RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: Dave the Walrus on Saturday 10 September 11 12:17 BST (UK)
-
Hi Everybody,
In an effort to get back as far as I can go, with my ancestors, I began to wonder about the indigenous people of Hampshire, in the early medieval period. Where did they come from? Were they Saxons mainly? Were they Normans? Were they a mixture of Saxon and Norman?
I would also postulate the theory that if you did not live on the coast, you would have been a farmer and you possibly would have offered your services at some time, in the building of Winchester Cathedral, even if it was just to carry stone from quarries.
Can I have your views?
Dave
-
The Victoria County Histories are usually quite good for background history of the general population. You can find the Hampshire Volumes here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/catalogue.aspx?gid=14
Saxon invasions happened all along the south coast, since the area came to be known as Wessex - with Sussex to the east. Wessex was the kingdom of the West Saxons and Alfred the Great was the most famous. His capital was Winchester.
The Normans also arrived since the cathedral is heavily influenced by Norman architecture.
England became a bit of a melting pot as a result of so many invasions: Roman, Saxon, Danish, Norman, let alone what was there before :)
Nell
-
Hi Nell,
Thank you very much for all of that, there is much for me to be getting on with.
As I said in a reply regarding Winchester cathedral, the name Rogers seems to be of Norman origin.
Best wishes,
Dave
-
A potted history can be found here and may help to put it all into perspective:
http://www.localhistories.org/winchester.html
-
See Stephen Oppenheimer's book "The origins of the British" If his theory is correct then we are all descendants of a population which expanded from an Ice Age refuge in Northern Spain, and subsequent migrations have made little difference, as the invaders were descendants of the same people who went further afield initially. A group known as the Durotriges inhabited Dorset Hampshire and Wiltshire in the late Iron Age immediately prior to the Roman Invasion.
-
Hi Everybody,
Thank you Bilge and Redroger for the information.
Dave
-
I thought that the Isle of Wight and the south-eat coastal areas were conquered by Jutes not Saxons?
-
The Jutes certainly had a hand as well, but the Saxons seem to have overcome them in leaving a lasting legacy in terms of their name. Perhaps that is why the Saxons come to mind more often rather than the Jutes. :-\
Nell
-
If Oppenheimer is correct it doesn't really matter anyway. They are the same people, some came later than others!
-
Hi Everybody,
It seems that Winchester's prosperity and importance has varied all through history and it seems to have had a larger population in the 10th Century, than it did in 1801.
I suspect that the farming community would have had much more to do with Winchester than Southampton and Portsmouth. In effect, the two types of trade polarised around Winchester and Southampton: Winchester as a market town and Southampton for fishing and the shipping industry.
If my ancestors in the late 18th century came from a farming background I would think that they would have had more to do with Winchester, than Southampton. I expect that fishermen don't become farmers and farmers don't take up fishing. Would there have been any other important market towns in Hampshire before the 1750's?
Dave
-
Don't forget Basingstoke Dave.
-
Dave,
I think your generalisations may be too sweeping. Winchester was important in medieval times as a religious centre - there were several religious houses there. The Bishop of Winchester was also an important figure politically at various times, particularly in the 12th century.
It was the centre of the local wool trade and Southampton was the port from which the wool was exported to the continent and in exchange, England imported wine from France. I'm not sure that Southampton has ever been strong on the fishing front. They built some good ships though and the Mayflower set off from there as well. :)
The New Forest was not an area which was good for agriculture, which was why it was used for hunting.
Nell
-
Correct Nell, trade, wine etc, and military departures for the wars with France. Latterly a major passenger and now cruise port, but no major fishing activities.
-
My Understanding is that 10 to 20 % of the population was actually of Saxon Blood and that those Romano-Celts that had lived here for a thousand years or more, just started learning the Saxon customs and lanuage etc.
It would appear from watching digging for Britain that not all Romans left either, so I am sure there are people descended from Roman Soldiers, from North Africa out there somewhere.
At least that what the TV programmes I have watched has suggested, and one of them talked about genocide with the Jutes being all but wiped out I think.
Kliffy
-
BUT according to Oppenheimer, it makes little if any difference as we are all from the same root anyway, the Ice Age refuge in Northern Spain.
-
As previously said, My knowledge is from watching quality TV programmes, and having a interest, in getting my DNA tested one day.
From DNA testing, it is possible to identify if you have Celtic, Anglo/Saxon and Norwegian Viking Origins on your Maternal or Paternal side, but that is only two lines, there are so many ancestors inbetween, that the test can't pick up, so it is only part of a persons make up, and not the full story of who you are.
I think there was a school Teacher from Somerset who was related on the Maternal side to a 2,000 year old skeleton near where he lived, so maybe the apples do not fall to far from the tree.
I think I recall Danish (The jutes) being indistinguishable from Angle and Saxon DNA, since they where from Northern Germany and Norman DNA couldn't readily be identified I think.
Kliffy
-
IF I remember correctly, the skeleton from the Cheddar Gorge, featured on meet the Ancestors was some 8,000 years old. Remarkable they were able to get DNA from it. I have had a Y chromosome DNA test a few months ago, and am digesting the continuing results. There are numerous threads about DNA on this site if you want some reading. There were a variety of special pricing offers at WDYTYA last February if you fancy taking one there, but as I say there are many offers around. The people you mention have indistinguishable DNA profiles, but remember we are all the same people anyway according to Oppenheimer.
-
Didn't realise the skeleton was 8,000 years old, you can check Teeth now, for an Isotope reading, it can pinpoint where the person grew up.
It is all fascinating stuff.
We may be of Different cultures, but we are the same people.
-
What was not apparent in the programs, but is non the less a fact, is that DNA degrades, and it becomes increasingly difficult to isolate viable DNA the older a bone is or the more degraded its condition.
-
Hello,
On the History Cold Case programme on BBC2, there where cases where DNA could not be extracted, yes, it does depend on the condition.
Kliffy
-
You could try Romsey or Fordingbridge.
I have a Sally/Sarah Rogers, born 1784, I think from Hampshire, working in Salisbury just before her marriage in 1817.
-
Dave, knowing your area, from your other posting, Romsey would certainly be the 'local' market town - you can walk it in well under an hour from Michelmersh.
You may also be interested in http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/hampshire/michelmersh/index.html these pots were found quite recently - at least I can remember the excitement - so you could be decended from the Saxons.
Another interesting feature, at Timsbury are the old fishing lakes of the Kings of Wessex - recently taken over by Solent University for 'big boat' training. http://www.warsashacademy.co.uk/facilities/trainingfacilities/timsbury/timsbury-lake.aspx and there is the C13 Manor Farm, a former Priory.
Kath
-
Hi Kath and jh,
Thanks for all of that information. There's a lot to be going on with. ;D
Best wishes,
Dave
-
Regarding the pots on the Wessex archaeology website, in my limited experience with the Saxons, these poits appear to be of very high quality, and wheel thrown too! The earlier Saxons were largely aceramic, and where there was pottery it often takes an expert to distinguish it between Iron Age pottery, showing that in this aspect at least the fall of Rome caused a regression of 1,000 years. In case readers are wondering what Saxons ate off, many of their vessels were made of wood or skins and the survival of these items is extremely limited.