RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: SPC on Friday 09 September 11 00:42 BST (UK)
-
I have been reading about Edward Theodore Chalmers Werner who is said to have been born in Port Chalmers in 1864. I could not find his birth in BDM NZ. Can anyone assist please?
-
Hi Simon
Can't see it on the BDm online index either (using variants of WERNER). Certainly a surname ripe for mistrancription. ;D
Are you able to check the NZ Births microfiche ?
~ Lu
-
Aah .. wonder if this is Edward ?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Otago Daily Times" - 15 November 1864 - page 4 - Births
.... 12 November, at Port Chalmers, wife of J. WERNER, a son
[Father may have been a "Julius WERNER" ? Will check further for you. ]
~ Lu
-
Is this the chap?
http://www.archive.org/stream/chinachinese00werngoog#page/n8/mode/2up
Wiki says:
E.T.C. Werner (Diplomat and Sinologist)
Edward Theodore Chalmers Werner (1864–1954) was a noted British diplomat in Qing Dynasty China and Sinologist specialising in superstition, myths and magic in China. Werner arrived in Peking in the 1880s attached to the British Legation as a student interpreter and remained in China until 1914. E.T.C. Werner was born at Port Chalmers, Dunedin, New Zealand. His father was Prussian and his mother English. He was educated at Tonbridge School. His father died in 1878 meaning E.T.C. had to find a career. He passed the entrance exams to the Far Eastern Cadetship.
His obit gives his father as Joseph Werner.
http://callisto10.ggimg.com/doc/LT/WrapPDF=contentSet=LT=recordID=0FFO-1954-FEB16-008-F.pdf
-
Thank you both very much. I am embarrassed I didn't check papers past. I will check the fiche this weekend. Pastmagic, that is the same Edward - the death of his adoptive daughter is the subject of a recently released book.
-
Sorry,
We crossed over there - I just added his Obit and that his fathers name was Joseph!
-
He is not listed on Birth microfiche in 1864.
John B
-
... :-[ don't know why I said (father) "Julius" earlier.
The Otago Nominal Roll has this solitary entry >
1865-66
WERNER - Josef
Kaikorai Valley, Roslyn Electorate
------------------------------
Must follow up on E.T.C. -- sounds fascinating. ;)
-
Findmypast has an entry for an 1864 birth at sea of a son to Joseph Werner, so this may account for the missing BDM record. Joseph was a schoolteacher and his wife was Harriet Taylor.
-
Is this a sister ?
NZ BDM
1889/1615 Jane Josephine Werner Andrew Anderson
Presbyterian Archives
WERNER Jane Josephine 46y
ANDERSON Andrew 50y
2 May 1889 Kaikorai
SH
-
Geo, Ferdinand WERNER
listed in Otago Boys High School Centennial Register 1963 as a foundation pupil
attended 1863 - 1864 described as shipbroker, Antwerp Holland died 1892.
SH
-
Mr WERNER elected to Wakari School Committee
source Otago Witness , Issue 549, 7 June 1862, Page 5
Mr Joseph Werner sold land at Auction
SATURDAY, 6th DECEMBER, At 1 o'clock. 50 acres freehold land "Situated in the best part of Kaikorai Valley" Government Road [now Kaikorai Valley Road]
source Otago Daily Times , Issue 301, 6 December 1862, Page 2
SHIPPING. PORT CHALMERS.—Nov. 15.
DEPARTURES
Black Swan, ship, 908 ton, White, for Callan, 10 passengers
PASSENGER LIST, Per Black Swan for Callan: Mr and Mrs Werner and family Mr
Edward Cross
source Otago Daily Times , Issue 907, 16 November 1864, Page 4
Did Joseph sell up and leave before he even got on to the Roll ?
SH
-
Edward Theodore Chalmers Werner
SHIPPING. PORT CHALMERS.—Nov. 15. DEPARTURES
Black Swan, ship, 908 ton, White, for Callan, 10 passengers
PASSENGER LIST, Per Black Swan for Callan: Mr and Mrs Werner and family Mr
Edward Cross
Why would Edward and family have been off to Chile ?
SH
-
Find it difficult to workout where the Black Swan was heading to.....
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ODT18641116.2.5&e=-------10--1----0--
THe Chile ref is to another ship which had arrived - nothing to do with the Black SWan, if I read it aright.
Callan, Cailio? The Black Swan Ariived from London, as per:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~shipstonz/portchalmers1.html Can't find details of the voyage with the Werners.
Bit strange actually: See:
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Bre02Whit-t1-body-d2-d7.html
PM
-
Callao ... the Port of Peru.
A scheduled stop no doubt for the "Black Swan" en route to England ... to replenish food stocks / deliver, uplift, cargo / offload or pick up passengers ...
-
Well Done!
Have just found an obit for him that says he was born in Dunedin on 12th November 1864 - so if they went on that ship, maybe they did not register him. He would have been a couple of days old before the ship sailed. This made it easy to work out a bit more about Joseph:
The Times, Tuesday, Feb 16, 1954; pg. 8
PM
Added later: RG11/918 Tonbridge, where he is said to have been educated in that obit.
He is in the 1881 Census down as son of widowed mother Harriet aged 57 (Inccorect transcription of his initials to S C) Her occ. is given as Annuitant. She is born Clapham Surrey.
Harriet has also two daughters:
Mary Harriet, aged 23, Born Munich Bavaria, British subject. Schoolteacher.
Eva Emma Warner aged 33 Scholmistress born Clifton Somerset.
There is also a lodger, Julia Hutchings, Prof.of Music.
Added later still: RG/9/414
Joseph Harriet and family in 1861:
Joseph Werner 43 Naturalised British Subject born Germany Merchant (?) to the Russian Steam Navigation and Traiding Company.
Harriett Werner 38 as before
Children:
Josaphine 18 Born France (1851 gives Paris)
Eva Werner 14 born Clifton Glos.
Ferdinand G 11 Born Germany (1851 gives Hamburg)
Mary 5 Born Germany
Alice 1 Born France.
Also in house: Address 7 the Grove, Lee Kent.
Marie Fesca 56 Companion born Germany
Jane Taylor 63 mother-in-law born Middlesex
Theresa Beckway 23 Servant born germany
Bertha Bergst 22 ditto
The Russian Steam Navigation and Trading Company of Odessa was one of the biggest joint stock steamship companies in Imperial Russia. It was established in 1856 and ceased to exist in 1918 due to nationalization after the revolution in Russia.
Tonbidge school register:
Werner, Edward Theodore Chalmers. 1874-82. Third and youngest
son of Joseph Werner. 6. 1864. Passed a competitive exami-
nation at London University for a Student Interpretership in
China, Japan, and Siam, 1884. Appointed to H.M. Consular
Service in China. Stationed at Pekin.
Werner, John Eeinhardt. 1874-9. Second son of Joseph Werner.
h. 1862. Formerly an engineer in the Peninsular and Oriental
Company's service. Went out in the Spring of 1886 as an
engineer to the Independent State of the Congo, Africa.
Third son accounted for By S-l in post 10 above!
in 1851 Harriet and children were living in Kensington at No 15 Bedford Place. 2 Servants both English. Harriet has a possible death reg for 1904.Joseph is noted as absent, working in the wine trade in Germany
Photos of ECTW wife and adopted daughter:
http://www.midnightinpeking.com/downloads/cast-of-characters/
probably from the book you mentioned.
Pretty interesting family, all in all!
-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/
has Werner, Joseph, from Mayence as naturalising in 1852.
-
Aah .. wonder if this is Edward ?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Otago Daily Times" - 15 November 1864 - page 4 - Births
.... 12 November, at Port Chalmers, wife of J. WERNER, a son
[Father may have been a "Julius WERNER" ? Will check further for you. ]
~ Lu
The obit I found in the times shows that you are right with this one. I am now wondering if he was registered in NZ on that date, but have no way to check. If he was born in NZ at that time, would he have been a British subject because of his parents? PM
Jorose, could the birthplace of Joseph be Meinz?
-
If he was born in NZ at that time, would he have been a British subject because of his parents? PM
Jorose, could the birthplace of Joseph be Meinz?
In New Zealand we were all British subjects (or aliens) from 6 Feb 1840 until 31 December 1947 and if we were British Subjects normally resident in NZ on 1 January 1948 we became New Zealand Citizens by virtue of the New Zealand Nationality and Citizenship Act 1947.
Children born to naturalised British parents in the British Empire or on a British Ship would be born British and fathers nationality would in most cases take precedence.
Registration of the Birth comes after the Birth and would be evidence of the Citizenship but not incontrovertible. Failure to register would not affect the birthrights (including citizenship) of the child.
SH
-
Thank you for that, useful info! So while some of the children had to be naturalized, Edward did not. Going on the earlier post then, it looks like he was born in Port Chambers, maybe he was registered in some way on the boat, or could he have been born on the boat on the 12th and it didn't sail for a few days? Harriet Taylor is the mother as per censuses above, but Joseph as schoolteacher?
Findmypast has an entry for an 1864 birth at sea of a son to Joseph Werner, so this may account for the missing BDM record. Joseph was a schoolteacher and his wife was Harriet Taylor.
-
It appears Mayence is the French name for Mainz (in Rhineland-Palatinate, it has been occupied by the French a couple times).
Fits with his occupation in the "wine trade" in 1851.
I was looking to see if there was any trace of Joseph's death in the UK, and there is a:
Reinhardt Joseph Werner, d. Dec quarter 1874 Tunbridge district, aged 57
The combination of location and right age is interesting - also here is the details of son John's gravestone which gives both him and his father with the middle name Reinhardt (and confirms his father's origin as Mainz).
http://www.archimedes.free-online.co.uk/ghana.htm
-
Following on from that, loks like Edward was not the only author in the family - John R wrote a book too:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Werner%2C%20John%20Reinhardt
Original has been digitised.
PM
-
It was common for passengers to board and live on a ship for a few days before sailing.
Setting Sail depended on getting as much paying cargo on board as possible and the right wind and tides. The captain would not want to be bothered by whether passengers were all on board - that was their reponsibility
This excerpt illustrates the passenger's position
Otago Witness , Issue 540, 5 Apr 1862, P.3 RESIDENT MAGISTRATE'S COURT, PORT CHALMERS.
Wednesday, 2nd April. (Before T. A. Mansford, Esq., R.M.) CONTRAVENTION OF THE PASSENGERS' ACT. William Murray, master of the ship Genii, at present lying at Port Chalmers, was charged, on the information of Mr. Monson, emigration officer, with a contravention of the 36th section of the Passenger Act, inasmuch as he had failed to supply provisions to passengers on board his vessel.
When asked to plead, Captain Murray said there might have been some fault on his part in this instance, but he would plead Not Guilty, and, in evidence of the charge, Mr. Monson called John Holden, who said that he had taken out a passage by the ship Genii, through Mr. George Lumm, shipping agent at Dunedin. On his ticket it was stated that the ship should sail on or about Friday 28th March. He went on board several days before that, and was on board that day. He received no provisions of any kind all that day. In the absence of the captain, he asked the chief officer if he was to have provisions, and the officer said he had nothing to give, and ultimately told him to go and get provision where he could. On the following day, he received no bread or beef, but got some potatoes for dinner. On Sunday also he received potatoes only. He could not swear whether he did or did not get some beef that day. The passengers spoke to Captain Murray on the subject on Saturday, and in the witness's hearing, he told them they might go to h— ll if they liked." but he subsequently ordered the steward to bring up a bag of potatoes ......[The Captain was fined.]
SH
-
Very intersting - so that is probably how he came to be born both at sea and in Port Chalmbers.
Looks like the Werner girls were were pretty unusual too. I found a reference to Edward being the sister of this Alice.
http://www.poemhunter.com/alice-werner/biography/
Alice Werner was born in Trieste on 26 June 1859. In her youth she lived in New Zealand, Mexico, USA and Europe. She was educated partly in Germany, and later in England, where she attended Newnham College, Cambridge University. Her interest in Africa began with visits to Nyasaland in 1893 and Natal in 1894. In 1899 she taught Afrikaans and Zulu in London. Between 1911-1913 she toured East Africa, where she came into contact with Swahili and other languages of the region. In 1917 she joined the School of Oriental Studies as one of the original members of staff, initially as Lecturer but later as Reader and eventually Professor of Swahili and Bantu languages. She continued in this position until her retirement at the end of the 19291930 session. During this time, she also taught at Oxford and Cambridge, in co-operation with her sister Mary Werner. In 1928, Alice Werner received the degree of Director of Litterature from the University of London. After her retirement in 1930, she received the title of Emeritus Professor from the same University. In 1931 she was awarded the Silver medal of the African Society, of which she was Vice-President. She died on 9 June 1935.
Eldest sister Josephene turns up still in Tunbridge age 38 unmarried, a teacher, lodging in the house of a Mrs.Humprey, widow of independent means, and the widows daughter Kate, a dressmaker,in Wadhurst, Sussex. in 1881.
Sister Eva Emma is ath home with mother Harriet as a schoolteaher in a ladies school in 1881.
Then the trail goes cold.
So far looks like none of Joseph and Harriets children have produced biological children...
PM
-
Such a fascinating family. :)
But there's more ... ;D
Seems the WERNER family were not headed directly for London on the "Black Swan" in November 1864 ...
In 1868 extracts from a (wonderful) letter received from Mr J. WERNER, (telling of his family's "adventures"), were published in a Dunedin (NZ) newspaper.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Otago Daily Times" - 29 July 1968 - The DUNEDIN ... page 4
[About halfway down column ... "The following extracts .." ]
* he talks, amongst other things, of having just left in England, a manuscript of a work, "A year in Mexico during the reign of Maximilian in 1865, with sketches from real life" (by J. WERNER), which he hoped would be published.
Joseph WERNER also mentions ... "I was the man who went in search of a quiet home, to distant New Zealand". ;D
Obviously though, his thirst for adventure, was difficult to quell.
How very brave he and Harriet must have been. :)
~ Lu
-
Hi Lu,
That is terrific! Such an epic journey wit seven kids in tow....imagine having to go to school in Tonbridge after such adventures....no wonder some of the kids spent their adult lives in having more adventures...Just going to have a hunt for that book.
Pm
-
"Otago Witness" - 12 November 1891 - Deaths
WERNER - On 16 August, at Elmins ? .. Gold Coast, West Africa, of pneumonia, John Reinhardt WERNER, Engineer FRGS, son of the late R. J. WERNER of Mainz, Germany and Tonbridge, Kent, in his 29th year :
* This son was born c. 1862 (no sign of regn. of his birth in NZ), so was 2 to 3 years old when his family departed. Curious as to why his death notice was published in NZ ?
[Perhaps it was just a courtesy, to inform old friends ? ]
~ Lu
-
Hi PM
Alas, ... can't see any sign of the "Mexico adventure" book, having been published. :(
[But my "googling" skills ain't that crash hot]. ;D
Did notice though that National Archives (Kew), hold a lot of correspondence relating to John Reinhardt WERNER.
~ Lu
-
The Times, Jun 11, 1935; pg. 14; Issue 47087; col C
Dr. Alice Werner Study Of African Myth And Legend
Category: Obituaries
More heady stuff, to put it mildly......in which it says that Joseph had to give up the adventuring to give his sons an education....but Alice kept right on, going into dangerous teritory....
no sign of Joseph's book either, I'll keep digging...
What a family...i can't believe Eva and Josephine were quietly scholmarming, - Alice according to the obit, started off as a teacher in Truro but threw in the towel early on as she was fascinated by Africa..Pm