in this census. In 1861, the address is elaborated on further and is given as 1 Camb's House, Farmer's House in Glenshee, Perthshire ( I only found out recently that there are apparently two Glenshees in Scotland ). The parents have added to the family by this census, with Jessie, John and Elspeth being born in the interim. His mother is not in the 1871, but the rest of the family is at the same address. As you know, he married Mary Ann in 1875 and then in the 1881 he has moved to Tome ( sic ) Bothy. I wonder if this is a mis-transcription of Camb ( ancestry's transcriptions are notoriously awful! ). They have had five children in six years - poor Mary Ann! In the 1891 they are living at "Slocknacraig" in Kirkmichael and have had another four children. One of them, Hugh, has his enrolment papers for the army viewable on ancestry. Let me know if you would like to view my tree and I can send an invitation to your e-mail address. By the time of the First War, Hugh is living in Canada ( or so I remember from memory ! ). His papers tell you quite a lot about him physically.Robert has his address mentioned in the 1897 -8 Leslie's Directory.
I am afraid I have not done any more than this with Robert's tree for now but I am starting to delve deeper into the trees of the spouses of my gggg-grandparents' children and their children, hoping to find further links so may come up with something else in the future. Just last week I discovered that in 1805 my gggg-granny had an illegitimate child to a Menzies the year before she married my gggg-grandfather, who was a McGregor. They had their first child at Castle Menzies although she was from Duntuim so it all seems very interwoven.
Slightly off topic, but I noticed that your website is borenich. I spent a lovely weekend in Borenich farmhouse with some girlfriends back in January. I have also looked at your very interesting site as my gggg-grandfather farmed just outside Pitlochry but I have not, as yet, been able to work out which farm he worked on. He was a labourer so may be hard to find.
Let me know if you would like to view my tree, you are more than welcome, and thanks again for your reply.
Best wishes,
Maxine.
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PS I have Jane Cameron's parents as Peter Cameron and Margaret Robertson. Her and Robert's first daughter was named Margaret and their second son Peter, which ties in. They married on 21 April 1810 in Kirkmichael and apparently had children named John ( born three months after their wedding ), Margaret ( 1812 ), Elizabeth ( 1813 ), Janet ( 1815 ), James ( 1817 ), JANE ( 1818 ), Susan ( 1821 ), Allan ( 1823 ) , Peter in 1828 and finally ( PHEWW!!) Daniel in 1831. Most of these names are subs on the IGI and I haven't checked SP for their veracity.
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Many thanks. We were hoping that Robert had a link with Blair Atholl parish
As for your Glenshee locations use this link to the map room at the National Library of Scotland.
http://geo.nls.uk/search/mosaic/#zoom=6&lat=56.71138&lon=-4.9&layers=000B0000000
This give you the first edition of the Ordnance Survey map for this area.
Where it says 'Choose a historic overlay' select Scotland OS Six Inch 1843 -1882
Now add the National Grid Reference NO113701 where it says Gazetteer and hit the RETURN key and you should be at the Spittal of Glenshee.
If you put the magnification up one notch you will see Kerrow, Caams (Cambs) and Tomb (Tome) all close together.
Kindest regards,
Isis (www.borenich.co.uk)
P.S. What was the name of your gggg-grandfather who farmed just outside Pitlochry (it would have been Moulin at that time)?
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Hi Isis! Thanks for the link - what a useful tool! And now I know that they were separate farms!
My gggg-grandfather was called Alexander McGregor and his wife was Jean Dewar. Yes, it was Moulin as in the 1841 census they were spending the night in the stables ( now the brewery )with his wife and a daughter at the Moulin Inn and he is down as an Ag Lab. Why he was in the stables beats me. I prefer to think that maybe the Inn was full and they had just moved to the parish rather than that they were too poor to get a room! However, his daughter Vere's marriage entry for her banns from St Cuthbert's in Edinburgh ( but they married in Pitlochry ) in 1843 states that he was a farmer ( obviously glorifying his status ) in Pitlochry. Two of his childrens' DCs state that he was a post-runner so he could not have been a farmer-owner as a landowner would not have a second job as a post-runner. I suspect that Archibald McG who also lived in Moulin may have been his brother but, as yet, nothing concrete. Alexr and Jean really were peripatetic and lived in Castle Menzies, Aberfeldy, Perth, Weem, Bankfoot and Moulin which makes it difficult to find his roots.
Unfortunately he died in 1849 and Jean pre-deceased him in 1847. I have met up with a "cousin" here in Edinburgh and she has an old handwritten document which gives me their rough ages but that has not been much use and neither have their children's names. I am just plodding on though, and the discovery of Jean's "natural" child living with his half-sister in his dotage has helped me to localise my search ( well, for the Dewars anyway ) around the Logierait area.
I have just had a look at a couple of other trees for you regarding the Lamonts and, as far as I can make out, the Robert in question's tree went as follows ( I can't vouch for these trees but they seem well- enough researched ):
Robert b. 1809 to James Lamond & Mgt. Fergusson in Glenshee. James born 1789 in Glenbeg to John Lamond and Rebecca Campbell. John born about 1761 in Dalbunzie to James Lamond and Janet McIntosh who married in 1760 in Kirkmichael. I can't see Blair Atholl mentioned anywhere in the pages.
I had a quick look at your Lamont, Balnald page. Your research really is super ( makes me feel like such an amateur! ) and I am sure that the info above won't be of use but I guess that even if it helps you discount this line then that is something! I am now at the stage that I need to get digging in the Kirk Session Minutes and farm papers but I work pretty much full-time and have three boys so I have to grab my "tree time" when I can. I was at the Bell Library a couple of weeks ago but never found much. Hope springs eternal though!
I will look again at your pages over the next few days when I am not so tired and see if I can find anything that ties in to any of my files. My head is pretty cloudy tonight due to dinner party excess last night!
Maxine
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Hi Maxine,
Once again, many thanks but we don't see a link between these Lamont families at present.
If you are looking at the web-site there are some interesting / amusing local stories at the bottom of the web-page 'Strathtummel in Past Times'. Obviously you can also access them from the Index page.
Isis