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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Colur on Friday 09 September 11 19:51 BST (UK)
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I came across this photo in the family album of what appears to be a very large funeral making its way up Marine Road Dun Laoghaire. None of my older siblings can identify it or even date it for that matter.
Can anyone help please?
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5738/scan0031pp71.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/scan0031pp71.jpg/)
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A quick Google has turned up only one reference to the photographer; a photo for sale, taken by the same photographer, of one of the main characters in the 1916 Irish uprising.
So that person or studio was taking photos of well known people then (and I think, although I have limited knowledge of clothing history, that the clothes in your photo might date from roughly the same period?)
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Looking again, is it a funeral? Behind the adults are some columns of what appear to be children wearing something that reminds me of the hats that boy scouts used to wear.
I'm interested in this photo as my friend, whose tree I've been doing, has ancestors who were bigwigs in the Dublin area and if this was any sort of state or important social occasion, her gt-grandad is probably in the photo somewhere!
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This link shows a photo of the funeral of Michael Collins which is not the same but has similarities. It would certainly explain such a large turnout.
http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_family/hist_family_morgan.html
Rishile
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If it were a funeral of one the leaders of the Uprising, I'd expect the place to be swarming with police, and that's not the case in the photo on this thread.
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Hi Annie and Rishile,
Thanks so much for your prompt replies.
I can’t remember the amount of times I looked at this photo yet didn’t see as much as you guys did in a short evening. Yes they do appear to be Scouts uniforms being worn by the group leading the mourning cars. The policemen present, one on the far side of the road near the second tree down and two nearly opposite him but above on this side appear to be wearing the London ‘Bobby’ type helmets?
My parents married in 1933 and for some reason thought it would have been after that date and the only reference I can find to a large funeral having taken place in Kingstown was that of the 15 Lifeboat crew members who lost their lives on Christmas Eve 1895.
Thanks once again for your help and if there is anything I can do to help with your research from this side of the Irish Sea please don’t hesitate to contact me.
John.
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Hi Colur,
Is there any chance of a larger version of the picture? We might be able to see some more detail to help with a date, at least. My first thoughts are "funeral" but I can't see enough of the women's clothes to give you an idea of date - definitely not 1895 though, the photo format is not right for that date (it's later, probably 20s, 30s or even 40s)
Also, if we could have a scan of the back (if there's anything on it) that would be helpful.
Cheers
Prue
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Taken the liberty of enlarging the picture to see if it helps with identification
Tony
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THanks Tony, that does help a bit. I can see more of the ladies which helps with dating - I'd say 1930s, and before the war, as there are lots of men of all ages in the crowd, and no uniforms (apart from the police) as you might expect if it was wartime.
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I took the liberty of using Lynntony's edited version of the photo (which was a great help!) I have some things which might be clues for further research. I often study old pictures and the smallest details can lead to discoveries.
I marked on the pictures.
All the men at the head of the procession are well dressed and apart from one man (the one without the hat and his collar turned up) they all seem to be middle-aged men, the middle class type. The three men up front (yellow mark) as well as the two walking in front of them are wearing top hats, they are of distinctly higher stature, could be leading persons in society. if I look at the style of their ties I'd say 1920's into the 1930's (older men didn't follow fashion as quick as the rest)
Behind the men follows a group which seems to be of smaller posture. I marked some legs red because at first I thought they might be boots. Looking more closely, however, I think they are either caps or black stockings like boys would wear in that era; which could explain the smaller posture.
I am not all that certain that the cars in the background (green mark) are part of the procession. If they are - I count at least 8 of them. And cars in a procession always have a major meaning. They don't appear to be hearses, however. Before WWII these were more often horse drawn carriages.
It's strange however that the concentration of the public standing along the route also stops around there. Is this the beginning of the procession route or, perhaps, the last bit? Could the cars (lot of cars for that era) perhaps be parked there and is this the spot where the procession by foot continued?
Such a pity we can't see what it is what these men are following, something goes there. If this is indeed a funeral then it would be the coffin(s?) they follow as the living always follows the dead in a funerary procession (ceremonial military being the exception)
Thus far it's all 'if's', but if this is a funeral procession and if these cars are a part of it, then seated in them are most likely women. Who often didn't walk - it's not something written in stone. As one of my own great-grandmothers reports in her diary that she walked a mile at the funeral of her mother in law and nearly tripped over her veil.
Based on the various views I got on hair, the cloche hats and other apparel I would again date this between the 1920's and early 1930's.
This is a very interesting puzzle. I'm very curious what it is now.
Please do let us know if you happen to find out outside the forum.
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Just wondering if this could be the culmination of the procession. The building in the background appears to be a church. The procession itself seems a sombre affair, as one would associate with a funeral procession. As JMVH has said, the men at the front appear to be of quite high status, so could this be the funeral of a local dignitary? The high turnout, and the watching crowd, does seem to indicate that it was, if indeed it was a funeral, someone of great importance.
Tony
ADDED - I also notice that one of the men standing by the railings (bald head, left of pic by the tree) in front of the church has his hat removed and is holding it in front of his chest, the way one often sees/used to see when a funeral passes.
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Don't suppose it could be a memorial march?? - (e.g. like our ANZAC Day marches could it - I don't know if you have Remembrance day marches - but in ours the following cars are bringing the disabled or very old soldiers.)
Lack of soldiers in uniform seems to rule this out - but maybe some other memorial procession??
Wiggy :)
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It's difficult to see, but I think I can pick out a few possible police/authorities along both sides at the front of the crowd, possibly holding the crowd back.
There is a man in a great coat towards the middle of the line facing the camera, and I can see five capped/helmeted heads slightly taller than the crowd (towards the procession to the left and centre of the photo) as if 'holding back' the crowd, and one towards the end of the procession pacing just inside the line of people.
It's a fairly controlled and sombre crowd as you would expect at a funeral. Would this postcard be mass produced for purchase on the day at this memorable event?
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I can see the "wheel rut" in the snow near the young lads in their "scout" uniforms .... as in they are following ONE vehicle .... and there's no leaves on the trees .... The cars could well be stationary and not part of the procession, but on the other hand, they could (as mentioned earlier) be standing by to bring up the rear with the mourning women.
So while I cannot give a year, I can at least suggest a season .... Winter ....
Also, agree with Ruskie re there's uniformed men stationed at various places along the way .... I see several different service uniforms ... could be policemen and other civil organisations eg railways, firemen etc ...
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JM - I think that is one rail of a tram line - look towards the front of the procession and you'll see the rail deviating to go around the corner from one which is proceeding straight ahead!
Wiggy
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I think that's the footpath curb as it swings away to their right Wiggy .... Also I see either slippage off the tram rail or an additional wheel mark near those "scout" lads ...
Can we date it looking at the hemline of the coat of the lady (its only to just below her knee) at the far left of the photo?
Can we identify the uniform worn by this gent (snip attached) ... I am thinking chauffeur (but I can be mistooken)
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Ditto on the cloche hats...they weren't invented until the mid 1920s so no earlier than that.
Cheers,
China
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There appears to be a banner being carried just in front of the first car plus some men look like they have white sahes on. At first I thought that two of them were the noses of horses but there a line of men wearing what could be a white stripe which is why I think they are a sash.
With the shape of the banner could it be a Lodge banner?
Jean
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I wondered about that Jean - came to the conclusion that it was the metal stripe over the front of the bonnet of the vehicle - funny how differently we all see things isn't it!
The white stripes on the men/boys aren't scout ties are they?? :D :D :D I'm quite prepared to be wrong you understand - just what I see. Like the tram tracks!! ;) Though to be fair there do seem to be footprints in the snow beside the tracks - either tram or car wheel! ::) ;D
Wiggy ;)
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Alongside the wall of the church building is that wreaths leaning against that wall (spotted through gap between two males standing high ON the fence)
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Top right in the line up of vehicles ... could that be some Firemen seated atop their vehicle waiting to join the procession.
Also I notice two gentlemen, one with possibly a flag in his right hand held high as if to bring it down when the vehicles can start up, perhaps he/they are from the funeral directors at the end of the marchers.
Also there's a person standing watching the front of the parade, he is all in black, with a white tie/flounce (not sure of the correct word) and with coat and tails (see through his legs) standing near the light post. He is definitely NOT looking at the marchers passing him, but perhaps (a flight of fancy on my part), watching straight ahead as if to receive a "marshalling" signal to then pass on to the two men standing near the first car (one with the flag)
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Whereabouts is the main cemetery in Dun Laoghaire? Would people go along Marine Road to get to it?
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The route they are following has tram lines and the 'footprints' are I believe cobbles in the road. The road is also on a hill as the railings are stepped. I also think that the 'slippage' mentioned at the feet of the men by the rails there are a set of points in the tram tracks, possibly a junction in the route or a set of points used to turn back and cross over onto the other line.
That 'church' likely will still be standing.
Here is a map of the tram routes across Dublin in 1922/23;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pubv2.jpg
Next question, where are the hilly roads in the area?
P
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Might the local family history society or library be able to help with location, if not the event?
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I wonder if it might have been to do with the assassination of Commander in Chief Michael Collins in July 1922, he was assassinated in Cork. His lying in state and funeral took place in Dublin in August / September 1922.
I hope this is not a red herring :o
P
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You could be right - somone else made that suggestion at post #3 - so that's two people who think it might be!
Wiggy
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Marine Road, Dun Laoghaire Ireland IS available from goggle maps street view !
Was it snowing in Dublin in August/Sept 1922 ....
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Again though, if this was a funeral of anyone to do with civil unrest, you would expect a considerable police presence.
Were cloche hats around in 1922? I think they were later?
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Marine Road is on a slight incline but is straight; no curves as shown in the picture.
To the OP - how do you know this is Marine Road?
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Marine Road, Dun Laoghaire Ireland IS available from goggle maps street view !
Was it snowing in Dublin in August/Sept 1922 ....
I don't see the snow in the original image, but there is no foliage on the trees, so it cannot be August / September. You are quite right. So it rules out Collin's funeral. :'(
P
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Don't know if any of this helps or is even relevant. The church featured in the photo might well be St Michael's Church which is located on Marine Road. It apparently started as a small chapel but eventually developed into a very grand building. In 1965 the church was destroyed by fire. Only the great tower and spire survived. I also came across this information while browsing the internet in connectiion with this thread.
"On the 19th of June 1921 the ASU (Active Service Unit) of the Dun Laoghaire I.R.A. conducted an assassination attempt on British Military officers staying at the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire. The Hotel was a long time billet for officers staying in Dun Laoghaire and had been used by General Maxwell during the 1916 Rising.
On the night of the 19th the I.R.A. enter the Hotel and came face to face with their targets. A gun battle ensued in which local I.R.A. man James McIntosh was fatally wounded. McIntosh managed to escape the Hotel but only managed to make it as far as Marine Road a short distance from the Hotel. He was taken to the local St. Michael’s Hospital where he died two days later on the 22nd of June 1921.
As the funeral procession left St. Michael’s Church Dun Laoghaire British Soldiers stopped the procession and removed a Tricolour from the coffin, a young lady grabbed the flag from the soldier a minor scuffle broke out and Black and Tans accompanying the Soldiers fired over the head of the mourners causing panic as people dived for cover.
The funeral procession managed to continue to Dean’s Grange Cemetery where James McIntosh was buried in the Republican Plot.
James McIntosh served with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers during World War 1, he was born in County Laois in 1885.He joined the Dublin Fusiliers on the 1st of October 1914.He was wounded during the battle of the Somme and was sent home on the 6th of July 1916. He was returned to France in December 1916 and was again seriously wounded during the battle of Passchendaele on the 11th of August 1917 and spent 131 days recovering in hospital in London. He was discharged medically unfit from the Army on the 23rd of February 1920".
Regards
Doddie
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So, soldiers, police, scuffles ---
none of that matches with this picture.
I think that if this is a funeral (are we sure it is?), it was of a well known local dignitary, not of anyone involved in civil unrest (I'm beginning to feel a bit like a stuck record on that score!)
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Well I for one think it is a funeral ....
a) wreaths leaning on the side wall of the church
b) one of the employees of the funeral director waving a funeral type long black ostrich feathers standard behind the last of the marching mourners, ahead of the cars
c) the dress of the those in the parade at the left of the photo
ALTHOUGH I do notice that none are wearing the black armband ....
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It seems there was only one tramline route in Dun L at the appropriate time, running from Sandycove, along Glasthule Rd, along what is now George St and so to Dunleary Rd. (It also looks to me as though the road layout in the area has changed a little in the intervening years!) The tram didn't run up Marine Rd.
I assume that this is probably the start of the procession as it leavs the church to go to the cemetery? Maybe the hearse is at the front, left out of the picture, and the cars at the back are to take the female mourners?
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Are you sure that this photo is taken at Dun L ....
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Justice Minister Kevin O'Higgins was assassinated in Dublin in 1927 which would put it nearer yearwise for the fashions. I would have expected a greater police presence though if this was his funeral. Also the fact that the assassination took place in July and the mourners are all well wrapped up would seem to rule that out.
Oh well - back to the search!
Tony
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Could it be Contance Markievicz's funeral?
http://www.lissadellhouse.com/countess.html
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Could it be Contance Markievicz's funeral?
http://www.lissadellhouse.com/countess.html
Apparently she died in July 1927.
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http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=+walsh+funeral&type=Subject&submit=FIND&filter%5B%5D=digitised%3A%22Digitised%22
This may be the occasion - it was so important that photographers from all over Dublin may have been taking photos. See the picture of the hearse with snow on the tramlines.
PM
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Archibishop Walsh died in April. Does it look like April weather?
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http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=+walsh+funeral&type=Subject&submit=FIND&filter%5B%5D=digitised%3A%22Digitised%22
This may be the occasion - it was so important that photographers from all over Dublin may have been taking photos. See the picture of the hearse with snow on the tramlines.
PM
Clothing and tram lines look very similar, even the police (wearing bobby helmets), but there is a lot more snow in the OP's postcard. April is questionable - a cold snap perhaps. The onlookers look very rugged up though. ;)
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It has happened in Ireland....need to dig a little deeper! Its just the photos have a very similar "feel". There are nearly 400 shots of funeral processions on the NLI web site. If anyone has a sub to Irish Newspaper Archives they could probably find out which large funerals took place around the time. Do think many aspects of these photos are similar to our puzzle one.
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I agree with Doddie. Here's an old photo of St. Michael's Church on Marine Road, Dun Laoghair.
The window framing looks the same as does the lamp posts in the middle of the road.
??? What do you think?
Deb
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Yes, it does, Deb, however, on the other hand, I reside in Australia, and those centre of the street light poles, with their long cross arms are a familiar site in large rural townships in NSW even into the 1970's... And the church building itself, is not unlike so many of the churches in many locations around Australia.
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Another possibility is the funeral procession on Friday Nov 26, 1920;
Of the British Officers shot in the so called Ciaro Gang episode. This did go from the North wall to Dunlaoighre thence on to London.
PM
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... those centre of the street light poles, with their long cross arms ...
... are the supports for the power lines for the trams.
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Majm,
I guess you didn't see the small type on the bottom of the picture I posted. It says St. Michaels, on Marine Road, Dun Dunlaoighre which Colur originally posted as the same location of her picture. We are just trying to verify the location/church in her picture.
Deb
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A big thanks to all who are contributing to this post.
As I wind my way wearily through the seventh age of man I am thankful for the young eyes who have pointed out to me so much that I had missed in this photo.
I am sure of the location being St Michaels Church and Marine Road Dun Laoghaire for a number of reasons one being the name of the photographer (pointed out by Annie) as Cooks had a studio at the top of Marine Road over their large (by the Dun Laoghaire standard of the time) department store and the photo appears to be have been taken from a height. I will travel out there tomorrow morning in the hope of getting a photo from the same angle, at least, for comparison.
I am now the proud owner of three books which list off the burials of various people throughout the history of the cemetery and using the information gained here, particularly of the season, will eliminate those which would not fit the bill.
So Annie, Rishile, PrueM, Lynntony, JMVH, Wiggy, Ruskie, Majm, Chinakay, Phodgetts, Doddy, LHurrey, Pastmagic, Gracie, Geoff E thanks again for all your great help and I WILL get back to you, I promise.
Best Wishes
John.
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I think they are bicycles against the church wall.
I can't help feeling this is a Bishop or Priest's funeral, or someone like that, it's all those young boys in uniform,I don't think a rebel or politician wouldn't have them at his funeral like that.
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Yes, I have a hunch it is in fact Archbishop Walsh's funeral, or someone similar. I looked up the Ciaro gang one photos, and it was very different. I don't know where Walsh died, or if that would make a route possible via Dun Laoighre. If it was my photo I would take it into the archive of the NLI for an opinion, and let them copy it for their database - its a rel gem! They are very good at photos, helped me out a couple of times. I agree to that photos of the political funerals of the time have a different "feel" and content.
PM
PS -Thanks for posting this nice little puzzle, and happy reading!
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Majm,
I guess you didn't see the small type on the bottom of the picture I posted. It says St. Michaels, on Marine Road, Dun Dunlaoighre which Colur originally posted as the same location of her picture. We are just trying to verify the location/church in her picture.
Deb
;) Yes, Deb I did read that small type on your photo. I realise we are trying to verify the location/church in OP's photo. I am simply pointing out that the features are not unique to Dun L. :D
Yes, it does, Deb, however, on the other hand, I reside in Australia, and those centre of the street light poles, with their long cross arms are a familiar site in large rural townships in NSW even into the 1970's... And the church building itself, is not unlike so many of the churches in many locations around Australia.
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I can see at the top right of the OP photo the cars are stationary and on a bend in the road, yet behind the second car from top right, there could well be the street continuing on, ie IS there a T intersection with the cars coming from the side street and blocking the intersection. And at the left of the photo the road swings off again, around the grounds of the church.
So, my questions ....
is/was the roadway out the front of St Michaels, on Marine Road, the same road as outside the OP's photo? Google maps street view is from very recent times, and does not suggest there's bends there. The map that Phodgetts provided also does not suggest it is that same road as in the OP's photo.
is there another church in that locality where the roadway does/did move in that sweep shown in the OP's photo from the top left to the bottom right... (if standing outside the church, facing the roadway)...
PS, I feel sure that is snow on the roadway, and they are not tram tracks. There is the chap in the middle of the third row with his head down, perhaps looking at his footing as he starts to turn off to his right. I don't see any clerics, so if this is a funeral associated with a leading churchman, then perhaps their position in the procession would be ahead of the ones in this photo.
Cheers, JM
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Please consider the Church on Carrickbrennan Road, Dun L
EDIT TO ADD
So, if this is a funeral and if the procession is in Dun L, then to which cemetery were they heading? Which of these cemeteries was accepting burials in the 1920’s and/or 1930’s, or was it a cemetery at a greater distance away?
Friends (Quakers) Burial Grounds
Dean’s Grange Cemetery
Shanganagh Cemetery
St Peter’s Graveyard
St Fintans Cemetery
Killester Grave Yard
Cheers, JM
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Counted quite a few police positioned at front roadside.
(red = definite, orange = possables)
Also there are a couple of what appear to be British Uniforms
in the crowd.....(highlighted in yellow).
Poss a local event / funeral ???
Skippy
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I think the bloke in the second row with his head down is just in a contemplative mood!
We could always wait until Colur gets back after reading the book !!
Wiggy ;)
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Hi Everyone,
When first laid out the Marine Road was known as the 40 Foot Road (because of its width) It links Georges Street (which St Michaels Church fronts onto) and Victoria / St Michaels Wharf.
Half way down its length it forms a junction with Eblana Avenue on the left and Gresham Terrace on the right. Gresham Terrace leads up to the Royal Marine Hotel and the avenue would have provided ample parking for the large number of cars accompanying this? funeral. The photo only shows half the width of the road and indeed half its length giving the impression that it does end and turn sharp right which IS the case with the church on Carrickbrennan Road.
Kingstown / Dun Laoghaire hosted many turn of the century events such as Royal visits and in 1932 the arrival of the Papal Nuncio but all of these were very lavish affairs full of buntings, banners, flags and cheering crowds.
I am delighted with the interest this photo has generated and will forward it on to the National Library as suggested to see if they can throw any light on it. Deans Grange was the only cemetery accepting burials in the area from the mid 1860’s on so I am guessing that was where the funeral was heading.
The books contain upwards of 300 notable burials in Deans Grange and basing my search on a ‘seasonal’ one I am going through them and eliminating those who were interred during the months between April and September.
As I said earlier I will try for some photos of the area this morning before the town gets busy.
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This is a fascinating photo. So many questions.
I have been looking at the Kingstown website which has pages and pages of information including a page for Boy Scouts from Dublin who died in the Great War and I wonder if, as there appear to be some scouts in the parade, if perhaps it was the funeral of a local boy/man who died after returning from France.
I don't know how large Dun L was at that time but in the listings of soldiers who died there are a number who were buried at Deans Grange. Is there anything on the reverse of the photo to give a clue as to the date?
Jean
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Hi Jean,
Fully agree that the photo has generated so many questions.
I am going through some books at the moment had had dismissed pre 1920 burials in Dens grange but will check back now on the C W G C Section as yours is a very good point.
Thanks,
John.
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I've really enjoyed reading this thread and all the detective work going on. :D
I only realised the photographer's name when I read Colur's post. I had been looking for Neville photographers - now I see it as C Neville Cook ::)
One thing though that puzzles me is that Kingstown reverted to Dun Laoghaire (or the anglicised version) in 1920 - would the photographers continue with the stamp as Kingstown after that or would they have changed it? Did it continue to be known by both names?
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Well I for one think it is a funeral ....
a) wreaths leaning on the side wall of the church
I don't think they are wreaths. I think they are bicycles. They are parked at about 45o to the church wall. You can clearly see the wheel of one of them (directly below the right-hand window on the church), and what appear to be the pedals of another.
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Agree - I don't think they are wreaths either. Bikes! :)
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Hi Heywood and thanks for your interest. You and me both, I thought it was a family photo until Annie pointed it out. It was suggested to me yesterday that Cooks might have used old stocks of paper for printing when I pointed out the 'Kingstown' name.
I took some photos this morning of the area as it is now . Much changed but those of us who were living out there before the changes will know the original photo as being that of St Michaels and the Marine Road
The three story building is where Cooks Studio used to be up until the late ‘50’s and where I think the photo was taken from.
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3280/004agh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/004agh.jpg/)
This is from roughly the same angle but from ground floor level. The road has much changed since the fire and the building of the new church and shopping centre but as can be seen the road travels on down to the ferry terminal where once the wharf was.
The glass building on the right is where the cars are exiting to join the funeral procession.
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1161/003bof.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/003bof.jpg/)
This photo shows the avenue from which the cars are exiting and turning left onto the Marine Road.
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6087/009mlz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/009mlz.jpg/)
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It's fascinating what posters see and point out.
I agree with Jenb re the bicycles.
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Thanks for the photos!
I enlarged as far as possible those vehiceles at the end of the procession - sorry for the poor quality.
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I've been following this with great interest.
It seems to a large extent to have turned from whose funeral is it to where is it taking place?
I think the OP has again made it quite clear in reply #61:
Much changed but those of us who were living out there before the changes will know the original photo as being that of St Michaels and the Marine Road
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Thank you for those current photos.
Cheers, JM
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I do not pretend to know anything about the area - but wonder if this report has any relevance at all - it may be totally unconnected of course!
John Jenkins
On the 4th of May 1921 a Volunteer with the Dun Laoghaire I.R.A. stationed at the naval base in Dun Laoghaire died as a result of an accident. Volunteer John Jenkins was cleaning his rifle when he accidentally discharged it resulting in a fatal bullet wound to the head. John Jenkins had served ten years in the British Army before returning to Ireland and joining the I.R.A.
John Jenkins lived at Saint Mary’s Cottages Monkstown and left a wife and six children. He was given a funeral with full military honours and many National newspapers reported on the large procession that followed the coffin as it was taken to Dean’s Grange Cemetery. The Procession included comrades from the Naval Base at Dun Laoghaire as well as other I.R.A. units as well as Fianna Scouts, ex-service men and a fife and drum band. John Jenkins was laid to rest in the Republican Plot.
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Coming at it from a different angle, they are probably long lost, so this is a very long shot:
is there any possibility of viewing the photographer's records ??
Bob
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No JM, thank you. Everyone has been very helpful and constructive with their suggestions. Pastmagic has come up with an improved image of the third last vehicle, JenB has joined us and shanghipanda has given me yet another lead.
It just gets better and better.
I have now read up on major events in the history of Kingstown which might attract a large funeral, both in attendances and the number of burials.
The first being the RNLI Lifeboat tragedy when 15 crew members were drowned off Kingstown on 24th December 1895 and 13 of them were buried in a single day in Deans Grange Cemetery. PruM has already ruled this out from the photo supplied.
The second, again a sea disaster occurred on 18 October 1918 when the Leinster was sunk by a German U-boat and 501 people were lost. Nine of the victims were buried in Deans Grange.
I thought I might have solved it when I found photos (dress code pretty similar, mans opinion?) of the departure of the Papal Nuncio from Dun Laoghaire after the Eucharistic Congress but this event was held in June of 1932.
The next big one to possible attract a large gathering was the burial of Count John McCormick but his funeral took place on the 16th September 1945 and the bare trees in the first photo compared to today’s photos ruled that one out.
The search continues………
Bob just caught your post and that would be brilliant if I can find something out, thanks.
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I don't think those cars are parked, they are following.
I don't think there is any snow, I know the line between the footpath and the road makes it look like snow on the ground but why is there no sign of snow on the top of the wall, railings etc. one or two of the trees looks like they might have a little snow on them but that could be the light.
BTW the day Archbishop Walsh was buried was a very cold day, William Scott Architect died, on 23 April 1921 from pneumonia brought on by a severe chill caught when he walked in his university robes in Archbishop Walsh's funeral procession
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I agree, I don't think there's any snow. What look like footprints between the right-hand side of the marching column and the crowd are the marks of the cobbles. There is a large crowd showing on the left of the photo, and not a 'footprint' to be seen in front of them.
But it's clearly a winter scene. No leaves at all on the trees, and everyone very well wrapped up. I would say late October/ early November - March.
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It doesn't look like a funeral of a clergyman. Archbishop Walsh was brought from the Pro-Cathedral to Glasnevin - a long way from Dun Laoghaire.
I think the possibility that shanghaipanda suggested is a very strong one:
John Jenkins
On the 4th of May 1921 a Volunteer with the Dun Laoghaire I.R.A. stationed at the naval base in Dun Laoghaire died as a result of an accident. Volunteer John Jenkins was cleaning his rifle when he accidentally discharged it resulting in a fatal bullet wound to the head. John Jenkins had served ten years in the British Army before returning to Ireland and joining the I.R.A.
John Jenkins lived at Saint Mary’s Cottages Monkstown and left a wife and six children. He was given a funeral with full military honours and many National newspapers reported on the large procession that followed the coffin as it was taken to Dean’s Grange Cemetery. The Procession included comrades from the Naval Base at Dun Laoghaire as well as other I.R.A. units as well as Fianna Scouts, ex-service men and a fife and drum band. John Jenkins was laid to rest in the Republican Plot.
The gentleman in the London bobby style helmet looks like a pre-Garda Síochána officer, which would put it pre 1925 I believe.
It would make sense for the funeral to be taking that route if they intended to walk (as is common in Irish funerals) past his home in Monkstown on the way to the cemetery at Deansgrange.
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I think it could be some other clergyman but I was making the point of how cold it was in April that year, it could conceivably have been as cold in May but that bit more unlikely.
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I have looked more closely at the photo and I notice that the posts in the centre of the road are straight as an arrow down the road, they do not turn where the cars suggest there is a bend in the road. So the vehicles are following in the procession and are part way through a turn from one street into this one. There is no bend or curve in the road.
P
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Heres a photo of Marine road from a book (sorry dont know from when or where )it shows Marine road from the top looking downwards towards the harbour -
there is no doubt that it is Marine road with St. Michael's church on the left
but who's funeral??????
what a puzzle you have created Colur
regards
Tommy
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Can I suggest that a close-up scan be made of some of the more pertinent people in the crowd, for example a policeman and several ladies, as well as people in the procession, to enable a better idea of date and identification of uniforms?
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I have read this post with interest and I have noticed all the comments re date but surely the lady who is leaning against the railings with the two children is wearing a fox fur stole or a fox fur collar highly fashionable in mid 1930s.
James
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I have read this post with interest and I have noticed all the comments re date but surely the lady who is leaning against the railings with the two children is wearing a fox fur stole or a fox fur collar highly fashionable in mid 1930s.
James
I agree James - and this is what I suggested at Reply #8 ;) All the speculation about 1920s funerals is on the wrong track, in my opinion, and by getting a better scan of some of the ladies (whose fashion will be more dateable than the fellas') we will be able to place it somewhere in the early-mid 30s, I'm pretty certain.
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There's several men in the procession who are clearly hatless... they seem to be tall enough to be adults, yet younger than those somber chaps leading this section of the procession.
I wonder does that give any pointer to the social ettiquette of the 1930's v 1920's ....
Also I mentioned earlier about the hemline on the coat of one particular lady (on the far curb near where the procession is turning towards their right) ... so close to her knees rather than longer towards her ankles... (lady has dark coat, light hat, wearing "high" heels I think, she's at far left looking at the photo, and thus immediately to the left of those somber men at the "head")
Cheers, JM
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Another suggestion, this time from my OH ...
Confirm the year for the photo from Tommy.
Then find someone who can identify the trees, and in turn then date the OP's photo from deducing the age of the trees in both photos ...
Cheers, JM
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A few more observations. I can only see one person in military uniform - standing bottom left in line with second row of top hatted men - so it doesn't appear to be a military occasion. There is no great police presence - about five or six officers - that I can make out, which suggests that the police were not expecting any kind of trouble/demonstration. The large contingent of scouts does suggest a civic dignitary or local leader of some description, also born out by the presence of the fire tender towards the back of the line of cars. The trees seem totally bare of leaves which would suggest early or late in the year.
I've attached two cropped images which I hope will help tie down the period
Tony
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Hi Tony,
Can you take a snip of the lady with the even shorter coat .... far left hand side of the photo, on the bend, please... dark coat, light hat, arms folded at her elbows perhaps
Sorry, but my snipping skills are not the best...
Many thanks, JM
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Hi Tony,
Can you take a snip of the lady with the even shorter coat .... far left hand side of the photo, on the bend, please... dark coat, light hat, arms folded at her elbows perhaps
This one? Is the one with the light hat on the row behind?
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Yes, thank you so much ...
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Is that last lady wearing a cloche hat? Is it turned up at the rim?
From wikipedia:
The cloche hat is a fitted, bell-shaped hat that was invented by milliner Caroline Reboux in 1908, became especially popular during the 1920s, and continued to be commonly seen until about 1933.
By the end of the 1920s, it became fashionable to turn the brims on cloche hats upwards. This style remained prevalent until the cloche hat became obsolete around 1933 or '34.
Full source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloche_hat
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I know nothing about Dublin but this 537 page pdf reveals quite a few options options. Am sifting through for those buried in Dean's Grange in winter month's in the late 20's and 30s and getting a long write up to justify the crowd.
http://www.irishspiritans.ie/spiritan_author_doc/fr_sean_farragher/irish_spiritans_remembered.pdf
BRENNAN, Fr Nicholas 1854-1928 - Former Dean of Blackrock college (could explain the boys at the back of the procession)
Fr Nicholas J. Brennan died 4th October 1928 aged 74 years and was buried in Dean’s Grange.
HYLAND, Fr Michael J. 1848-1930
Fr Michael Hyland, who could lay claim to be one of the best known ‘characters’ of the Irish Province for some fifty years died 14 October 1930 aged 82 years. He was buried in Dean’s Grange.
BUNBURY, Br Achilles (Thomas) 1848-1924
Br Achilles Bunbury died 31 December 1924 aged 75 years. He was buried in Dean’s Grange.
CREHAN, Fr Edward 1861-1939
Dr Edward Crehan died 2 January 1939 aged 77 years and was buried in Dean’s Grange. Former Dean of Rockwell
O'BRIEN, Fr Thomas F. 1871-1928
Finally, his large and generous sympathy for the poor and the distressed, was from start to finish, an outstanding trait of his character." Fr Thomas O’Brien died 13 December 1928 aged 57 years. He was buried in Dean’s Grange.
DOWNEY, Fr Michael J 1861-1936
Fr Michael Downey, who had suffered from indifferent health all his life, died 17 November 1936 aged 75 years. He was buried in Dean’s Grange. President of Blackrock
There are some other potentials as well...
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I looked at the police uniform. This is typical of the late 1930's early 1940's. Then looked at the scouts, the number of them, approx 36, and why they would be there. I wonder if this is a remembrance service parade for Robert Baden Powel's death in 1941.
This may explain why there is no hearse in sight.
Regards
Malky.
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Hi Tony,
Can you take a snip of the lady with the even shorter coat .... far left hand side of the photo, on the bend, please... dark coat, light hat, arms folded at her elbows perhaps
This one? Is the one with the light hat on the row behind?
I think you're right Geoff. The woman in front of her is leaning to her right as if talking to the person next to her, thus giving the appearance of the "white hat lady" being attached to the dark coat. ( I think that makes sense!!)
Tony
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Scout or schoolboy? Thinking Scouts or Fianna.
PS Edited photo again.
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I know nothing about Dublin but this 537 page pdf reveals quite a few options options. Am sifting through for those buried in Dean's Grange in winter month's in the late 20's and 30s and getting a long write up to justify the crowd.
http://www.irishspiritans.ie/spiritan_author_doc/fr_sean_farragher/irish_spiritans_remembered.pd
Great piece of detective work! And you have made me think of a real issue with this - which is that Marine Rd is out of the way of many funeral routes of people who might be suspects- unless of course one of the priests died in a nursing home and the procession is a "removal" to a church the day before the funeral service, from the house the died in - an Irish custom. I have discovered Archbishop Walsh died in a nursing home, no mention of where, was removed to the Pro-Cathedrial, and was buried in Glasnevin. So like these priests, his funeral procession would not go through Dun L, but a removal would, if he happened to die there. As late as 1980, when a relative of mine died at home close to the church of his funeral mass, he was in the night before the funeral mass, over 4000 people turned up at outside the house and followed the coffin to the "removal" service" - this was in a small town, and he was just a local merchant. Wonder if this custom was followed in Dublin in the 1920/30's. What a puzzle!
PM
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I can see you're point Pastmagic and it did cross my mind but there are a lot of cars following which made me think this person was well know out side the local area and so may have been a bit more important. I don't think traffic would have been heavy enough back then to cause a traffic hold up to that extent. Or if as someone noticed there is a fire appliance than maybe the person is at the hero level which would draw people from outside.
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Are you sure that isn't snow?
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Cobbles and tramlines seems more likely from previous comments!
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I vote for snow.......Hello, Wiggy, Greensleves, glad to see you two in on this interesting mystery!
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Definitely looks like snow to me. Much too pale to be cobbles and tram lines, surely?
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I've been flollowing this without commenting so far. But I too vote for snow - if you look the other side of the railings into the grounds of the church the ground is the same colour but flat - not cobbled. It looks like snow.
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Cobbles and tramlines.You can see where the tramline parts near the bottom.
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Exactly what I said in post #14 George!!
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Well ya know what they say,great minds and all that ;D
Hello Pastmagic,nice to see you about.
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It might be cobbles and tramlines but I'm 100% certain they're under snow!
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It might be cobbles and tramlines but I'm 100% certain they're under snow!
Me too :)
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just wondering
at this stage we know its Dun Laoghaire/Kingstown (I'm from D/L ;D)
it is St. Michaels church -it is Marine road -
there are a couple of photos showing the laying of the tracks up Royal Marine rd. 1880s-plus a couple of photos out side the church
https://stillslibrary.rte.ie/
But looking at Seoras take on this there are a fair amount of boy scouts in the cortage /parade
but Ive been google-ing left right and centre but no luck so far
It may not be a funeral -but it is a bit sombre looking
Tommy
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I should make clear I know nothing of Irish etiquette/customs of the time, but would all those hats really have remained on heads in the presence of a passing funeral procession?
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It doesn't matter if it's snow or not, we know it's cold, if we do ever figure out what day it is than maybe a report of it will say if there was snow that day and than we can put this issue to bed.
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I should make clear I know nothing of Irish etiquette/customs of the time, but would all those hats really have remained on heads in the presence of a passing funeral procession?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Funeral_procession_of_Dr._Walsh,_Archbishop_of_Dublin,_hearse_en_route_to_Glasnevin_Cemetery.jpg
Look at this photo only the people near the hearse doff their hats, and than put they back on, and not everyone seems to even do that much.
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Sorry double post
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Hello Seoras,
All roads lead to Irish Tramlines, I am sure RM is going to pop up and sole this one for us....!
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I voted for snow quite a number of pages ago ;D to me these are wheel marks from the left hand side of the forward vehicle which was towing something, as in perhaps a gun carriage and that it was snow banking up on the top left side near the lady in the short coat (Geoff has kindly snipped her). Of course these are only suggestions, but yes the trees are without leaves, so that shows their season, and the people are all rugged up so that shows it was cold. On the otherhand, There's not a lot of shadow showing on the "snow" so it could well be cobbles rather than snow, and I am definitely not a "local" as I am in Australia.....
I know I have asked this before, but in what year did Irish women first wear clothing that only came to "just below the knees" as in that snip that Geoff made at my request?
There are variations in the hemline for a number of women, but perhaps the lass showing "that amount of leg" can help determine which would be the earliest year ..... if it were Australia I would be saying early 1930's on that.
Then there's the cars .... can we date these ..... Most are "closed" permanent roof, with the exception of the one that I think could be the firemen "bus"....
And when did "all the horses" disappear off the scene .... If they were in the procession I would have expected them either to be in the photo, or for some manure to have been dropped along the way ... I cannot see any .... and there's no hoofprints on the tramlines/wheel ruts either .... Agh .... there's a case in favour of tramlines .... NONE of the men walk ON or encroach OVER these ....
Anyways, that's my thoughts after again looking at the photo. My OH says that there are people who can help date trees from photos, so any ideas for the type of tree please...
Cheers, JM
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Re the closeup photo of 'tram tacks' posted by George ...
If the procession was following a horse drawn hearse, this might leave tracks like those seen in a light fall of snow.
I notice that on the straight stretch of road, that the possible wheel marks are in a line as if the back wheels followed the front wheels precisely, but as the 'cart' turns the corner slightly, the back and front wheels follow a slightly different path, as can be seen by two sets of tracks.
(Apologies if someone has already pointed this out ;))
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Another who has been reading with interest but hasn't yet commented...
Could the road cobbles be wet from recent rain and the light colour be from the water reflecting the overcast sky?
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As there is no snow lying on the tree branches nor the masonry of the surrounding fence/wall of the building to the left (church or whatever) I go with the refractive effect of rain in natural lioght on cobbles and the process of developing of the early photographs.
Regards
Malky
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I go with the refractive effect of rain in natural lioght on cobbles
... But the visible parts of the churchyard, and the free area before the procession seem very white to me. It suggests a light snowfall, which has now mostly gone. Some (not all) of the tree branches seem to still have some snow on them and the "wet-look" of the cobbles could be because the snow that was there has now been trodden away.
Bob
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Instead of a funeral could it be a Corpus Christi Procession, boy scouts and cubs play a part in that as do local public services like fire brigade and police as well as local dignitaries.
check this out for interest www.dunlaoghairecounty.ie
James
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Feast of Corpus Christi falls in June in Australia, which of course June down here is wintertime .... surely it would be a June date in Dun L .... has it snowed in June in Dun L ?
Cheers, JM
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ummm.... There's snow on the roof of each of the motorcars .... ::)
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As there is no snow lying on the tree branches nor the masonry of the surrounding fence/wall of the building to the left (church or whatever) I go with the refractive effect of rain in natural lioght on cobbles and the process of developing of the early photographs.
Regards
Malky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways
See what you mean - a lot of these photos are similar. (How stupid they were to kill off the trams.)
On the other hand Berlin Bob is right about light snow fall. However removing the snow argument opens up the photo to be taken any month of the year given the vagaries of Irish weather......
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"ummm.... There's snow on the roof of each of the motorcars .... ::)"
What about the "White-wall tyres". Deep snow?? :D :D
Regards
Malky
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The fixed roof motorcars did not usually have a different colour on their roof from the body of the vehicle. (Production line vehicles) However, it would be interesting to learn when white walled tyres were introduced. It is logical to presume that the persons in charge of each vehicle would remove snow from the bonnet easily simply by keeping the motors running....
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Just curious, why no footprints behind the lead "mourners"??
Regards
malky.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways
See what you mean - a lot of these photos are similar. (How stupid they were to kill off the trams.)
Looking at the photos on this link - the 'snow' effect is apparent in very many of them ::)
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Just curious, why no footprints behind the lead "mourners"??
Regards
malky.
There's not too many clear spots for the footprint to be shown, and from my take of the photographer's own position, the photographer was not high enough to have captured the footprints in that photo of any of the THREE men "leading" the procession. I can see "scuff marks" (perhaps trampled footprints) further back in the procession, near the "scouts" and others...
Cheers, JM
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Just a thought - is it really really important whether there is snow or not? ;D ;D
- it's Winter - surely that's all that matters - having snow isn't going to provide the answer is it - or is it?? :-\ ;) ;)
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True Wiggy,true,but if they arrived by bike they left no tyre marks.
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The snow or not question is only important becaause snow would narrow the date to a day when snow actually fell in Dublin - few and far between usually, in Dublin. Most years there was no snow at all. The fact is we can be out in overcoats any time of the year as Irish weather can produce a cold snap without snow any time of the year! The other problem is that there were an awful lot of deaths, because of the politics of the time which would have warranted a big funeral. It is just hard to figure out who died and would have went from or via Marine Rd Dunlaoighre.
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Interestingly, I have just "Google mapped " Marine Rd, Dunlaoighre, and traced up it on satelite view. How sure are we that this photograph is of a section of Marine Rd, Dunlaoighre.
Regards
Malky
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Interestingly, I have just "Google mapped " Marine Rd, Dunlaoighre, and traced up it on satelite view. How sure are we that this photograph is of a section of Marine Rd, Dunlaoighre.
From the OP
Much changed but those of us who were living out there before the changes will know the original photo as being that of St Michaels and the Marine Road
The road has much changed since the fire and the building of the new church and shopping centre
And from someone who lives there
at this stage we know its Dun Laoghaire/Kingstown (I'm from D/L ;D)
it is St. Michaels church -it is Marine road -
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Don't know if this has been mentioned, apologises if it has, but if this is a funeral wouldn't most of the men in the crowd have removed their hats as a mark of respect? I remember this happening when funerals went past when I was younger. No one seems to be in the act of replacing their hats.
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If a funeral, then perhaps the hats were placed back on their heads after the hearse had passed. In the 1950's I stood beside my father in a large crowd as a funeral procession passed. All the hatted men took their hats off, most put them back on after the hearse had passed. My father kept his hat over his heart until the entire procession had passed. When I asked him why, he explained, it was "his way, taught to him by his Dad", and the others paid their respects "their way", but we had all "paid our respects" in the right way for each of us.
I can see at least one man with his hat held across his heart. He is standing on the fence outside the churchyard, not much hair on top, and there are men in the procession not wearing any hat... To me the lack of hats on some in the procession that also is pointing to the photo being into the 1930's rather than soon after WWI .
Cheers, JM
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Don't know if this has been mentioned, apologises if it has, but if this is a funeral wouldn't most of the men in the crowd have removed their hats as a mark of respect? I remember this happening when funerals went past when I was younger. No one seems to be in the act of replacing their hats.
See Reply #104 page 11
and look at the photo in the link.
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Are they boy scout unfiforms... or school blazers with different coloured edging?
And are there a number of men in robes behind the scouts / schoolboys? Looks like there could be some tutors at the back maybe?
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http://www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=252
Even scouting in Ireland had a role to play in the War of Independence. Scroll down to the photo from 1913 - the last group photo on the page - and look at the hats.
Then there were the ordinary Baden Powell variety:
http://www.scouts.ie/more/about_scouting_ireland/history_of_scouting_ireland-177.html
And of course the catholic church made its own variety:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_Ireland_(CSI)#Early_days_of_CBSI
This is really complicated.
i don't know if the irish schoolboy of the period wore hats......
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Hi Folks,
I have been following all the replies with great interest and following the leads where possible.
I found out today that the original cobblestones which lined the roads were made of granite, it being in plentiful supply in the whole area and one of the reasons why Dun Laoghaire was chosen as the location of the ‘asylum’ harbour in 1817. The light colour of the granite, as opposed to cobblestones made from other materials such as calp might be the reason why so many posters feel that there is snow on the ground in the original photo but look at the photos on Page 3 which show the new cobblestones made from the same material when the streets were made into pedestrian only areas.
I know I shouldn’t laugh but I loved the little story from Sinnann at Reply # 69.
JM came up with a brilliant suggestion regarding the trees in reply # 79 I know from my readings that the church when first built was fronted by a group of shops (one being a pub) which left only a narrow entrance off Georges Street into the church grounds. It was only when these shops were purchased and demolished around 1890 that the church was enclosed by the railing shown in the earlier photos. All photos at # 43, 61, 79 and the OP show these trees and I have contacted the Gardening Section of DLRCC in the hope that they can throw some light on the situation.
I have also contacted a member of the Irish Vintage Car Club and am awaiting a book from him in the hope of identifying and aging the vehicles.
The biggest problem for me at the moment is the police uniform. The ‘Bobby’ type helmet and uniform were not worn on the streets of Dublin after 1922 according my sources and if this is true then the whole issue of what decade is thrown wide open again.
Thanks again everyone for your contributions. By the way my son is a member of the police force here and I told him of the great detective work being carried out on this subject and suggested that he post some of his ‘Cold Cases’ as he is sure to get results HAHA
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Every day I check in here for any further postings and also to see if I can ' spot ' anything. It's a fascinating subject which will no doubt be solved by our clever Rootschatters.
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Yes. it is reallly interesting on these long puzzles how they get dissected here, and eventually get solved. i have seen threads where lots of people seem to be wandering round and round the same tiny detail - like bobies hats and the coluor of cobbles, and suddenly it all comes together. Off to chase the bobbys hat, the scouts hat, the undertakers hat, the cloche,,,,hats off to all the contributors..
http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=police+uniforms+ric+dublin&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=VGwx3c008upbbM:&imgrefurl=http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php%3FPH
Nice pic of the origial hat and a problem solved!
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Hi Folks,
I found out today that the original cobblestones which lined the roads were made of granite, it being in plentiful supply in the whole area and one of the reasons why Dun Laoghaire was chosen as the location of the ‘asylum’ harbour in 1817. The light colour of the granite, as opposed to cobblestones made from other materials such as calp might be the reason why so many posters feel that there is snow on the ground in the original photo but look at the photos on Page 3 which show the new cobblestones made from the same material when the streets were made into pedestrian only areas.
It looks like there is also 'snow' inside the fence up to the church. Or is that also light coloured granite cobbles?
I'm not sure, but I also think there is a little snow on top of some of the branches of the trees (as previously pointed out).
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I looked for the history of the uniforms today and thought I had read that it was mid 20s when the Garda Siochana was formed - you would imagine that there would be a desire to move away from the old style but if they were considered safer- perhaps they kept the helmets.
Having said that - I've had another look around for any photos and can only find a very few photos but they have the flat caps.
I too love everyone's efforts at detection. I had missed so much on first looking. At the moment, I am off the snow theory but I could change my mind I suppose.
With regard to the scouts when I was looking earlier, I think there are a couple of adults in front of the boys with 'Baden Powell' type hats and then behind the scouts, there look to be some boys in a different uniform. The one on the left of these men even looks like a woman with a rounded crown on the hat.
Then the group behind the scouts, are different in that they look to have either a white shirt behind a jacket or something.
I look forward to tomorrow. :D
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There were a lot of funerals pre 1922 - here is just one episode :
On the 19th of June 1921 the ASU (Active Service Unit) of the Dun Laoghaire I.R.A. conducted an assassination attempt on British Military officers staying at the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire. The Hotel was a long time billet for officers staying in Dun Laoghaire and had been used by General Maxwell during the 1916 Rising.
On the night of the 19th the I.R.A. enter the Hotel and came face to face with their targets. A gun battle ensued in which local I.R.A. man James McIntosh was fatally wounded. McIntosh managed to escape the Hotel but only managed to make it as far as Marine Road a short distance from the Hotel. He was taken to the local St. Michael’s Hospital where he died two days later on the 22nd of June 1921.
As the funeral procession left St. Michael’s Church Dun Laoghaire British Soldiers stopped the procession and removed a Tricolour from the coffin, a young lady grabbed the flag from the soldier a minor scuffle broke out and Black and Tans accompanying the Soldiers fired over the head of the mourners causing panic as people dived for cover.
The funeral procession managed to continue to Dean’s Grange Cemetery where James McIntosh was buried in the Republican Plot.
http://irishmedals.org/gpage49.html
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This thread is so fascinating, it could well be as fascinating as the threads from last year about the Diary of Nathaniel on another RChat Board .... Shared views, at times off on tangents, but all co-operating and working towards solving the puzzle.
Like Heywood wrote, "I look forward to tomorrow" well of course I do....
Cheers, JM
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This thread is so fascinating, it could well be as fascinating as the threads from last year about the Diary of Nathaniel on another RChat Board ....
Cheers, JM
Never JM. Never. ;D
As others have already been mentioned, surely there would have been a much larger police presence if any 'trouble' was expected at this funeral. So maybe the funeral of someone less 'divisive'.
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I found a "C. Neville Cook", Photographer and Stationer, on Marine Road in a 1916 Dublin Directory.
I was wondering... if "Kingstown" was changed to "Dun Laoghaire" in 1920, and the photographer's stamp on the picture says "Kingstown" could one assume that the picture was taken before 1920? or is that really, really, really, really stretching it? :o :o :o
Deb
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Another funeral:
MURDER OF A MILITARY POLICEMAN – A NATIVE OF LEIX
One of the tragedies of the Civil War period was recalled on Monday last when Mr. E. J. Conroy, M.R.C.V.S., Leix Co. Coroner, held an inquest at Maryborough Prison touching the death of a prisoner named James Murray, an ex-Captain of the Free State National Army.
The deceased was at the Central Criminal Court, Dublin , on 12th June, 1925, convicted of the murder at Kildare on 13th December 1923, of a military policeman named James Bergin, a native of Mountrath. He was sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted to penal servitude for life.
At the inquest the following jury was sworn – Francis J. Cahill, foreman; Nicholas Fortune, John Parneil, John Tyrrell, Thomas F. Maher, Jos. Fox, Patrick Murphy, Bartholomew Shanahan.
The Governor of the Prison (Mr. L. J. Blake) identified the body, and gave evidence of the convictions and sentence in the case. The deceased, he further stated was received into his custody on the 27th July, 1925. Since the 1st November, 1928, he had been a patient in the Prison isolation hospital. He was attended throughout his illness by the medical officer and hospital staff, and frequently visited by the Chaplain. He died at 6.55 p.m. on Saturday last.
Dr. T. J. Duane, Medical Officer of the Prison, said that the health of the deceased was fair on committal, but he had a history of pulmonary tuberculosis, and had been in a sanatorium. The cause of death was pulmonary tuberculosis.
Sergeant Patrick Burke, G.S., Maryborough, deposed that he was informed by the Prison Governor of the death of James Murray. He (witness) viewed the remains and saw no external marks of violence, and there was no suspicion of foul play.
The jury found a verdict in accordance with the medical testimony.
Relatives of the deceased were at the Prison on Monday, and in the afternoon they brought the remains by motor hearse to St. Michael’s Church, Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin . The funeral took place at Dean’s Grange Cemetery on Tuesday.
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2009/11/a_civil_war_tragedy_recalled_1.asp
Not sure it matters about Kingston on the photo - think Colur has sorted that one earlier in the thread. Just giving this as an erxample of what was going on.
If anyone is near Dun L would it be worth taking a copy to an Undertaker there? Some of them have great knowledge of their areas and have been there for a few generations. PM
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1, 8, 15, 22, 29 September 1929 were Sundays
20 Sept 1929 was a Friday... The cutting is from Leinster Leader 20th September 1929
James Murray's funeral was on Tuesday 17 September 1929. His body was at St Michael's Dun L on Monday 16 Sept.
JM
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Thanks JM! Depends on what hose trees turn out to be, and when they are bare in Sept! Here is another candidate - unless he was church of ireland not RC:
Railway engineer. Joshua Harrison Hargrave, eldest son of of Abraham Addison Hargrave of Cork and a great-grandson of ABRAHAM HARGRAVE [1] , was, according to the 1911 census, born in Cork city in1860 or 1861. After obtaining the BA degree in 1879 and the BE degree in 1881 from the Royal University of Ireland, he was articled to Wells-Owen & Elwes of Westminster. From 1884 to 1889 he was on the engineering staff of the English Great Western Railway Co. In 1889 he returned to Ireland to take up the post of chief assistant to WILLIAM HEMINGWAY MILLS , engineer-in-chief of the Great Northern railway. He remained with the company until his death, chiefly occupied in bridge construction and in work on the Ardee and Castlewellan extensions. He was also involved in laying out the Howth electric tramway.
Hargrave was a keen yachtsman and was honorary secretary of the Dublin Bay Sailing Club and the Dun Laoghaire branch of the Lifeboat Institution. He died at home in Dun Laoghaire on 25 January 1924 after being in poor health for over a year, . His wife, Louise, daughter of Dr Foster Newland, of Mount Haigh, Dun Laoghaire, whom he had married on 12 June 1897, and two children, Joshua and Ethel, survived him.(1)
ICEI: elected member 13 April 1898,(2) having been proposed by William Hemingway Mills; council member, 1904-1920, 1922-23; hon. treasurer, 1913-1921, 1922-23; vice-president, 1920-1921; president, 1921-1922.(3)
Addresses: 96 George's Street Upper, Dun Laoghaire, 1898; 4 Haddington Terrace, Dun Laoghaire, <=1907 until death.
Going with pre 1922 - when the police hats still had spikes, there are a lot of candidates from WWI:
http://irishmedals.org/gpage37.html
Commonwealth War Graves are in Dean’s Grange Cemetery Dublin, Ireland. There are 75 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-1918 war and 27 of the 1939-1945 war making a total on 102. A small number of the 1914-1918 war casualties, whose graves cannot be located, are commemorated by Special Memorial headstones.
Kingston mentioned in lots of them.
PM
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What a fascinating thread...I'm not convinced that there is snow though :-\
I'm watching with interest ;D
I wonder if this will throw up any clues as to a date:
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=%22+Funeral+processions%22&type=Subject&view=list
Carol
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Carol,
that link doesn't give any information - sorry.
Re Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire- I asked re that point earlier. The earlier Chas Cook photos that are online (very rarely it seems to be) have the name written on in white ink.
The C Neville Cook have an imprint from a stamp so I would have thought that it could just be changed to the new town name - maybe not :-\
Perhaps local library archives at Dun Laoghaire may be able to inform whether it was necessary that everyone swapped over at the same time.
Also, if the participators in the procession are as we have discussed - I wonder why the civilians/scouts/ other young uniformed and a fire tender with firemen are there but no large military presence. ???
Elsewhere, there is a film of some firemen's funerals but they had a large turnout of firemen in procession -accompanying the hearse etc.
The trouble is we don't know what has already passed by in the procession.
I don't suppose there are any Cook family still around in D L as photographers to tell us when the company ceased trading etc.
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Ooops!....It does now ;D ;D ;D...Yes I think we are anly seeing part of the procession in this shot too.
Carol
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http://www.rmsleinster.com/sinking/sinking.htm
On October 10, 1918 the Mailboat, "The RMS Leinster" sailed out of Dún Laoghaire with 685 people on board. 22 were post office workers sorting the mail, 70 were crew and the vast majority of the passengers were soldiers returning to the battlefields of World War I.
Twelve miles out from Dún Laoghaire Harbour, "The Leinster" was torpedoed and sunk by the German U-boat U-132. 501 people lost their lives and the 184 survivors were rescued by the British destroyer RMS Mallard and RMS Lively and taken ashore in Dún Laoghaire. This was the greatest loss ever of Irish life at sea. More Irish people lost their lives on the "Leinster" than on the Titanic or the Lusitania.
In the days that followed bodies were recovered from the sea. Funerals took place in many parts of Ireland. Some bodies were brought to Britain, Canada and the United States for burial. One hundred and forty four military casualties were buried in Grangegorman Military Cemetery in Dublin.
Officially 501 people died in the sinking, making it both the greatest ever loss of life in the Irish and the highest ever casualty rate on an Irish owned ship. Research to date has revealed the names of 529 casualties.
Another possibility?
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The bobbys, they don't seem to be spaced out quite as neatly as as at Arch Bishop Walsh's but they aren't facing the crowd so does this tell us they aren't looking for trouble, they are there from a respect point of view in a standard position but maybe not been quite as fussy for this event.
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The first question I asked myself about this photo was if it was a single funeral that had attracted a large crowd or multiple burials which would explain the large number of cars in attendance, I settled for the latter
I discovered that there were two tragedies which claimed the lives of many locals, the first being the Christmas Eve Lifeboat disaster in 1895 which saw fifteen local men lose their lives and drew world wide attention and secondly the sinking of the Leinster in 1918.
Pastmagic and a member who contacted me by P M but has not posted here as yet have raised my interest again by mentioning this ship.
Of the 501 persons who lost their lives eleven of them were buried in Deans Grange. Of those one in particular caught my attention: Mrs Frances Saunders. a local woman, in answer to a telegram from her daughter Janet’s doctor was travelling to Holyhead to tend her daughter who was seriously ill.
This was the second time that the cruel sea was to bring heartbreak to the Saunders household as her husband Frank was one of the fifteen drowned 23 years previously on Christmas Eve.
Sadly Janet also lost her fight for life three days later.
So many possibilities still despite the good work here. I have gone through the newspaper archives but without an approximate date it was like searching for the proverbial needle.
Thanks again everyone.
John.
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Might it be a parade to commemorate an anniversary of one of these tragic events?
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Wouldn't the Leinster incident be too early? Fashions in photo look later than 1918... :-\
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Following with interest!
Would one of the hobbling disasters be too late date wise? http://www.dlharbour.ie/content/history/articles/hobblers.php
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The 'London bobby' style police helmets mean it is pre-Garda Síochána.
The Dublin Metropolitan Police wore those helmets but merged with the Gardai in 1925.
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The timing would fit the death of Michael Collins.
Regards
Malky.
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Michael Collins' funeral would have been buzzing with police and army, I'm sure.
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There is a piece of video of Michael Collin's funeral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6QX2paFZxc&feature=related
Rishile
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So many possibilities still despite the good work here. I have gone through the newspaper archives but without an approximate date it was like searching for the proverbial needle.
Thanks again everyone.
John.
Hi John,
Do you think that the local archives may have more photos from C Neville Cook that could help pinpoint the year or the gentlemen heading the procession?
heywood
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Have just watched youtube clip on the Collins funeral. One thing that suddenly dawned on me (and forgive me if this has been touched upon already ) is that in that footage all the civilians in the procession are not wearing their hats. The soldiers are but that would be a point of military etiquette, I take it. Don't know why I didn't notice right away. Surely it is a matter of showing respect to take any hats off for a funeral procession. Most of those present in the 'mystery' photo are donning a wide variety of toppers, bowlers and trilbys etc. That leaves me a bit puzzled to say the least.....
Regards
Doddie
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I don't think Collins' funeral went through Dun Laoghaire.
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I now think that this thread is getting rather long and out of hand - 16 pages and counting! 20 pages is the max we allow to run on Rootschat before starting a new one.
The trouble with a very long thread is that it tends to repeat itself, and good evidence written in it gets overlooked, because there's too much info for everyone to read.
Can I suggest to the original poster (Colur) that a new request be posted on the Photo Restoration and Dating Board, simply asking for a date for the photo - close-up scans of some of the figures in the crowd and the procession will really help with this as I've asked quite a few times already in this thread! Blowing up the version we already have does not give any more detail but just causes pixellation. We need a bigger scan.
Once a date is more firmly established it will hopefully be an easier matter to narrow down whose funeral it may be, rather than just guessing as we are at the moment.
Cheers
Prue
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Fascinating footage of Michael Collins' funeral. I initially thought that the crowd scenes were very similar, however the day is quite sunny in parts and there are girls wearing summer style dresses, l so I think the day is too warm to be the same funeral as posted by the OP.
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Fascinating footage of Michael Collins' funeral. I initially thought that the crowd scenes were very similar, however the day is quite sunny in parts and there are girls wearing summer style dresses, l so I think the day is too warm to be the same funeral as posted by the OP.
It was pointed out on page 3 that Michael Collins was killed in August 1922 and the funeral took place in September. So even if had been a cold day there would have been leaves on the trees.
there is no foliage on the trees, so it cannot be August / September. You are quite right. So it rules out Collin's funeral. :'(
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Dublin Metropolitan Police and the Garda Siochana amalgamated in 1925. Dun Laoghaire would have been policed by DMP. They wore the ''Bobby Helmet ''. Following the amalgamation, perhaps they changed to the present '' soft uniform cap ''.
Maybe this could pinpoint the event as being 1925 or earlier.
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I remember the policeman on duty-on corner of Patrick st and Georges st directing traffic and wearing a helmet similar to the British police helmet around 1950 so I suggest these may have still been in use by some garda for some time after the creation of the free state ann b
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Hi Folks,
This has proven itself to be a fantastic journey for me during the past week. I have learned so much about my old home town that I left over 40 years ago from your replies and indeed questions because each one has opened another door which I was only too eager to enter.
None more so than today when I visited the Garda Museum based in Dublin Castle . On my arrival I was greeted by the curator Gerry who was a mind of information about his charges and particularly of the Dublin Metropolitan Police of which his Grandfather was a member.
The only problem being his knowledge of the force’s history has opened the whole issue of the date of the photo up again. As was pointed out here the Garda Siochana (Guardians of the Peace) was founded in 1922 when this Country gained her independence to replace primarily the Royal Irish Constabulary. A second force, the D M P, were given some autonomy and allowed to continue for three years before having to decide to amalgamate with the new body or disband. In 1925 they agreed to join but on various conditions one being that they be allowed to retain their uniform which included the ‘Bobby’ type helmet. The new Government acceded to this request only on the condition that the hat and button badge be changed to reflect the new force. The uniform agreement only applied to existing members of the Force and all new recruits were issued with the new and very distinct Free State uniform. The Curator decided, if he was to err it would be on the wide side as depending on the age or the recruit on joining prior to 1922 the uniform could easily have been worn up to the 1950’s as pointed out by fia, particularly for ceremonial occasions. He would also rule out (hesitantly) anything from the 19th century because of the style of great coat. So there we have it, a very loose time span between 1900 and 1950 -ish. The fashions have tightened the time span and close ups of clothing as has been requested might reveal that little snippet that will bring this query to a close.
Heywood has suggested yet another line of enquiry for me and I hope to visit the National Photographic Archives in Templebar on Monday in the hope that C Neville Cook’s collection are housed there. And Nailer has agreed with the many on here who felt the photo had to be pre 1925.
This photo is of the Garda Siochana helmet incorporating the Gaelic intertwined lettering of G and S and replaced the badge previously adorning the helmets of the Dublin Metropolitan Police.
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5812/280eb.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/280eb.jpg/)
So now, as suggested by PruM in Reply #159 on page 16 I will repost the photo and ask for it to be ‘dated’ and move forward from there.
Thanks again Folks, excellent work and I hope to see you all over on the new thread
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Hi Folks,
Just to update you on developments regarding this photo.
I was contacted by Jean a member of the Dun Laoghaire Historical Society to say that the photo was well discussed at their February meeting. Although not immediately recognized by anyone they did come to the conclusion that it was NOT a funeral from St Michaels Church. The reason being that the incline between the main entrance on Georges Street and the church doors was too steep so all funerals entered and left through a side gate on the Marine Road which can just be made out to the right of the second tree from the left.
I have also sourced the names of the town officials who died during the ‘30’s but none of their funerals would fit the time period suggested in replies.
I also read that for bigger funerals the only cars allowed in the immediate vicinity of the church would be those to carry the chief mourners, all other vehicles would be parked on Gresham Terrace and would be called out as the procession moved off and that was something that was puzzleing me why the cars etc were coming out from the direction of the Marine Hotel.
Two other very large funerals from St Michaels during the '30's which were attended by politicians etc failed to produce matching photos in the newspaper archives so nothing conclusive.
The Historical Society is meeting again tonight so hopefully .................
John.
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Laid To Rest At Last.
I recently received a second photo of the funeral and it was dated 22nd January 1934 on the back and inscribed ‘Funeral of Canon Murphy’
A search of the newspapers on the 23rd had the Irish Press leading with the article, containing photos which was headed “STATE AND CITY MOURN AGED PASTOR – DUN LAOGHAIRE SILENT AS GREAT CORTEGE PASSES”
and goes on to read ‘Dun Laoghaire was in mourning yesterday for the funeral of the Ven. W. J. Murphy Archdeacon of Glendalough and Parish Priest, St. Michael’s, which took place after 11 o’clock Mass to Glasnevin Cemetery’
Once again I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this topic, without your support and encouragement to continue my search I would never have solved the six year old mystery of this photo.
John
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Well done John. :) Perseverance has paid off. A most interesting topic.
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That's splendid news John.
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Yes, fantastic news, you probably have a smile from 'here to here' or perhaps it only goes from "ear to ear"
Cheers, JM
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A great outcome! :)
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Great outcome John
Hope the rest of our mysteries untangle soon!!
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Nice one John...a good result and thanks for the update.
Carol
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It had to be the 1930s because of the cloche hats and also because of the motor cars; 10 years earlier it would have been a horse-drawn hearse. How interesting that none of the men seem to have removed their hats in respect.
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I missed this earlier - had been following the thread but didn't see the conclusion. So glad that the mystery has been solved!
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I like your avatar even more now I know that it's your own artwork GS. 8)
Carol
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Excellent result John. I've been intrigued by this topic since first reading your original request. It does beg the question - "What are you going to do with all your free time now?" ;D ;D ;D
Tony
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HAHA Tony, you don't know how close to the truth that is. Dusty Springfield's 'I just Don't Know What To Do With Myself' has become my party piece and I even have it as my ringtone ;D
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If it is a funeral I wonder why the male mourners in the cavalcade are not carrying their hats and no man in the crowd is doffing their hats to the departed? All the men have their hats on.
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Hi kwhitts and welcome to Rootschat.
Long before we discovered that it was indeed a funeral that very same issue was raised and the excellent sleuths on here deduced that as the time of year the photo was taken would be mid to late winter because of the bareness of the trees etc. those in attendance would have only been too glad to get themselves ‘covered up’ as soon as the cortège had passed.
Good luck with your research.
John