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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northamptonshire => England => Northamptonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: salhyde on Wednesday 07 September 11 07:31 BST (UK)
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Hey Sandy,
I've been thinking about the 'bastardy' notice's you found and was wondering if you could look up another of my ancestors who I know was born illegitimately? His name was Herbert Hirons, but born Herbert White in 1881 son of Elizabeth White 1858 of Irthlingbourgh Northampton. I think they may also have lived at one time in Twywell. Hope that's not too cheeky to ask, it's just I would quite like to know who is birth father was :-)
Hope you days is good, it was lovely here in Wellington today :-)
Sally
Moderator Comment: new topic, split off from
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,553329.0.html
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Morning Sally.
The James families may have been non-conformists.
We would need to know which Church they used if that is so.
You could try Graham's web site (link below) for possible place,
then it would be if the records survive.
http://www.edintone.com/dirchap.html
Hugh Wallis's web site seems to be down at the moment where
you can usually find the records for Non-Conformity. :(
Sandy
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As to the 2nd query Sally.
On the 1891 census Elizabeth is noted as of Twywell married to
Robert Hirons (1882) and Herbert (born Burton Latimer)and siblings also.
I can not find an order, sorry.
I will look further in a while.
Sandy
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Hey thats OK :-) You've done more than enough for me, I cant thank you enough. My family tree is more complete than ever before now :-) Thankyou :D
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That's okay Sally.
It is what Roots is all about. :)
I see from Herbert's marriage certificate 25 Dec 1901 that he states
Robert as his father.
Sandy
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Does it? I have his birth cert and it doesnt have a name of father, just Elizabeth White, and I know they married after he was born. I'd like it to be Robert as I have a good knowledge of that branch of my tree, but suspect it isnt actually Robert. I dont know :-)
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Just looked again, on his birth cert it says 28th Feb 1881, Burton Latimer RSD, Herbert, Boy, Elizabeth White, Mother Domestic servant, then her x marks the spot, mother of Twywell. reg 16th April 1881. In Kettering Northampton. Just a dash for father and occupation of father.
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Hi Sally.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate, if you don't I can
transcribe the info for you.
It was not unusual to take a father's name when Mother married
and the child had been born illegitimately prior to marriage.
I will look to see if there is a Parish Record of Herbert's baptism
in the near future.
My father's line lived in Burton Latimer in the 1700's.
I lived in Irthlingborough as a child for a short time and my parents
are buried in the Cemetery there.
My great grandparents lived in Twywell in the 1880's also.
Small world, well County. :)
Sandy
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I'd like that very much.
When I started doing this research the story from family was "we don't know much about the Hirons, there was Herbert and Bertha and Herbert had 3 brothers, Horice, Ralph and Leonard" that was it. So when I started looking I found out heaps and met a woman on ancestry who connected with Hirons and Kiddles (Roberts wife) and there was a huge Norwegian connection it was really exciting. Then while looking for Herbert's birth (which I couldn't find anywhere). I noticed this discrepancy and thought 'Damn' all that info may not belong to us lol!!
This for me is all on my Dad's side of the family, He is a Hyde and was born and grew up in Rushden. I remember visiting as a child, my grans place and an aunt and some great aunts, but don't really have a good picture of what the countryside there is like. Now I live over here and have to rely on google earth to see what it is like :-) I can however imagine the accent of people there, I can clearly still imagine hearing my gran talking and my aunts etc :-)
I do know that Herbert and Bertha are burried in Newton Road cemetry, which I dont think anyone knew before.
Thanks for looking this up for me :)
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Sally if you look at my "Useful Northants Link" below this posting
it will lead you to Burton and Rushden web links plus many others
for our County.
Some of your family are noted there.
Sandy
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Okay Sally here are the marriage details.
Irthlingborough C of E after Banns
Pg. 121, No. 241
Dec 25 1901
Herbert Hirons, 21, bachelor, finisher, Highfield Terrace, Irthlingborough, father Robert Hirons, Shoemaker to
Bertha Ellen Brickwell, 20, spinster, machinist, Finedon Road, Irthlingborough, father Thomas James Brockwell (dead) fellmonger
Both signed their names.
Witnesses: Kate Eunice Brockwell, William James Brockwell x
Sandy
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Sally just to add I have most of the Parish Records for Irthlingborough at
home so if you require any more info on your family just shout.
I also have numerous graves for the village.
If you do it maybe an idea to ask a moderator to spilt the topic
in case any of your rellies may not find your Hirons on the thread.
Sandy
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I have been looking at those links and they are very interesting. I do have difficulty however working out if I was to buy a CD which would be of most use and which have my family and areas on them. I will keep on looking and thinking.
I have enjoyed looking at the photos of places and people :-).
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Sally just to add I have most of the Parish Records for Irthlingborough at
home so if you require any more info on your family just shout.
I also have numerous graves for the village.
If you do it maybe an idea to ask a moderator to spilt the topic
in case any of your rellies may not find your Hirons on the thread.
Sandy
Thanks for the transcript :-).
How do I ask the moderator to do that? That would be good as someone her might know something about the Hirons?
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I have just asked Berlin-Bob to help if possible. :)
Sandy
Moderator Comment: done :) / Bob
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Awesome thank you :)
Been looking through all the Northampton websites this afternoon :)
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Thanks Bob.
Sandy
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Hi again Sally.
Are you still stuck with other Hirons in your lineage besides Herbert.
Hopefully now topic spilt other rellies may find you. :)
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
Most of all I'd like to know if it is recorded anywhere who Herbert's father might be. I guess it wasn't something you shouted about back then, being illegitimate, so perhaps it isn't. I do know that when he was 10 months old Elizabeth was recorded on the 1881 census with her sister Lucy Beck, + husband John Beck and a one year old child in Twywell. By 1891 Elizabeth had married Robert Hirons and has several other children and were living in Irthlingborough. I do have some information about the Hirons further back and the Whites (Elizabeth's maiden name). I also know that Herbert became a hotel proprietor and died quite young 48years in 1929, his wife Bertha E Brockwell two years before him in 1927. They are both buried in Newton Road Cemetery Rushden.
I'd love to hear anything form anyone with connections to him or Bertha or any Hirons :)
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HI again Sally.
I found Herbert's baptism record today.
Twywell C of E
Pg.79, No. 631
Baptism 3rd July 1881 Born 27 Feb 1881
Herbert to Elizabeth White, Twywell
Looks as though confirmation of father is near enough impossible.
Sandy
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Thanks Sandy. It does seem like it is not possible, but it was worth a try. Thanks for the Baptism record :)
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Hi
Interested to read your comments re Herbert Hirons and his mother and stepfather, Robert. Robert is a direct ancestor of mine. Elizabeth White was my great grandmother. Mother to my grandfather Horace William, who was the first born child of Robert and Elizabeth (nee White). I can remember there being quite a family scandal when the sister of Horace and half-sister of Herbert (name of Clara) died and left Herbert and one other brother out of her Will, saying that they were not Hirons even although they had adopted that surname. It seems that Robert was definitely not the father. I don't have any further information but will ask around older members of the family if they have any further information. Herbert had died before I was born but I do have considerably older cousins who may remember more than I do.
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Hello Nee Hirons,
I was very excited to read your reply to my Herbert thread :-) Herbert Hirons was my great grandfather, my granny was Violet Hirons she married Philip Hyde. I have Herbert's birth cert and know for sure he was born a year prior to Robert and Elizabeth's marriage. I have been trying to figure it all out and my living elders all seem to have no recollection of anything spoken of. My Dad is Violets second son and his 2 siblings know nothing. I do seem to remember, and Mum says I did met Leonard Hirons.
I had just assumed that Herbert was the only illegitimate one, and I was keen to try to figure out my 'real' heritage, so wanted to try and find who his birth father was. I had no idea that there was another illegitimate child as well. Do you know the name of the other child? Do you know what Clara's last name was when she died by chance? I would love to chat more I will send you a personal message with my email :-) Sally
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Hi again Sally
I'm really sorry I can't pick up your personal message as I have only just joined this forum and I believe you have had to post a few messages before being allowed to do so. I did try but was barred from reading your message, very disappointing. I am going to try and digest all the information you have posted on the site and fit it into what I already knew about the family.
I always wondered how Johnny Hyde was related to my father, he was very proud to know Johnny and say 'he is my cousin'. I remember the family talking about Herbert being the landlord of the Wheatsheaf Inn in Rushden.
Clara (Gt Aunt to me) married Frank Walker, I remember both of them. Do you know much about Herbert's siblings? They lived in Irthlingborough not far from my grandparents, Agnes Mary and Horace William. I was born in 1951 the youngest but one grandchild of Horace Hirons, my oldest cousin was born in the 1920s! By the way, I am the daughter (last and third child of John Leonard Hirons and Constance Isabel nee Buxton), the second son an sixth child of Horace and Agnes Hirons. I have two older brothers, Michael (the rugby player) and Richard.
Elizabeth had an older child born before her marriage, his name was Fred.
I have just moved house so I am working pretty much from memory, all my research stuff is in boxes in the loft, apologies! From memory again, I believe both Elizabeth and Robert Kiddle Hirons were servants at the time of their marriage, which may explain why they married so far away from their home in Northamptonshire.
You may be interested to know that Johnny Hyde taught my older brother to play Rugby when my brother was at Wellingborough Grammar school. Johnny was very much a local hero. My brother played hooker and played for the county youth team as well as some matches for the Royal Navy. He had a good teacher.
I will try and get my head round the family tree at some stage today after I finish my work. I can recall that Robert Kiddle Hirons and Elizabeth were married in Manchester Cathedral, can't remember the date off the top of my head, sorry.
I see you live in NZ. How wonderful. I used to live in Howick, Auckland (Manukau City) in the 80s and early 90s. Miss it so much. Did you emigrate to NZ or were you born there?
You say you met Len, he was a big man, he and Ralph and Horace were all big men with hands like dinner plates! My father used to say his grandmother was over 6' tall ... I assume he was referring to Elizabeth but I can't be certain of that.
Looking forward to having some private chats with you in due course when I am allowed.(I guess the rule is to protect the users from trolls and suchlike).
How lovely to speak to a long-lost relative. I will do what I can to fill in some of the blanks about the family.
Kindest regards
Lesley
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Hi.
Lesley welcome to Rootschat :).
Just reply again and you should be able to view your new rellie's P.M.
Sandy
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Sorry if I am resurrecting an old thread but I have just found this forum after deciding to revisit my old family research. Herbert Hirons was my great grandfather, father of my grandmother Dora Hirons who married name was Ballard. Sally - I think I may have spoken to you via Ancestry.co.uk a while back and I will consider rejoining that site.
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Hi Mark Jones, yes I do seem to remember chatting to you. My grandmother was Violet Hirons (married Phillip Hyde) - Dora's younger sister. That makes us related :-). I would really like to see a photo of Herbert or Bertha, dont suppose you have any? I think I may rejoin ancestry too - its been a while :-)
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Hi again Sally
I'm really sorry I can't pick up your personal message as I have only just joined this forum and I believe you have had to post a few messages before being allowed to do so. I did try but was barred from reading your message, very disappointing. I am going to try and digest all the information you have posted on the site and fit it into what I already knew about the family.
I always wondered how Johnny Hyde was related to my father, he was very proud to know Johnny and say 'he is my cousin'. I remember the family talking about Herbert being the landlord of the Wheatsheaf Inn in Rushden.
Clara (Gt Aunt to me) married Frank Walker, I remember both of them. Do you know much about Herbert's siblings? They lived in Irthlingborough not far from my grandparents, Agnes Mary and Horace William. I was born in 1951 the youngest but one grandchild of Horace Hirons, my oldest cousin was born in the 1920s! By the way, I am the daughter (last and third child of John Leonard Hirons and Constance Isabel nee Buxton), the second son an sixth child of Horace and Agnes Hirons. I have two older brothers, Michael (the rugby player) and Richard.
Elizabeth had an older child born before her marriage, his name was Fred.
I have just moved house so I am working pretty much from memory, all my research stuff is in boxes in the loft, apologies! From memory again, I believe both Elizabeth and Robert Kiddle Hirons were servants at the time of their marriage, which may explain why they married so far away from their home in Northamptonshire.
You may be interested to know that Johnny Hyde taught my older brother to play Rugby when my brother was at Wellingborough Grammar school. Johnny was very much a local hero. My brother played hooker and played for the county youth team as well as some matches for the Royal Navy. He had a good teacher.
I will try and get my head round the family tree at some stage today after I finish my work. I can recall that Robert Kiddle Hirons and Elizabeth were married in Manchester Cathedral, can't remember the date off the top of my head, sorry.
I see you live in NZ. How wonderful. I used to live in Howick, Auckland (Manukau City) in the 80s and early 90s. Miss it so much. Did you emigrate to NZ or were you born there?
You say you met Len, he was a big man, he and Ralph and Horace were all big men with hands like dinner plates! My father used to say his grandmother was over 6' tall ... I assume he was referring to Elizabeth but I can't be certain of that.
Looking forward to having some private chats with you in due course when I am allowed.(I guess the rule is to protect the users from trolls and suchlike).
How lovely to speak to a long-lost relative. I will do what I can to fill in some of the blanks about the family.
Kindest regards
Lesley
Hi Lesley,
I have just read this - I cant beleive I missed it from so long ago. Do you know if Herbert was Roberts biological son? I saw that he was born Herbert White and Fred kept the White surname, but Herbert didnt so I was perhpas trying to read something into that. I was also wondering if you have any photos of our rellies? to share?? :-) Sally
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My mum gave me a box of old photos but I don't think there are any of Herbert of Bertha Hirons in there, unfortunately. A few of my grandmother, Dora, and maybe some of your grandmother Violet. I seem to recall that my grandmother didn't have fond memories of her father and I suspect he was an alcoholic which may explain why she was against me visiting pubs in my younger days! He died several years before my mother was born and my mum says my grandmother rarely spoke of him. He sounds a shady character!
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Ahhhh, thanks for that – that is really interesting. I have a copy of Herbert's death cert, and it does say he died of cirrhosis of the liver, and him being a publican, I was mentally putting 2 and 2 together. I wonder what 'shady' means? Do you mean he was a criminal or something?? I remember meeting Dora and I obviously remember my gran Violet, but I was 10 when she died. I’ve been trying to get info out of my Dad and his siblings, but they are not really forthcoming.
I also wondered about why Herbert and Bertha are buried in separate graves and have no headstones, I might be making more of it again, but with your info that they were a bit shady, maybe it explains why?? I also saw that Violet and Dora were often with their grandparents on census nights. Anyway I guess we will never know for sure, but alcohol and parenting has never been a great mix. On Bertha's death cert it says she died of TB and exhaustion. Life must have been hard and you can only imagine what life for our Gran's was like.
I would totally love to see any photos you have of Dora or Violet (I have a couple that I have on my ancestry tree).
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Don't look too much into my "shady" comment; it's just speculation on my part! Dora rarely spoke of her past to either me or my mum. I knew she lived at the Wheatsheaf in Rushden with Violet when they were kids and she was not happy when I used to visit that pub as a lad. I remember her telling me that nothing any good ever went in there! She did tell me that she was living there when the war memorial was being built and that both she and her sister put their names in a glass bottle that was "hidden" by the builders inside the memorial. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea! As for the graves of Herbert and Bertha, I've never got round to looking for those. The cemetery is only 15 minutes walk away so I really should do that.
I'll try and get round to scanning some of the old photos in the next few days. If you PM me your email address, I'll get some sent over to you.