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Independent Islands => Isle of Man => Topic started by: MattieC on Thursday 08 September 11 08:28 BST (UK)
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Can anybody tell me why I cannot find any evidence of my grandmother's birth on IOM in 1880? In 1881 she was listed on the census as living in Liverpool with her parents Henry and Ruth Church and brother Henry. On the 1911 census I have found her place of birth as Castletown IOM yet there seems to be no record of her and I have enquired of the IOM genealogists. Just a shot in the dark but could she have been adopted?
Any help much appreciated. MattieC ???
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The 1891 and 1901 census returns have her estimated birth year as 1882?
Where did you look for birth details?
P.S. Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
1891 census, Reference RG12, Piece 2929, Folio 96, Page 17
19 Menzies Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Church, Henry Head M 30 Police Constable b London
Church, Ruth Wife F 31 b Newby, Cornwall (surely Newlyn?)
Church, Henry Son M 12 Scholar b Newby, Cornwall
Church, Margaret Daughter F 9 Scholar b Isle of Man
Church, Matilda Daughter F 1 b Liverpool
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1881 census, reference RG11, 5607, 43, 13
Mill Street, Castletown, Malew, Isle of Man
Churcher, Henry Head M 21 Fisherman b England
Churcher, Ruth Wife F 22 b England
Churcher, Henry Son M 2 b England
Roberts, Patience Mother-in-Law F 53 Fishermans Wife b England
Roberts, Margaret K Sister-in-Law F 16 Assistant (Dress) b England
Roberts, Edwin C Brother-in-Law M 15 Tailor Apprentice b England
Roberts, Thomas H Brother-in-Law M 12 Scholar b England
And a possible birth!
1881, Castletown Vol A1, page 51
Clurcher, Margaret
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Thank you so much for your help. Unfortunately I too have found the same details as you and thought that both Ruth and Henry were born in Newlyn. What puzzles me is that having gone on to the Cornish BMD site the evidence of Henry, Ruth and their son Henry seems to overwhelmingly suggest that the surname is Churcher and not Church. I do know that there were a lot of variants etc. in the past and it does look as though this could well be my gt. gt. grandfather. But....... I find that they are all listed as living on the IOM in 1881 and yet they also appear as Church on the same census for England as living in Liverpool.
Henry seems to have made a great leap from fisherman to policeman which I found rather hard to believe as I would not have thought he would have had the education. He may have had a lifelong yearning for the sea and that was the path he took, only settling down to something with better prospects and wage once he was married and had a son and daughter to provide for.
I have posted a photograph of the man I believe to be my gt. gt. grandfather asking for info. as to the uniform and received a reply that suggested it might be a commissionnaire's uniform from Liverpool harbour board. This information has been welcomed as my brother had said he thought somebody in the family was involved in Trinity House, also my father wanted to go to sea and his grandfather said it was too dangerous and prevented him from going.
Henry served in Liverpool City Police for 25 years retiring in 1908 though he is listed as being a policeman in 1881.
Thank you once more and any further ideas or info. will be much appreciated.
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I've just had a quick look at the Lawson micro site - follow the link from the Isle of Man Family History Society website. It has the birth in Castletown listed, but also has the parents:
CLURCHER, Margaret 13 Apr 1881 Castletown 51 CLURCHER, Henry ROBERTS, Ruth
As the birth is in April, this accounts for her not being on the 1881 census, and for her age being estimated a year younger in following censuses. I presume that this couple is the Henry Churcher and Ruth Roberts that marry in Penzance in Dec 1878 (FreeBMD).
Hope this is of help. Have you traced the family backwards by actually sending for the certificates?
catnav
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Hello Mattie,
You say you have Henry and Ruth in 1881 in both Liverpool and Isle of Man. Do you have the 1881 Liverpool details? I can't see them.
regards
heywood
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You seem to have done a lot of searching so not sure what you have.
Do you have these baptism details - Edge Hill St Catherine
23rd January 1884
Hannah Churcher parents Henry (police officer) and Ruth
2nd October 1889
Matilda Massey Churcher Henry (Police Cnstable) and Ruth
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Thank you very much. I too have come across the coincidence of the name Churcher as opposed to Church which ties up with wife Ruth and son Henry both born in Cornwall. Cannot quite make the link with IOM and Liverpool as 1881 according to another post has my grandmother Margaret listed as being on the IOM and yet also with parents Henry, Ruth and sibling Henry living in Liverpool! The coincidence of Henry Churcher being a policeman and married to Ruth is not to be ignored yet I cannot get the link between fisherman, as listed in the marriage records and policeman as listed soon afterwards in 1881 Liverpool. I have never heard of Hannah Churcher whose baptism details appear in Edge Hill St Catherine that is a complete revelation to me. Is the Edge Hill the one in Birmingham?
I have traced many dead ends for Henry Church and Churcher born in Middlesex London around 1858-60 but none of them seem to appear in Liverpool at the right time. I also thought it quite a leap in those days to come from London to Cornwall and found a Post Office sorter who moved from London to Exeter with his son Henry who later also joined the Post Office and moved to Bedminster Bristol.
As you may see I am new to all this so any ideas would be gratefully accepted.
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Cannot quite make the link with IOM and Liverpool as 1881 according to another post has my grandmother Margaret listed as being on the IOM and yet also with parents Henry, Ruth and sibling Henry living in Liverpool!
See reply #1 - Henry, Ruth, Henry, Margaret (age 9) & Matilda are in liverpool in 1891! Not 1881.
Reply #2: In 1881 I found what might be them, as Churcher, in the Isle of Man.
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Hello again,
I think KGarrard has explained the error re 1881 unless you have the information elsewhere.
Edge Hill is an area of Liverpool.
Free BMD
Hannah Churcher
birth 1884 West Derby
death 1887 Toxteth Park
her baptism shows she has the same parents as Matilda Massey
With regard to Henry - he perhaps presumably moved from Cornwall with Ruth's family to I O M and became a fisherman (if he wasn't already one).
Do you have the marriage certificate for his occupation?
I'm not sure why you find it difficult that he changed his occupation.
The only Henry that I can see in 1871who may be him in 1881 is one living in St Pancras with his grandmother. Unfortunately, I can't see granny in earlier censuses.
On his second marriage, Henry gives his father as John Church deceased Seaman.
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Ruth died:
June qtr 1894
Toxteth Park vol 8b, page 176
Church, Ruth age 35
and Henry marries again:
June qtr 1895
Toxteth Park vol 8b, page 386
Church, Henry
Bruce, Elizabeth
so, on 1901 census we have:
Reference RG13, Piece 3431, Folio 109, Page 12
305 Mill Street, Toxteth Park
Church, Henry Head M 41 Police Constable b London
Church, Elizabeth Wife F 37 b Birkenhead
Church, Matilda Daughter F 11 b Liverpool
Church, William H Son M 5 b Liverpool
Church, Albert E Son M 3 b Liverpool
Roberts, Abraham Boarder M 21 Carpenter Labourer b Lfynnongroyw, Wales
Finally, Henry & Ruth's marriage:
December qtr 1878
Penzance district vol 5c, page 449
Churcher, Henry
Roberts, Ruth
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Thank you for your information some of which I already had. I shall have to get a copy of Ruth and Henry's marriage certificate and delve a little deeper into John and "granny".
I have seen on Matilda's mariage certificate her father's occupation as "inspector" and I know that Henry retired from Liverpool police in 1908. I have posted a photograph for possible identification and am wondering if this photo has something to do with an inspector's uniform with a Trinity House connection as my brother said he thought somebody had something to do with Trinity House.
There is also the whereabouts of Henry on the 1911 census as he is not listed and I cannot find him listed on board a, ship or lighthouse, any ideas?
Thank you once again for your help which has proved invaluable.
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We are not allowed to post any 1911 information other than can be seen in indexes.
I can see Elizabeth and her two sons. Have you looked at them to see how she is described?
With regard to his later occupation-you say he retired from the Police Service in 1908.
Was an occupation shown on his death certificate e.g. 'retired ....' ?
If either of the later boys married, there may be an occupation on their certificates.
These comments are more directed to your query re the photo.
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Have just remembered I have Henry and Ruth's marriage certificate and the birth certificate for their son Henry. I know there are a lot of coincidences yet I can't get my head round how a humble fisherman who couldn't write (he signed the certificates with a cross) could possibly have become a policeman. Does that make any sense or am I being a bit picky? I would have thought he would at least had to have been able to write to join the police force even then.
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Yes I agree that there should realistically have been some level of literacy.
What is his father's occupation on his marriage certificate to Ruth?
However, in that intervening time between his marriage and his entering the police he could have had some sort of tuition.
He signs his marriage certificate in 1895.
I know you have said that he retired in the same year as his daughter's marriage - was he an Inspector in the police or was that his new job?
What do you mean by coincidences? Where are your doubts? You should be able to track back through your family- which you seem to have done to arrive at Henry and Ruth.
I think it is the later certificates - his death certificate also perhaps the later boys' marriage certificates and maybe even Elizabeth's status in 1911 which would give you clues to his later life.
Is there no one in the family who remember what he did as a job after the police?
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Thank you again for your prompt response.
Henry's occupation is listed as fisherman and his father, also Henry (rather a lot of them) was listed as sailor, deceased.
I have not applied for his marriage certificate to Elizabeth and maybe I should do, I will follow that up thank you.
No he did not retire in the same year as his daughter's marriage (Matilda) he retired after 25 years service with Liverpool police in 1908. Matilda married 3/9/1911 and her father's occupation was listed as "Inspector".
Matilda reported Henry's death in 1939 and listed his occupation as "retired police constable" so I don't know where this "Inspector" has come from.
I have not traced the boys' marriages but I do know that Elizabeth's status on 1911 census has her at the top of the family, firstly listed as wife then crossed out and "head" entered. I can find no trace of Henry whatsoever though he must still have been alive.
There is nobody left in the family other than me and as I was born when my parents were 41 and 42 they did not speak of their past. My brothers died aged 27 (1958) and 66 (2003). I don't suppose I was all that interested when a teenager so I have to do this the hard way and help from people like yourself and others.
I am grateful for the time you have spent on me and I will not give up as I find it all so fascinating and wish I had spent more time talking to my parents about their past. A timely reminder to all children and parents to start talking about their past lives and not to "pooh pooh" the past as ancient!
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Henry's marriage details to Elizabeth is available online and he gives his father as John. The witnesses are Robert and Mary Cain.
He has given two names for dad on both his marriages.
There is an Annie Cain as a witness for Matilda's marriage in 1911.
Albert E V Church marries in 1925 so he may have given a more up to date occupation for Henry.
Elizabeth Church possibly dies in 1953 so she and Henry may have lived apart as she didn't notify re his death.
That's about it I would say.
regards
heywood