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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: humanracer on Tuesday 13 September 11 20:38 BST (UK)
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Got great help from this board before so thought I would try again.
Agnes Ellen Williams married my great grandfather James Plunkett in 1904. She died in 1936, aged 51. So she was born around 1885. I tried to find her birth cert on scotlandspeople to no avail making me think she was maybe born elsewhere.
The married cert lists her parents as "Robert Williams" and "Mary Ellen Willians"., maiden name Rooney. However the death cert of Agnes lists her mothers maiden name as Plunkett! Surely a mistake? Also the death cert lists her as "Agnes Helen" rather than "Agnes Ellen". The death cert also lists her father Robert as "Robert Edward". I think!
Any ideas about where she was born?
Thanks in advance
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The 1911 census would help you in trying to establish where Agnes was born and from this info, try to trace her family and origins.
Don't worry about Ellen and Helen (and Nellie), they are just different variants of the same name. See this site which is great for first name variants, with a particularly strong Scottish bias www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=ellen
With Agnes for example, you may find Ann(e/ie) or Nancy as a variant.
Monica
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Good call on the census. I found the info there. She was born in Fife but indexed on Scotlandspeople as "AGENS HELEN"!
Sigh....
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Hi humanracer
If you send contact us form to scotlandspeople they will endeavor to correct the index
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?410
Yours Aye
Brucel
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Get the feeling Agnes' roots may not be straightforward :-\ I think this is her in 1891 with what you have now regarding her birthplace:
William Morris 40, coal miner b. Nrth Wales
Susnna Morris 51 b. Ireland
Agnes Williamson 5 grandchild b. Cowdenbeath, Fife
Patrick Rooney 19 visitor coal miner b. England
James Plunkett 31, visitor, coal miner, b. England
Elizabeth Plunkett 25, Visitor, b. Lassodie Bewth, Fife
Alexander Plunkett 5 Months visitor b. Lochquey, Fife
Address: 17 Minto Street, Auchterderran, Fife
We have Rooney, Williamson (as mentioned earlier with first name variants, you will find similar issues with surnames/spelling variations), Plunkett and Agnes' birth location in Fife....together with a birth from every corner of the kingdom!
Monica
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Here's what I've found;
James Plunkett married Elizabeth Gibb in 1889. In 1901 census they are in Beath, Fife.
Elizabeth died in 1902 in Beath, Fife. Can I assume that your Gt.Grandfather was a widower when he married Agnes?
Agnes Morris was born in 1885 in Beath,Fife.This must surely be your Agnes, grandaughter of William & Susanna Morris (as per 1891 census) If you download her birth certificate, you'll find out her true parentage!
Regards,
flst
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Thought there might be twists and turns flst ;) ;D Well done for figuring out as much as you have to date!
Monica
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Here's what I've found;
James Plunkett married Elizabeth Gibb in 1889. In 1901 census they are in Beath, Fife.
Elizabeth died in 1902 in Beath, Fife. Can I assume that your Gt.Grandfather was a widower when he married Agnes?
Agnes Morris was born in 1885 in Beath,Fife.This must surely be your Agnes, grandaughter of William & Susanna Morris (as per 1891 census) If you download her birth certificate, you'll find out her true parentage!
Regards,
flst
Thanks flst. Yes you are right, James Plunkett originally married Elizabeth Gibb. That kind of threw me off because I assumed Elizabeth was my great grandmother until I found the birth certificate of my grandfather "Robert Edward", confirming Agnes was his actual mother. Interesting marriage considering the huge age gap and the fact he had known her when she was a child.
Confused about the Morris thing though. Agnes birth, marriage and death certs all list her parents as Robert Edward and Mary Ellen Williamson. The interesting thing though is that her mother "Mary Ellen" maiden name is Plunkett! Odd for such as unusual name like mine to have two different lines in my family tree. Hope they aren't related somehow! I found Agnes birth on SP and it was indexed as Agnes Williams (but with a spelling error as mentioned above). Maybe this Agnes Morris/Williamson is someone different??
Any ideas about the Morris family?
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Hi, you said in your first post that you couldn't find Agnes's birth certificate in scotlandspeople. Her parent's names are shown on her marriage certificate? It is not uncommon for illegitimate children to be registerd under their mother's maiden name & be brought up by another surname (either their actual father's surname or by their step-dad's name.)Could her mother be Mary Ellen Rooney who later married Robert Williams? The only way to discount this Agnes Morris would be to look up her birth certificate as previously suggested. Names given on death certificates are often inaccurate.
flst
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Hi, you said in your first post that you couldn't find Agnes's birth certificate in scotlandspeople. Her parent's names are shown on her marriage certificate? It is not uncommon for illegitimate children to be registerd under their mother's maiden name & be brought up by another surname (either their actual father's surname or by their step-dad's name.)Could her mother be Mary Ellen Rooney who later married Robert Williams? The only way to discount this Agnes Morris would be to look up her birth certificate as previously suggested. Names given on death certificates are often inaccurate.
flst
I could not find it start with but in my later post I mentioned I found it. It was listed on Scotlandspeople but had a spelling mistake (aegens instead of agnes). I am positive that the brith cert I found is right, it would be a waste of credits to check agnes morris. It is interesting though.
The Rooney thing confuses me. Agnes mother is listed on her birth and death cert as Mary Ellen Plunkett. There is a seperate thread that I made about that person. However on Agnes marriage she is listed as Rooney!. Mary Ellen married 3 times according to her death cert. First marriag was Robert Edward Williams then she married Cringles and finally Anderson. No mention of Rooney. And who is this Morris??
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and thanks for the suggestions flst, it is helping me unravel the mystery.
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Here's a link to the other post. Interesting to note the name Susanna crops up. This was the christian name of Susanna Morris in the 1891 census!
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555287.0.html
Regards,
flst
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Hi
Did you get this~
William and Susannah are in Dalziel, LKS in 1901.
Susanna Teresa Morris ( other names McCluskey, Plunkett and Rooney) dies Dalziel in 1907
I've got a lead on William in Mold, flintshire but need to check his death.
gnu
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Could you please recap on Agnes's birth certificate details? What was the address of the place of birth.Why is her mother named as Mary Ellen Williamson?Should it not be Williams? The Scottish certificates should also state m.s.... If it doesn't, then she was single.
As for the Agnes Morris born in 1885 . I spent 5 credits to find out who she was. She's the daughter of William & Christina (nee Simpson) Morris.So she was a red herring!
As for the Mary Ellen Williams, found in 1881census in England, she is in Bothwell in 1891 & Motherwell in 1901.Her husband is still alive & they have a number of children.The middle 3 were born in Cowdenbeath.
Regards,
flst
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Well done gnu,
does this mean that Susannah was Mary Ellen's daughter?
flst
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Hi flst :)
Not sure. I had a sneak at Susannah's death cert - married to
1 Alexander Plunkett, dock labourer
2 Patrick Rooney, seaman
3 William Morris, coal miner
Parents - Edward McLuskey, Government Surveyor and Margaret M.S McLuskey
~~~~~~~~~~~
Try this ~
The only death that seems to fit for William is back in Fife - did he move back after Susannah died :-\ This one dies 1912, Dunfermline Poor House, from pulmonary pneumonia. Aged 62. He is a widower but no wife's name and the clerk of the poor house gave the details. His parents are given as Edward Morris, labourer and Elizabeth MS Jones (pretty Welsh if you ask me! ) Both deceased. (Haven't checked the 1911)
Looked for marriages for this couple on the North Wales BMD pre 1851 - 3 - Mold, Flintshire; Corwen, Meirionethshire; and one Montgomeryshire.
Looked at the 1861 Census for a William b.c 1851 with parents Edward and Elizabeth. This family come up in Leeswood, Flintshire
Pontblyddyn, Leeswood (Mold Sub District)
RG9/4276/48/38
Edward Morris, 37, Ag Lab, b. Mold
Elisabeth, 35, b. Leeswood
Jane, 15
Ellen, 12
William, 9
Catherine, 6
Margt, 4
Elisth, 2
Mary Ann, 1
Children all b. Leeswood
Still there in 1871 - RG10/5649/20/31 and 1881 RG11/5508/109/23 but not afterwards!
Maybe worth following up.
gnu
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Has William's age been mistranscribed in 1891?
Well done in finding the previous censuses!
I cannot find Mary Ellen's subsequent marriages to a Mr.Cringle & Mr.Anderson.
She is still Mrs.Williams in 1901. I wonder about 1911 census?
humanracer, any further on with this ?
flst
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Could you please recap on Agnes's birth certificate details? What was the address of the place of birth.Why is her mother named as Mary Ellen Williamson?Should it not be Williams? The Scottish certificates should also state nee.... If it doesn't, then she was single.
As for the Agnes Morris born in 1885 . I spent 5 credits to find out who she was. She's the daughter of William & Christina (nee Simpson) Morris.So she was a red herring!
As for the Mary Ellen Williams, found in 1881census in England, she is in Bothwell in 1891 & Motherwell in 1901.Her husband is still alive & they have a number of children.The middle 3 were born in Cowdenbeath.
Regards,
flst
Hi Flst
The birth cert says Agnes Helen Williams. She was born in Cowdenbeath. Her father was Robert Edward Williams, a coal miner. Her mother is Mary Helen Williams. It says her maiden name was Plunkett. It says her parents married on 18th November 1878 in Wrexham Wales.
I found Mary Ellen's death cert on Scotlands people. She died in Dalziel, Lanark at the age of 89 in 1950. She was the widow of:
1.Robert Edward Williams
2.William Cringles
3.William Anderson
Now on Agnes marriage to James Plunkett, it lists her mother as "Mary Ellen Williams nee Rooney"
Someone found a birth record for Mary Ellen in Liverpool in 1861. Also a marriage record for her marriage to Robert Edward in 1878.
The most interesting thing about it is the fact that Mary Ellen's surname at one point was Plunkett. Mary Ellen's daughter Agnes as you know married James Plunkett. James Plunkett's father was Alexander Plunkett, born in Ireland but was in Liverpool by 1851. He married a Susannah McCloskey, an Irish girl from Londonderry. When Alexander died in 1863, Susannah McClosky married someone called Rooney!. Alexander's parents were "Alexander Plunkett and Margaret" but I can't find much more about them because of the lack of Irish records beyond the 19th century. Anyway back to Mary Ellen. On her death cert it says her parents were Mary Plunkett (maiden name McClosky) and what I think says "Alexander Plunkett" (yes another one).
So I wonder if the two Plunkett lines are somehow connected. I hope not but would not be surprised.
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Hi humanracer :)
I think you missed this - I assume the same Alexander
Hi flst :)
Not sure. I had a sneak at Susannah's death cert - married to
1 Alexander Plunkett, dock labourer
2 Patrick Rooney, seaman
3 William Morris, coal miner
Parents - Edward McLuskey, Government Surveyor and Margaret M.S McLuskey
~~~~~~~~~~~
gnu
gnu
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Hi humanracer :)
I think you missed this - I assume the same Alexander
Hi flst :)
Not sure. I had a sneak at Susannah's death cert - married to
1 Alexander Plunkett, dock labourer
2 Patrick Rooney, seaman
3 William Morris, coal miner
Parents - Edward McLuskey, Government Surveyor and Margaret M.S McLuskey
~~~~~~~~~~~
gnu
gnu
wow, where did you find the death cert? is it on SP? I assumed she had died in England.
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Has William's age been mistranscribed in 1891?
Well done in finding the previous censuses!
I cannot find Mary Ellen's subsequent marriages to a Mr.Cringle & Mr.Anderson.
She is still Mrs.Williams in 1901. I wonder about 1911 census?
humanracer, any further on with this ?
flst
Well she died in 1950 so I guess she had time for more marriages. I will have to do a search for them on SP but might be hard to find.
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wow, where did you find the death cert? is it on SP? I assumed she had died in England.
Yep :)
Hi
Did you get this~
William and Susannah are in Dalziel, LKS in 1901.
Susanna Teresa Morris ( other names McCluskey, Plunkett and Rooney) dies Dalziel in 1907
I've got a lead on William in Mold, flintshire but need to check his death.
gnu
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so..
Is Susannah McCloskey/Plunkett/Rooney/Morris the grandmother of Agnes Helen Plunkett/Rooney/Williams/Crinkles/Anderson?
Because Susannah is the mother of James Plunkett, the wife of Agnes.
Oh dear...
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It seems now that William Morris wasn't Agnes's grandfather but possibly her grandmother's 3rd husband.
I'm thinking that the Mary M.S McLuskey on Mary Ellen's death cert, and at some stage married to Alexander Plunkett, was really Susannah. It often happens that death cert info is wrong because the informant is more distant from the people mentioned.
gnu
PS - just written this when your post came up ;D
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:)
Mary Ellen Williams, widow, aged 48, married William Cringles, coal miner in Blytheswood, 3 March 1911. Her parents are given as Alexander Plunkett, stevedore and Susannah Plunkett M.S McLuskey. Both deceased.
JL
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a serious question, how do you handle those sorts of "relationships" in your family tree? ::)
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a serious question, how do you handle those sorts of "relationships" in your family tree? ::)
Hi
Mary Ellen Williams was the mother of Agnes Williams. Her parents were Alexander Plunkett, stevedore, and Susannah McLuskey
James Plunkett married Agnes Williams. His parents , on the marriage cert, were Alexander Plunkett, stevedore and Susan McLuskey.
Thus James was Agnes's full uncle - so Agnes gives her mother's MS as Rooney. Even if Mary Ellen was a Rooney (good name ;D ), he would be Agnes's half/step uncle ::)
I don't think it was legal to marry one's niece in 1904 - not in England anyway :-\
gnu
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Well done!
I'm still wanting to know if William's age was mistranscribed in the 1891 census as it differs from that in the 1881.
flst
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HI flst
It's definitely a 40 on the original.
Could you tell me whether the 'prohibited degree' was the same in Scotland as it was in Eng & Wales, please?
gnu
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These are the current regulations;
Certain relatives are not allowed to marry. Under Scots law, one may not marry one's:
ancestor or descendant
sibling
aunt/uncle or nephew/niece
adoptive parent
adopted child
I'm not familiar with english Law but I presume it's the same?
flst
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Thanks :)
It's very much the same. Wiki has quite a few tables about the various English Acts .
gnu
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a serious question, how do you handle those sorts of "relationships" in your family tree? ::)
Hi
Mary Ellen Williams was the mother of Agnes Williams. Her parents were Alexander Plunkett, stevedore, and Susannah McLuskey
James Plunkett married Agnes Williams. His parents , on the marriage cert, were Alexander Plunkett, stevedore and Susan McLuskey.
Thus James was Agnes's full uncle - so Agnes gives her mother's MS as Rooney. Even if Mary Ellen was a Rooney (good name ;D ), he would be Agnes's half/step uncle ::)
I don't think it was legal to marry one's niece in 1904 - not in England anyway :-\
gnu
Gnu,
Perhaps I am clutching at straws here but I am looking at other possible explainations for what has happened here.
I found the marriage cert of Mary Ellen Plunkett/William/Cringles third and final marriage to William Anderson. It lists her parents as Alexender Plunkett, coal miner and Mary Plunkett ms McCloskey. Now her "real" parents are supposed to be Alexender Plunkett, a stevedore and Susanna McClusky. Death certs are often wrong BUT why would a marriage cert have the wrong info?. Perhaps Mary was another name Susanna used or perhaps Mary Ellen gave wrong info to cover up the shame of her bothers marriage to her daughter. What do you think?
Also having trouble locating Agnes and/or Mary Ellen in the 1901 census. At this point, James is living with his wife Elizabeth and his two children from that marriage. No idea where Agnes is at this point. And why was she living with her grandparents in 1891?
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Hi
It's up to you to interpret but marriage certs are usually the more accurate because those giving the info are closer to the parents.
In Agnes's case, I think she used Rooney as her mother's M.S, to cover up. She also added 5 years to her age.
I'll have a quick look for them on the 1901 but have to go to Ullapool shortly!
gnu
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Is this Agnes in 1901:
26 Leven Street, Pollockshields, Glasgow 644/13 39 13
In the household of James Nicholson a hatter and hosier.
Agnes Williams, 16, general servant (domestic), b. Fifeshire
gnu
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I believe that Mary Ellen and Robert Williams are at 23 Old Camp, Motherwell (Dalziel Reg Dist) in 1901 - 639 21 56
Robert Williams, 43, coal miner b. Wales
Mary E, 37, b. England
Hobart, 20, coal miner, b. Wales
Jane, 17, b. England
Margareta, 13, domestic servant, b. Cowdenbeath
James, 11, b. -do-
Joseph, 10, b. Motherwell
Alexander, 8, b. -do-
Mary E, 6, b. -do-
Fellias, 2, b. -do-
gnu
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I believe that Mary Ellen and Robert Williams are at 23 Old Camp, Motherwell (Dalziel Reg Dist) in 1901 - 639 21 56
Robert Williams, 43, coal miner b. Wales
Mary E, 37, b. England
Hobart, 20, coal miner, b. Wales
Jane, 17, b. England
Margareta, 13, domestic servant, b. Cowdenbeath
James, 11, b. -do-
Joseph, 10, b. Motherwell
Alexander, 8, b. -do-
Mary E, 6, b. -do-
Fellias, 2, b. -do-
gnu
Thanks GNU. Are those other people the children of the couple?
Also do we know where Mary Ellen was in the 1891 census. It might help me find out why Agnes was staying with her grandparents.
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They are down as son/daughter.
In 1891, they are in Bothwell with the children down to 1 month old Joseph - aged 10 on the 1901.
I assumed that you had access to the censuses.
I must go now.
gnu
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I kind of have access to them. I can get them through scotlandspeople but they don't list the whole household so you have to do some tedious searching then pay credits to view the original. Ancestry has transcriptions of the whole households so you can narrow it down better. I think my local library has a free version of ancestry. It is annoying though that I have to pay £22 just to get a english or welsh birth or marriage certificate.
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... It is annoying though that I have to pay £22 just to get a english or welsh birth or marriage certificate.
:-\ Not sure where you are ordering your certificates from... The standard cost for BMDs ordered direct from the GRO is £9.25, see www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/fees.asp You can order direct from them here www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Monica
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Hi Monica
I think it's what Ancestry charge if you click on the 'order' icon on a BMD listing.
I've just checked and they quote £22.99 or £39.99 for Express ::)
gnu
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:o Good margin.... ::)
Monica
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Sorry to bother your guys again, and thanks gnu for all the help you have given me so far.
I am looking into other theories, even though they maybe remote. I can see from the 1861 census that the Plunkett family had a lodger called "Ellen Rooney". Now I know that Susanna married Patrick Rooney after her first husband Alexander Plunkett died in 1863. I wonder if this Ellen is somehow related to Patrick. Anyway Ellen is also the middle name of Mary Ellen who was born in 1861. Could it be that Ellen was the real mother of Mary Ellen and something happened to Ellen and Susanna and family adopted her?. Would Mary Ellen's birth cert show this? I may order it. The only thing against this theory is that Mary Ellen has always put Alexander as her father in all her certs, even if she sometimes put Mary instead of Susanna as her mother. Alexander died in 1863 when Mary Ellen was two years old so she would not remember him. Therefore I doubt she would list her as her father unless she was sure he was her real father. It would make more sense to list Rooney as her father, a man who she grew up with.
Also Agnes was with her grandmother Susan in the 1891 census. I can see Mary Ellen had a large family when she was in Bothwell in 1891. Could it be that her mother had not enough room in her house to keep her so sent her to live with grandparents? Is that the most likely explanation.
Thanks again
Robert