RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: calvert on Thursday 08 September 11 09:57 BST (UK)
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hello, general advice please. I have a relative born 1939 that the birth is registered twice, with mums maiden name the same on both. One is registered under her husbands surname and the second under another chaps surname. What would this mean? Mum didnt know who the father was, her husband had left her, child was illegitimate??? Just wondered if these are possible reasons?
thanks
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Do "both fathers" have the same first name, if so it sounds like the father had an alias and the registration was in both his actual name and his alias
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It usually means that the mother probably married the man named as the father after the birth, and the birth was 'legitimised' with the issueing of another birth certificate. The child was probably born whilst the woman was still married to the first husband, but may not necessarily have been living with him.
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thanks for replies, mum had previuosly married Mr AA, on birth entry 1 Mr AA is the surname of the child with mums maiden name as it should be. The same quarter, same place same reference and page etc.. the child is registered again with mum maiden name the same but child surname as BB
I obviously use AA BB as persons are still alive. I hope I have made this clear.
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sorry meant to add mum did marry chap BB but not until some twenty years later,
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I hope I have made this clear.
Nope more confused now ???
Can you do it with some imaginery names
eg was the father on the entries John Walker and John Brown, or was it
Thomas Walker and John Brown ie did they have different first names
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The birth is indexed twice if it is the same quarter, same place same reference and page etc. not registered twice. On the certificate the name and surname of the father, in column 4, will be BB and the name surname of the mother in column 5 will be AA together with her maiden name,so the indexer has indexed the birth under both names. You could confirm this by getting the certificate.
Stan
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Just to add if the surnames of the father and mother were different then they have indexed them both as it would not be clear what surname the child would use.
Stan
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Just to add if the surnames of the father and mother were different then they have indexed them both as it would not be clear what surname the child would use.
Stan
yes that is true i am indexed twice !
under my mmn. anmd my fathers surname although on the birth certificate is says name and surname of child here i am given my fathers surname it then says fathers details and then mothers details here is says my mothers mmn. otherwise known as ............. as my father and my mother are not married. (they still are very much together)
although i do understand that if my parents were to marry this would make me legitimate and ym birth could be reregistered i know this has happened in the case of a boy i know born in 1996 he was registered in his mmn. when she married his father in 1998 he was reregistered at the time of marriage under his fathers surname.
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sorry all, I have confused myself,
ok
lets imagine
Susan Smith married Jack Jones and have 3 children all indexed as Children Jones (mum Smith), they have lived their lives as Jones.
the fourth child in indexed as say: Lisa Jones (mum Smith), but also indexed as Lisa Black (mum Smith).
Lisa Jones and Lisa Black are both indexed with mum smith, same district, volume and page no
regards
mark
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That would normally happen if the mother's surname and the father's surname were different - in your example it would probably mean that Lisa was the child of Susan Jones nee Smith and a Mr Black.
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thanks for this help, so you mean child born maybe by an affair to another chap
mark
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The child takes the mother's surname, if an illegitimate child is born to a woman who is or has been married, then the child's is birth is recorded under the mother's married married name and shows the her maiden name as normal. If the father attends the registration the child can also be recorded under his name, the mother's maiden name is again shown as normal, thus it will show up under both surnames in the index.
A man other then the husband can only be named on the birth certificate if he is presant at registration, so the situation you describe in your original post means that she must have known who the father was.
Jebber
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Jebber i previously said on another thread you can call the child what you like it does not have to have either the mothers or the fathers surname although the mothers name will be denoted in the index on the birth certificates there is a space for name and surname of child
so if i wanted to i could call my child Santa (first name) Claus (surname) i am not Toni* Claus!
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Hi all
Very interesting thread - sorry Toni but I couldn't quite believe your last reply so I was staggered when I found this (obviously relates to what is happening now in 2011)
From the Citizen’s Advice Bureau Website
Naming the child on a birth certificate
The mother of the child can give the child any first and surname she chooses. She may give the child the father’s surname if she wants and she does not need the father’s consent to do this. In Northern Ireland details about a father who is not married to the mother may only be entered in certain circumstances.
A man registered on the birth certificate as the father of the child has no right to insist that the child is given a particular name, for example, his surname.
A married couple can also choose any surname for their child. It does not have to be the name of either of the parents.
Tho’ why any parent would want to give a child a totally unrelated name?? :-\
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its been happening for a while at least 1996
a mother can give the child the fathers surname he doesn't have to be there [at registration] BUT he does have to be there if the parents are unmarried and she / he wants him named on the certificate.
lots of people are called silly names these days
the registrar can decline to name a baby something if he thinks it will cause the baby distress
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thanks for all your wonderful replies, glad you thought it an interesting thread,
so im wondering if there will be two certificates to be purchased one for the indexed birth of Lisa Jones and Lisa Black, (my made up names).
Mum Smith was still married Mr Jones when the child was born, and I know that Mr Black existed cause mum Smith married him many years later.
Q. will there be two birth certs to buy?
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I think if you see what I posted that there will be only one certificate. The birth is indexed twice not registered twice
Stan
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In 1939 there was no surname included in the child's name, only the forenames were recorded. If the mother was Mrs Jones nee Smith, and Mr Black was present at the registration and wanted to be listed as the father, then two possible surnames could apply to the child. Hence two Index entries for the same certificate, as Stan has pointed out.
Colin
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You can also check by seeing what the page number is for the different entries you've found - same page number, the chances are pretty high that it's the same person, indexed twice.
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Hi Colin
I have to ask - if you are saying that everyone born in 1939 did not have a surname included on their birth certificates how are they indexed?! ???
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There is no surname entered in column 2 "Name, if any" only forenames for the child. The Surname of the father is entered in column 4, and the "Name, surname and maiden surname of mather" is entered in column 5. This is standard for all years not just 1939.
Stan
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Hi
Thx Stan for clarifying that - however I now have two further questions!
1. Hypothetically, if I wanted to call my child by another surname other than my maiden name or that of the child's father (let's take Toni's example of "Claus") - how would this be noted on the birth certificate?
2. For indexing purposes if no preferred surname is stated on a bc how are current entries indexed? Father's name/ mother's maiden name/ a.n.other/both?
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Naming the child on a birth certificate
The mother of the child can give the child any first and surname she chooses. She may give the child the father’s surname if she wants and she does not need the father’s consent to do this. In Northern Ireland details about a father who is not married to the mother may only be entered in certain circumstances.
A man registered on the birth certificate as the father of the child has no right to insist that the child is given a particular name, for example, his surname.
A married couple can also choose any surname for their child. It does not have to be the name of either of the parents. http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eyb/
You can see the present registering arrangements at http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eya/
Stan
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this is the up to date version where it has name and surname of child
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Mmmmm ...yes thanks Stan - I do understand about registration of a birth. My question is regards finding a person on an Index register i.e on FreeBMD, Ancestry, FindMyPast etc. How are these people being indexed.
As a volunteer I am constantly helping people in order to obtain bc/mc and dc for their family research. I was hoping that further information on the indexing of names may be helpful.
Thanks
ps Stan see my post #14!
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California Dreamin - i know that after 2005 the indexes are not online i read this last link it says where we can find them but not how they are arranged ::) (although it does say how civil partnerships are arranged in the index)
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/DG_175464
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Mmmmm ...yes thanks Stan - I do understand about registration of a birth. My question is regards finding a person on an Index register i.e on FreeBMD, Ancestry, FindMyPast etc. How are these people being indexed.
You asked 1. Hypothetically, if I wanted to call my child by another surname other than my maiden name or that of the child's father (let's take Toni's example of "Claus") - how would this be noted on the birth certificate? and that is what I answered, but this is a recent development and did not apply before, you could not enter a surname other than that of the father or mother.
Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/1-2/20
Stan
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Yes Stan, thank you but I also followed that question by asking:
2. For indexing purposes if no preferred surname is stated on a bc how are current entries indexed? Father's name/ mother's maiden name/ a.n.other/both?
So I guess you were answering Q1. .. thank you Stan :-*
Thank's Toni for the link - at the bottom of the page there is a PDF regarding Index information that looks like it contains the answers to my query. Ta.
Kind regards all ;)
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i think ill leave you guys to it to discuss further, thanks for your help all. ill buy the cert and let you know the outcome
mark