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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: craggus on Thursday 05 May 05 16:20 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Having spent a couple of years researching my family history here in England, I am trying to find out a bit more information about my dads uncle Clifford, who emigrated to Australia. Although I have a few bits and pieces of information about him, I do not know where in Australia he settled.
Clifford Henry Jones (b: 10 Mar 1904, Llangollen, Wales) emigrated to Australia supposedly after getting a young girl into 'trouble'. He married Florence Vera <surname unknown> (b: 7 July 1912) in Australia.... I do not know if Florence was a lady he met in Australia or if she travelled over with him from England.
I am led to believe that they had a number of children together, including (in no particular order): Bryan Henry, Clifford (drowned 26 Jan 1974), Dorothy May, Kathleen, Florence Margaret, Betty (b: 3 Dec 1933), William Seeley (d: 21 Jul 1963 Car crash), Desmond David, Gail, Gay and Dennis John.
Clifford Henry Jones died 7 mar 1952. Florence died 6 Aug 1997.
But where do I go from here? How do I piece any of this together? Trish251 has very kindly sent me a number of Australian links to browse through. She also found a marriage between a Clifford Jones and Florence in VIC 1931 - can anyone access the index details for this marriage?
Basically, any suggestions or information that may be of assistance would be greatfully received, whether it be relating to the marriage, the deaths.. ANYthing!
Kind Regards
Craig :)
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Hi Craig,
As you have Clifford's date of death I am assuming you have his death certificate, so you would know he died in Victoria.
Both sons William and Clifford died in Victoria. Their parents on the indexes are listed as Clifford JONES and Florence Vera GOULD.
There is a birth in the Victorian Indexes For a Florence Vera GOULD born: 1909 Malmsbury Parents: William John GOULD & Johanna Maria BACKMAN reg no: 20747
Have you checked the death notices in the Herald Sun/Age etc. These might give you the daughters married names and any children.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni
Many thanks for the information. Although I had some specific dates (Cliffords death for instance) I do not have copies of ANY of the certificates (other than of Cliffords birth in Wales, Great Britain). Basically the information I have has come from a relative who used to be in contact with another relative, who used to be in contact with ANOTHER relative in Australia! Unfortunately this chain of information was broken some time ago, people lost contact with one another, and I am left trying to piece together the story from scribbled notes on tiny scraps of paper!
Did you find Clifford (father) death in the indexes, or just Clifford (son)? If Clifford (father) was in the indexes, I assume it would also list his parents as well? If these are listed as Walter Henry Jones and Kate Seeley then this is definitely the Clifford who emigrated from England.
I think Trisha251 mentioned that it is possible to download VIC certificates, if these turn out to be my relatives then I will obviously splash out the cash! Was there any sign of a marriage between Clifford ad Florence in the indexes, or do they not cover this period? I had Florence down as being born on 7th July 1912 but as this information has been passed through several people (and over a long period of time) it could well be the case that some of the stuff I have is inaccurate.
You mention death notices in the Herlad Sun/Age.. are these available to view on-line anywhere?
Oooh, I'm excited now!
Many thanks again for taking the trouble to reply to me, much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Craig :)
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The website where you will be able to download certificates is at:
http://www.dvc.vic.gov.au/bdm.htm
Deaths
JONES Clifford Hy, father Clifford Hy, mother Cath SEARLEY, died Heidelberg, age 54, 1952 #3962
Correct year, mother's name close, not quite the father you want, age a bit askew - but death certs so often have errors that this is surely yours?
Victorian death certificates are quite informative and usually list where the deceased was born, how long he had been in Australia, where and when married and name of wife, and names and ages of issue.
Another of the children:
HARKINS Dorothy May, father Jones Cliff, mother Florence GOULD, died Park(ville?), age 38, 1969 #19477
JAP
PS: I don't know of any online archives (other than relatively recent ones dating back to the 1980s) of newspapers such as the Melbourne 'Age', 'Herald', 'Sun' or (defunct) 'Argus'. I have consulted them only at Australian public libraries on microfilm.
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Hi JAP,
Thanks for that. The death of Dorothy May is almost certainly correct (I had scribbled down on a bit of paper that she died ~1970) so it does appear that Florence Vera was a GOULD as suggested by Gennig earlier on. I did not know that Dorothy May married name was HARKINS... in fact I don't know the married names of any of the children.
I think the best thing for me to do now is to sign up to the VIC site and download a few of these certificates. If the death certs contain the information you suggested (how long they had been in Australia etc) then it should be pretty straightforward for me to establish that they are relevant to my tree. Am I right to think that when you have signed up for the site with your credit card details you can browse the indexes for free, and it only costs to download the actual certificates?
Thanks again
Craig :)
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Craig,
Re your question, I really can't remember (browse probably but not look at the results?) - but surely worth signing up and getting Clifford's 1952 death cert which should provide confirmatory information.
And even if you sign up, I feel sure you can depart again without paying anything if you so decide.
JAP
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I think the best thing for me to do now is to sign up to the VIC site and download a few of these certificates. If the death certs contain the information you suggested (how long they had been in Australia etc) then it should be pretty straightforward for me to establish that they are relevant to my tree. Am I right to think that when you have signed up for the site with your credit card details you can browse the indexes for free, and it only costs to download the actual certificates?
Unfortunately you can't browse for free. It costs per search. Just go straight to the download section, put surname and reg no. in and the certificate you want should come up.
Then you pay $17.50AUS to get a copy which you can download and save to your computer.
Cheers
Genni
PS. Iam going to the State Library on Tuesday will check the Newspapers for you.
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Hi again!
Just purchased the marriage and death certificate of Clifford Jones - it's definitely my dads uncle. Thanks for all your help in finding these records :)
The death certificate is of most interest - I wish our certs here in England held as much information! It lists all of Clifford's children (which I already knew) plus their ages at the time of his death (which I didn't know). He was buried on the 9th April 1952 in Alexandra Cemetery. Occupation is given as "Regular Soldier".
Gennig - thanks for your offer to check the newspapers for me. I guess the best bet in the papers might be the deaths of the children William Sealey Jones and Clifford Jones, as neither of these were 'normal' deaths. I can now supply you with their age at death as well, now that I know their ages when father Clifford died:
William Sealey Jones. Died 21st July 1963 (age 24) in a road accident.
Clifford Jones. Died 26th Jan 1974 (age 31) - drowned.
I also believe that Bryan Henry Jones (b: 1936) may also have died in a car crash as well... it appears as though the family were cursed :(
It may be that there are some records of these deaths available on the VIC site but I need to wait until I get paid again before ordering any more certificates!
Thanks once again for all of your help everyone, it really is appreciated.
Craig :)
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He was buried on the 9th April 1952 in Alexandra Cemetery. Occupation is given as "Regular Soldier".
Hi Craig
When you first queried me, I wondered if your man may have been in the services. This is the closest record I can find on the WWII nominal role - the DOB seems wrong, but the other details seem possible.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.asp?ServiceID=A&VeteranID=561608
You can also search the National Archives & apply to have the record scanned and placed online. www.naa.gov.au (follow the search link)
If this is not his record, you can apply via email for his record to be found. They will advise of result and the cost of photocopying records. Browse the "service records" information on the national archives site.
The Australian Cemetery site http://www.ozgenonline.com/aust_cemeteries/vic/index.htm only has a snailmail listing for Alexandra Cemetery, but could be worth a letter.
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for that! I am pretty certain that this is a match - his birth place has been transcribed as THANGOBBEN instead of Llangollen. The date/month of birth are exact (10th march) it's just the year of birth which is 6 years too early (listed as 1898 rather than 1904). Coincidentally Clifford's given age on the death certificate I downloaded yesterday is ALSO incorrect by six years. I am certain that he was born in 1904 as I have a copy of his birth certificate, so it looks as though he either got confused or lied about his age at some point in Australia.
This is really good, all the pieces of the jigsaw are starting to come together now! :)
Craig
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Hi Craig
it seems you have had some amazing finds - especially with the name of Jones! The record on the national archives has not been "examined" (go to the search screen & search for Jones Clifford Florence.) You will need to request that the record be "examined" - you can do this by email - usually takes about 30 days - but apparently they are busy at the moment so may take longer. Once the record is listed as open, you can simply ask online for it to be digitised. This takes another month but you get the complete record which often provides lots of additional information. The NAA army record also has the date of birth as 1898. I thought this may have been to get him into WWI, but there is no oz record for this - could he have served in the British Army in WWI?
Trish
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Yes Trish, I feel I have been very lucky with the information I have been able to find so far. I have just filled in the "Request form for records of Army/RAAF defence service" enquiry form on the National Archives site, so I will now see what they come back to me with... I'm not sure if this is the same as asking or records to be 'examined' or not, I will have to read the FAQ section.
When purchasing the marriage and death certificate for Clifford off the VIC site, I seem to remember that it was possible to perform searches on the indexes for a nominal fee... I may well explore this avenue to try and find out the married names of some of Clifford and Florences daughters. I actually have the names of a handful of Clifford and Florence's grandchildren - I do not know their surnames as their mothers married and are obviously no longer called JONES. However, if I can find out their married names I wonder if I will actually be able to locate any of these children, even obtain an address where I might be able to write to them? I'm getting carried away now, lol! One step at a time... ;)
Craig
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I may well explore this avenue to try and find out the married names of some of Clifford and Florences daughters. I actually have the names of a handful of Clifford and Florence's grandchildren - I do not know their surnames as their mothers married and are obviously no longer called JONES. However, if I can find out their married names I wonder if I will actually be able to locate any of these children, even obtain an address where I might be able to write to them? I'm getting carried away now, lol! One step at a time...
Craig
You won't be able to do this. Marriage records are only online upto 1942. The privacy act in australia prohibits people from accessing records not belonging to themselves.
Wait until I have checked the Newspapers tomorrow. There will also be inquest records for the deaths of the sons.
I will also check electoral roll records when I get a chance.
Cheers
Genni
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You won't be able to do this. Marriage records are only online upto 1942. The privacy act in australia prohibits people from accessing records not belonging to themselves.
I was getting confused after JAP had posted a potential married name for Dorothy May... but of course, this information came from the DEATH indexes, not the marriage indexes.
See? Told you I was getting carried away!
Look forward to hearing anything you might be able to find Genni. Can I once again thank you all for your help so far. :)
Craig
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Hi Craig
The Melbourne newspaper wasn't much help, only gave first names and no surnames.
Can tell you this though Florence was 88 years old when she died at Shepparton Hospital. Service held at St Andrew's Church
The family were listed as follows:-
Dorothy (deceased)
Betty
Bryan and Pam
Florence
William (Buck, Deceased)
Kathleen & Peter
Clifford (deceased)
Desmond & Yvonne
Gail & John
Gay
Dennis & Shirley (deceased)
The following is the website for the Jamieson and District Historical Society,
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jdhs/
Sending and email to them may prove helpful.
The local newspapers of the area may have reports on the family.
Both Clifford & William were buried at Alexandra, after a service at St Andrew's Church.
Clifford's inquest took place on 4th July 1974, he drowned at Lake Eildon on Australia Day 1974 (inquest no. 1974/1293)
William's inquest took place on 27th Sept 1963, his car hit a tree. (inquest no 1963/1633)
I can get copies of these if you want.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni
Thanks very much for taking the trouble to look that up for me. I now have partners names to add to some of the children of Clifford and Florence, which I did not know before.
I would be really interested to see copies of the inquests if you are able to get hold of them? I assume this would involve some expense on your behalf, and obviously I would sort that out with you. I wonder if Clifford drowned while celebrating? :(
I am continually being amazed by the information you are all able to provide me with, especially as this was an avenue of my tree which I thought would remain a dead end - let's face it, a JONES moving to an unknown part of Australia is not the most specific of starting points, is it?! Many thanks (once again) to everyone who has helped me so far.
Craig :)
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Hi,
Just a quick note to thank those people who have helped me with my Australian research so far. What started out as a hopeful posting about my dads uncle who moved to Australia has snowballed into a mass of information. With the help from people on this board I now have his marriage and death certificate, army information, details of his children and grandchildren... even copies of police reports and witness statements about the deaths of a couple of his children who died 'unusually'.
Many thanks to you, your efforts are really appreciated.
Craig :)