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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: tony coleman on Monday 05 September 11 20:59 BST (UK)
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The church cemetery where my great grandparents were buried is now a car park, and the church is now offices, it was called St James, Birch, in Rusholme, Manchester. Would they have been reburied elsewhere and if so how could I find out where ? Thank you , Tony.
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Hi Tony
The church closed in 1981
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Rusholme/StJames.shtml
It's unlikely that they have been moved if a car park has gone over the top.
Maybe contact the Manchester Diocesan offices for clarification
http://www.manchester.anglican.org/contact-us
Dawn
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Hi Tony,
Have you tried contacting the local council as they would have approved the plans for the building and carpark. It may be a long shot but its a shot none the least!
Good Luck
Feeline190
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If the cemetary was cleared then it would have been a discreetly shielded, thouigh majopr operation which would have attracted publicity in the local media, both at the time permission was given, and during the clearance. The Planning Office for the local council involved WILL have the plan available on open access it is a statutory requirement, enquire at the planning office first, though it is possible the detail will have been moved to the local Archives.
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Definitely worth enquiring with Manchester Archives:-
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/libraries/arls
There may be a record of the memorial inscriptions when the gravestones were removed as well as the documents mentioned by Redroger. I also think its unlikely the burials will have been removed and I think that is why they don't put buildings over them and they usually become car parks, childrens play areas or are grassed over ???.
Luzzu
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Looking at Google earth and street view, nothing seems to have been added to the church and still has a very large grassed area.
I would say the bodies are still in place.
You just have to look at what happened to St John's in Longsight - turned into a muslim centre, crushed rubble was used over the graves to make a car park :o so St James got away lightly
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Can't talk about this specific example but I highly doubt they were reburied elsewhere.
For example when they built they dual carriageway through the centre of Rawtenstall they went through one of the graveyards - they dug up what was left and cremated it; re-interring the ashes in a communal vault. In Blackburn they just removed the gravestones at the back of the cathedral and built over part of the graveyard - food for thought when you visit the bus station there! I've been told, I don't know how much truth to is there is, that when one of the churches in the centre of Accrington was pulled down the workmen just dug the graveyard up and destroyed the remains with lime when they were supposed to have re-interred them elsewhere (Homebase Accrington in case anyone wondered).
I'm sure people have more stories. But considering the state of so many graveyards is it any surprise that we don't treat the actual remains of the dead with more respect?
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I seem to remember you asking this question on another forum.I made enquiries at Manchester Local Archives and they said the remains were probably moved to Southern Cemetery
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My great grandparents were buried here and had a very large memorial stone. As far as I am aware they were not reburied anywhere but I will check with my dad as they used to go to the cemetery often.. Gran was actually returned there later than when died as she donated her body to science. My dad was made aware that when the changes were proposed.
Midmum
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Thinking about it more if they were to be reburied it would have been at Southern as we have family there and there would have been an inscription on the stones there. As no such inscription I am assuming they reamain at Rusholme.
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I based my thoughts on what happened to the Quaker burial place in Doncaster in the 1970s. It was cleared and the bodies re-interred in Doncaster borough cemetary. It was never built on and is now part of the station car park . The latest burial there was around 1930.
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The only cemetery removal I know of was the Wesleyan Cemetery in Cheetham Hill.
http://menmedia.co.uk/northeastmanchesteradvertiser/news/s/1043939_work_starts_at_last_on_new_centre
Even Victoria Station in Manchester is partly built on a cemetery "Walkers Croft" no bodies were ever removed - so don't get scared at night when you are stood all alone on the tram platform. ;D
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T here was little respect shown to the graves of babies at Philip`s Park cemetery, when the road was being widened prior to the sports ground being built. The little graves lay just under the wall fronting the roadside. Families were promised that there would be individual disinterments but sadly this was done by bulldozer -and all the remains buried in one mass grave mound with one communal stone.
The distance involved seemed so little you wonder they could not have been left in place.
Viktoria.
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A mass grave is the norm for re-interrments, and providing it is sensitively done I am quite happy with it. What I am not so happy with as an amateur archaeologist is the lack of forethought which went into the extension of St. Pancras station London for the European connection known as High Speed 1, when the graveyard known to be to the north of the station, it was disturbed when the original station was built in the 1860s, was completely ignored even though there was an archaeolgical team assigned to the entire project. I think someone hadn't done their homework.
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Mancsman's comment about Victoria Station and Walkers Croft cemetery interests me as I have an ancestor buried there and was aware that bodies were not re-interred when the railway was built. Many years ago I used Victoria for the daily commute however I have not been there for a long time. Can anyone tell me if any kind of plaque or marker exists to show where the burial ground was? I have to say I would be surprised if there was any memorial but it would be nice if there were. Yes I have to admit to being nervous if I am ever alone on a station platform at night; but it's not the dead I'm afraid of!
Chirp
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There was an article that I came across whilst doing a search for "Walker's Croft" recently. The article and photo's from "Network Rail" is below
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/STATION-PLAQUE-MARKS-FORMER-PAUPERS-GRAVE-170e/SearchCategoryID-5.aspx
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Thank you so much for that Footo. I am pleased to see that there is a plaque and will a make a point of seeing it next time I am in Manchester. I am a bit puzzled by the date of closure though - 1832. I thought the graveyard was closed at the end of the 1840s. My ancestor was buried there in 1847 and building work on the railway commenced a year later. More research I think ......
Chirp
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Extract from ebook re:burials at Walkers Croft - this will explain all
Walkers Croft
By now, Manchester was expanding at an unprecedented pace. The growth of the cotton
trade sucked in workers and their families from miles around. Poor diet and housing
conditions took their toll and the large population and high death-rate, particularly of
infants, made the provision of a large new burial ground imperative. The Wardens of the
Collegiate Church found the answer in 1816 in a plot of land on the far side of the River
Irk called Walkers Croft. Walkers Croft had, in earlier centuries, been the location of
works for the fulling of woollen cloth, a process known as ‘walking’ and as such the
origin of the surname Walker. By the 19th century, however, the land appears to have
been in use as agricultural smallholdings. The rectangular plot was purchased and
enclosed and a small mortuary chapel erected at its centre. The plot lay conveniently
alongside the Manchester Workhouse, which would be the source of many of its future
occupants, and, indeed, there was a gate from the workhouse yard directly into the burial
ground.
Walkers Croft served as the parish burial ground for the next three decades during
which the registers record around 40,000 burials. It was not, however, exhaustion of
capacity which led to its final closure, but the transport revolution. The new Manchester
to Leeds Railway was to run into the new Victoria Station, which had been built partly
on former workhouse land. To bring the line into the station required it to cross Walkers
Croft. Following a Parliamentary enquiry and appropriate legislation, the plot was sold
to the railway company in 1836 for some £13,000. The tracks were laid across the
northern edge of the graveyard without the need to disturb the existing graves and the
extent of the incursion can be clearly seen by comparing maps drawn immediately before
and after the event. Despite the sale, burials continued in the remaining portion for a
further 12 years until the final interment took place in 1848. Some time later, the station
was extended across the remainder of the site, again without removing the remains. The
present Metrolink platform lies directly over the old graveyard.
Manchester Genealogist Volume 44, No 1, 2008
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Many thanks for that and yes it does indeed explain my query about the dates. I have long known that my 4x great grandfather is somewhere underneath the metrolink platform along with his infant granddaughter. He was one of the workhouse deaths.
Chirp
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Chirp
In the Book "Below Manchester - going deeper under the city" by Keith Warrender.
It shows 2 photos of steps leading up to the blocked off Walkers Cemetery from Victoria Station.
I would just love to have a noise around down there.
Ken
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Many thanks - I will try and get hold of a copy. I believe this author has written other books about underground Manchester - it's a fascinating topic. I too would love to have a little look around beneath the city streets (and stations).
Chirp
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Yes he wrote another book called Underground Manchester both are fantastic reads
If you live or can get to Manchester I would 100% suggest you meet Flecky Bennett and go on the Ratacombs walk
in part of the underground canal system used during ww2 as air raid shelters.
http://www.manchesterghostwalk.co.uk/extra_performances_and_specials.html
You can also find him as Ian Waring on Face B**k
This is another place I would like to get to - but the council will not allow for some reason, so people break in ;D
http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=14633
Ken
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Thanks Ken I really enjoyed reading all this. I am not sure that Flecky's walk is one for me - I am only really interested in historical facts and in any case I can't stand to be in total darkness!! The photos on the other site were fascinating - a pity these tunnels are no longer accessible to the public.
Chirp
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Sorry to the original poster Tony Coleman we seem to have hijacked the thread ;)
Fleckys ratacomb walk is a bit misleading - but it is the only tour of underground Manchester I know of and it has nothing to do with rats or ghosts ;D
You get to go below the Central Train Station into the drained canal system, it was drained during during ww2 as an air raid shelter but more like a mini town below ground which in most parts is still there.
Ken
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That certainly sounds a lot more interesting Ken!
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Saw my Dad today and remembered to ask! The memorials were removed when the building was put up and they were supposed to have been laid to the side but when he went a few years later they were not in sight. No bodies were removed, my Gt Gran was still alive at this time and had wanted to be interred with her husband and young son but sadly this wasn't possible due to closure. Instead she donated her body to science and afterwards her remains were cremated and placed elsewhere.
Love the underground pics by the way. The old part of Hope Hospital is shortly to be demolished and they have refused to let anyone explore the basements etc beneath it - sad really as there will never be an opportunity to do so again. The Indian whose body went missing could be there for all we know .........
Midmum :)
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Can I butt in here?
Are the burials in the Wesleyan Cemetery in the M/c Burials on line site?
Kooky
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They aren't on the Manchester City Council Online Burials but are on FindMyPast as part of the Manchester Collection but you need a subscription:-
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/parish-records/manchester-burials
Luzzu :)
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Thanks Luzzu!
Kooky
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I 've read this thread with great interest. The walk sounds fascinating. Have n't been to manchester for a few years.. In respect to cemetries when they decide to remove remains, I live in some flats opposite where there were more flats built oposite where i live. The graves were dug up and remains cremated and there is a plque in the local parish church graveyard to say that is the case. Well i knew what was happening and there is supposed to to be screens so high that you don't notice on a double decker bus or so i am told. I got up one morning (i'm a a top floor 3 storey block) looked over and saw a pile of teak type coffins, also black plastic bags. I wonder how many know about it now, some are rented and some are bought flats.