RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: RedMystic on Monday 05 September 11 16:10 BST (UK)
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Good morning to all the RootsChatters.
I've done a search on RootsChat to see if there was anyone researching the Kinch surname. There isn't much. (It's always a possibility that I'm doing the search incorrectly.)
I'm curious about the Kinch family and origin of the name before it came to Canada in the early 1800s. I've found the doc in the attached link that outlines the family after it came to Canada. My great grandfather Kinch & his children are included in this.
http://www.islandregister.com/kinch.html
I also have come across a July 1980 informal family document that indicates:
The Kinch name is of Gaelic origin being the Manx form of MacAonghuis originating in the Isle of Man. It may be of longer standing in Ireland, but the first Irish mention of it is to a soldier in the arm of 1644. Subsequent references are mostly to people in Counties of Wexford and Wicklow.
So, should I be starting with resources in Wexford & Wicklow to track the name? Also, what could be meant by the reference to Manx origins and the Isle of Man?
Thanks in advance for any direction that can be provided or insight shared.
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According to "The Oxford Names Companion" McInch, McKinch, McHinch are some of the variations of the name McGuinness, (Irish) which is an Anglicized form of the Gaelic MagAonghuis, a patronymic from the given name Aonghus.
Stan
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One Donold Kynyshe was recorded in "The Manx Notebook" in 1601. On June 17th 1654, John Kinch and Alce Sandifor were married at St. Michan's, Dublin;
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Kinch
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This is the distribution of Kinch in the 1881 Census. England Wales & Scotland
Stan
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Re WILLIAM Kinch 1801 supposedly the Son of Lawrence;
Willm KINCH, Christening, 07 June 1801, Inch by Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
Parents JOHN Kinch and JANE
(Source IGI Extracted)
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TX very much for your help Trish & Stanmapstone.
Stanmapstone, does your 1881 post of the distribution of those with the Kinch surname mean that most of the Kinches were gone from Ireland by 1881? Notes from the 1980 family document indicate that Kinch, found mainly in Wexford & Wicklow, were not numerous. (I'm guessing that my Kinches came to Canada between 1830 & 1850; potato famine perhaps?)
Trish, I appreciated the Isle of Man link. The same 1980 family doc I referenced indicates that the Kinches were military officer of commissioned rank, and that this is apparently proved out by heraldry that depicts a profile of a lion holding a buckle in its front paw. (I know nothing about heraldry.)
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TX very much for your help Trish & Stanmapstone.
Stanmapstone, does your 1881 post of the distribution of those with the Kinch surname mean that most of the Kinches were gone from Ireland by 1881?
Ireland is not included.
Stan
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TX for the follow-up Stanmapstone. :)
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I just wondered what you made of the info I posted.
It looks to me that WILLIAM Kinch was not a Child of Lawrence and his first Wife (if indeed she existed at all)
It may be that William was a younger Brother or Cousin of Lawrence.
Also if Lawrence was born c 1786 she would only be 15/16 when John was born.
Trish :)
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Kinch does not appear in the list of Manx (Isle of Man) Family Names
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/manxnb/nindex.htm
Stan
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I just wondered what you made of the info I posted.
It looks to me that WILLIAM Kinch was not a Child of Lawrence and his first Wife (if indeed she existed at all)
It may be that William was a younger Brother or Cousin of Lawrence.
Also if Lawrence was born c 1786 she would only be 15/16 when John was born.
Trish :)
Hi Trish,
I'm not sure what to make of William Kinch. On the up-side, I've been in-touch with one of the creators of the info in the link I posted in my first entry on this thread. He sent a response through the night & has suggested that there have been a number of corrections/additions when it comes to individuals that are identified in the info (that version is yr 2000). As I understand it, he will be providing me with an update - hopefully in the next few days - & hopefully I'll be able to comment more after that.
He has informed me that he thinks the family came from Ireland in 1818 - though that is unconfirmed by any formal records.
Kinch does not appear in the list of Manx (Isle of Man) Family Names
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/manxnb/nindex.htm
Stan
That is a very interesting find Stan as the Isle of Man lead was one of the few consistent leads I've had when it comes to the name's origins. The maker of the family history link has no info beyond what I have provided in this thread when it comes to origin of the family, including the reference to Isle of Man.
Where to from here, I wonder? ??? ;D
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Mmmm,
If you search KINCH 1780-1800 on Familysearch.Org and put in no Country there are 894 results. Places are Essex, Hampshire, berkshire, Norfolk etc and even Denmark ++ a few Irish Records and Deaths of Kinch's born Ireland living in Ontario, Canada.
1700-1710 there are 146 Records.
Quite a mystery ::)
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That is interesting Trish. The fellow who made the family history link seems confident in the Inch by Gorey location you found for William, so that may narrow things to the Irish locations.
When you did the search for Kinch (many TX for that BTW), I don't suppose the system automatically factors in the naming alternatives like the Kynyshe spelling you posted earlier, or Stan's Oxford Names Companion alternatives?
Those may open more doors, but also complicate the matter of tracing the name's origins significantly don't they? ::)
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My grandmother was a Kinch. The furthest I have traced my Kinches back to is the Buckinghamshire/Oxfordshire borders - no hint of any Irish/Manx connection but I haven't been able to trace back beyond about 1780 (if I am remembering correctly off the top of my head). I didn't come across many other Kinch families in the area as I was researching.
I'm not sure if there is more than one point of origin of this surname - I had read somewhere that it was a variant of King.
I haven't read all of this thread as I am pretty tired from work but if you want any more details of my Kinches then please let me know. Or if anyone wants to see if my Kinches go back to Ireland/Isle of Man they are welcome but I think records for the parish of Mixbury Oxon (where my Kinch trail led) are not online and I have not had chance to visit any record offices in Oxfordshire to check out Kinch baptisms for that parish.
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There are 32 references to Kinch in "British History Online"
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx?query=kinch
In the National Archives there is a document dated April 4th 1345 which mentions a Henry Kinch, of East Wretham, Norkolk. C 241/119/70
Stan
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Hello, RM,
Hope you had a good trip to Scotland.
These may be relevant:
From 'Brian J Cantwells Memorials of the Dead'
(Wexford)
Ballymore cemetery
Mrs Mary Roberts, Milltown, died 16/9/1848 (79)
her daughter- Mrs Frances Kinch, Milltown, 14/7/1868 (78)
grand-son- Matthew Kinch, Milltown,5/10/1873 (66)
Holyfort cemetery;
Abegail Kinch; 26/9/1957
her sister- Susan Whittney; 9/8/1957
her brother- Harry Whittney; 10/3/1918
Inch cemetery;
erected by Matthew Kinch, Ballyellen for
son-John Kinch; 24/8/1884 (9)
---
erected by John Kinch; Coolgranley for
wife-Jane; 29/10/1834 (65)
above John; 18/1/1847 (75)
Kilcavan cemetery;
erected by Edward Kinch for
son-Peter Kinch; 11/3/1896 (28)
Elizabeth Kinch; 9/6/1807 (75)
Transcribed some years ago, so may not still be standing.
This one looks as if it might tie in with your family?
No.23
Erected | by | THOMAS KINCH | Ballyellen, Inch | in memory of his beloved wife |
ELIZABETH MARY KINCH | who fell asleep 18th March 1927 | aged 68 years | also
his son MATTHEW KINCH | died in Alberta, Canada 18th March 1932 | "Blessed are
the pure in heart | for they shall see God" | and the above THOMAS KINCH | died
3rd April 1934.
See: http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/wexford/photos/tombstones/headstones/inch.txt
There are two more, but this one mentions Canada.
IGI:
17. ELIZA KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 17 NOV 1822 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
18. ELIZA JANE KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 05 AUG 1849 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
19. WILLM KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 29 MAY 1785 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
20. WILLM KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 JUN 1801 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
21. WM KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JAN 1823 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
22. WILLIAM ROBERT KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 MAY 1863 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
24. THOMAS KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 NOV 1737 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
25. THOS KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 DEC 1803 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
26. THOMAS KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 APR 1814 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
27. THOMAS KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 01 NOV 1820 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
28. THOMAS KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 MAY 1854 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
29. CATHERINE KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 30 SEP 1864 0725, Newtownbarry, Wexford, Ireland
30. REBECCA KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 11 APR 1814 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
31. SARAH ANNE KINCH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 12 SEP 1852 Inch By Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
PM
PS - see also:
http://www.myfamily.com/group/128153829
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TXs for popping in Hazel. I hope you caught up on your sleep.
Kinch does seem to be fairly well represented in England. While I'm interested in connecting the relatives, I'm also trying to get a sense of the social fabric / history from which the family may have evolved.
I hadn't heard about the King variant before. TX for that. It's another avenue to explore.
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Hi Stan
You are a master at finding the lists that might contain interesting info about names. My thanks. :) Looks like we're back in England, rather than Ireland.
1345 - wow, now that's reaching back. Given a finding like this (and those of Hazel & Trish), it may be that I should be thinking that perhaps there was a time when the Kinchs moved from England to Ireland. Was that a possible resettlement pattern at any time in the last 800 years? ??? ;D
Hmmmm.
Thanks again for stimulating another avenue of thought.
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One Donold Kynyshe was recorded in "The Manx Notebook" in 1601.
More likely to be a variant spelling of Kinnish - which IS Manx!
Having lived on the IoM for some years, and now married to a Manxie, I have never heard of the name Kinch in relation to the Isle of Man.
Doesn't mean there isn't a link! I''m not infallible! ;D
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Many thanks Pastmagic.
Scotland was a blast. We were there 3 weeks, & mostly stuck to the Uists in the Outer Hebrides & then west to Aberdeenshire. We did take time to be tourists, but mostly had a blast connecting the dots in our family history (& meeting family that hadn't connected for 5 generations). Yes, I'm truly addicted now. ;)
Thank you very much for your cemetery research. I'll take some time later today to go through that to get a handle on it. The comments around those that came to Alberta are particularly intriguing. Several of the brothers among my g grandfather's siblings came west with 3 ending up in Alberta. His parents (my gg granparents) came as far west as Saskatchewan, started to homestead & then went back to PEI when my gg grandfather became ill. Several of the siblings of my g grandfather stayed in PEI & a number went to the US. (Family lore is that one of the branches headed for Barbados - now I'd like to track that one down & use it as an excuse for a family history research trip. ;) ;D)
The Kinchs have been in Canada such a long time (since about 1817-1818 apparently), that I didn't hold out much hope of making any family connections in Ireland. Now ... you've provided leads galore! :) :) :) :)
The origins of the Kinch name itself is getting increasingly curious, as you'll no doubt pick up from the posts made by Stan, Trish & Hazel.
Looks like I'll have many enjoyable hours puzzling this through.
Thanks again.
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One Donold Kynyshe was recorded in "The Manx Notebook" in 1601.
More likely to be a variant spelling of Kinnish - which IS Manx!
Having lived on the IoM for some years, and now married to a Manxie, I have never heard of the name Kinch in relation to the Isle of Man.
Doesn't mean there isn't a link! I''m not infallible! ;D
TX KGarrad.
The plot thickens - or thins as the case may be. It's interesting how a general surname search returns the Isle of Man info, but you wonderful Chatters can't make any identifiable connections. Fascinating - & proves out the need to check, double check & verify where ever possible! ;D ;D ;D
TX again for your insight.
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Have sent you a PM about Kinch in Ireland - They did not die out;
The table below shows the number of Kinch households in each county in the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64.
Derry 1 Dublin 2
Dublin city 1 Offaly 3
Tyrone 1 Wexford 4
Wicklow 14
SURNAME DICTIONARY/ SLOINNTE NA h-EIREANN:
Kinch Quite numerous: E Leinster etc. Ir. Mac Aonghuis. A Manx version of MacGuinness, q.v.
Now back to the name in England:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=7028354&j=1
Has Date: 1272 - 1307
a Conveyance by Robert son of Walter the smith (fabri) of Adelmenston, to William the abbot, and the convent, of Pershore, for seven years, of all the land in Aldermonston and Goldicote which he had of the gift and sale of Juliana daughter of Henry . . . yn of Aldermonston ; reserving to the grantor a messuage and curtilage and certain land of which part lies ' atte W . . . ,' part in Cnaveslade, part upon Cou . . . lle, and part upon Sta . . . ; paying a rent of money and grain. Witnesses :- Peter le Kinch of Goldicote, and others (named) : [ Worc. ]
There are actually 325 documents listed for Kinch, but this seems to be the oldest.
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Oh joy Pastmagic! :) :) :)
Must walk the dog, then come back to luxuriate in all this. I can't part (even for a few minutes) without adding ....
... gift and sale of Juliana daughter of Henry ??? ::) ::)
He sold his daughter - surely a trade in terms of dowry or something similar?
Those were the days. ::);D
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I know, I am still laughing! (Only allowed because its so long ago) Wonder how Juliana felt about it!) :) :) :) :)
It may mean that Juliana had the "gift and sale" of some asset or other, rather than she was wrapped up and handed over as a job lot!
PM
The Manx reference seems to originate with Mac Lysaght author of - Surnames of Ireland. Probably copied on by other sources. He was usually very accurate, and his book is used as the Irish Bible of surnames. I don't have a copy, alas, to see if there is a reason noted.
( He was appointed Chief Herald of Ireland in 1943 and served in this post until 1954. MacLysaght served as Keeper of Manuscripts at the National Library of Ireland from 1948 to 1954 and was Chairman of the Irish Manuscripts Commission from 1956 to 1973.)
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The Manx reference seems to originate with Mac Lysaght author of - Surnames of Ireland. Probably copied on by other sources. He was usually very accurate, and his book is used as the Irish Bible of surnames. I don't have a copy, alas, to see if there is a reason noted.
TX again Pastmagic.
I've looked at the family letter I have dated July 1980. As you've noted, it too indicates the source as The Surnames of Ireland, Edward Mac Lysaght, Irish University Press, Shannon, Ireland, 1969.
It also references Supplement to Irish Names by Edward Mac Lysaght, Helicon Ltd., Dublin, 1964.
Neither explanations in the letter have any additional detail other than to mention the Manx form of Mac Aonghuis.
I'm waiting for a call back from the local library to see if they can source one or both publications for me. Here's to hoping, when it comes to the Manx reference, that there is a reason noted for the comment.
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Goodness gracious. Here is something I found in the Summerside Pioneer (Prince Edward Island) re origin of the Kinch surname - keeping in mind that my Kinch relatives were Catholic who left Ireland in 1818 & settled in PEI.
This is a new curve. Unfortunately, the comment I bolded below is not footnoted. Does it cause any new thoughts or conjecture?
Herein lies the problem today of the conflict between Roman Catholics and Protestants, deeply rooted in history. Moreover, since Catholics were not permitted to own land, as well as to practice their religion, records were seldom if at all kept by them, thus making it difficult even today for our Irish people to trace their ancestry in Ireland. It was not until 1830 that the Penal Laws were rescinded, permitting Catholics to exercise their civil rights, including the right to vote and to hold public office.
Ireland was considered a safe haven for Roman Catholics who fled Continental Europe to escape from religious persecution originating from Martin Luther's Reformation in sixteenth century Germany. Luther was a break-away Augustinian Roman Catholic monk prior to this. With reference for example to the Kinch people who settled at Tignish, it is said that they were known as Von Kinch in Germany. They fled Germany because of religious persecution and emigrated to Ireland, dropping the prefix "Von" meaning "son of" from their name when they settled in Ireland.
http://www.islandregister.com/tignish_history.html
Note added: This same article refers to the July 1980 letter that I referenced in my first post & subsequently. It has recently come into my possession.
There was a Father Edwin Kinch, O.S.M. stationed at Emanuel Cathedral in South Africe in 1980 who, however, reported evidence which seems to contradict the German origin story. During a visit to Ireland he found that "Kinch" is the Isle of Man version of MacAonghouis or MacGuiness and is found mostly in the counties of Wicklow and Wexford. He also discovered that the Kinch coat of arms indicates they were military, which might be part of the basis of the deserter story.
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Pastmagic, TX very much for sending the PM with the link to TheShipsList transcription re: preparation for the 1818 sailing. That is great background on the transit. :)
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Pity the footnote is sadly lacking!
There was a German settlement - http://www.irishpalatines.org/index.html
but I have never heard of a Von Kinch associated with it.
General plantation info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
Plenty of ways for your Kinchs to arrive here if they were of the Scots variety or if they were English Kinches!
I am wondering how the author got the information that your Kinch ancestor came from Inch on Gorey - if we can establish that, its pretty simple down to the present, if the ones there today are related to your Lawerence. They have been on the same place in Inch since 1854 anyway - I checked. I will root around for early Irish Kinch families to see what turns up. There was one called Henry who was murdered by the rebels in 1798 in Gorey, and one in Dublin who was put on trial for helping a murderer - not connected incidents.
PM
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Hi
According to our research they emerged in County Down - They were directly descended from Saran, King of Dalriada, through Eochaidh Combh, Lord of Iveagh and scions of the McGuinness Clann in County Down. A branch of this family called themselves Kinch or McInesh and acquired territories on the Isle of Man becoming a truly Manx family. However in the 17th and 18th century some of the family migrated back to Ireland and settle in Wicklow and Wexford.
Hope this helps!
All the best
Wendy
Hall of Names
www.hallofnames.org.uk
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There's quite a lot of German surnames in the UK from a few centuries ago when the lands of Hanover (part of Germany) were given to King James of Scotland as a dowry on the marriage of his grand daughter Sophie to a German Duke. This land became The Kingdom of Hanover and was ruled over by the British monarchy until Queen Victoria came to the throne - this was because Hannoverian law stipulated a man had to rule.
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A branch of this family called themselves Kinch or McInesh and acquired territories on the Isle of Man becoming a truly Manx family. However in the 17th and 18th century some of the family migrated back to Ireland and settle in Wicklow and Wexford.
The standard references on Manx surnames - A.W. Moore "Surnames and Placenames of the Isle of Man" 1890/1906 and J.J. Kneen "The Personal Names of the Isle of Man" 1927 - don't mention ANY form of Kinch/Cinch!
On matters Manx, I think I prefer to trust the researches of a Manxman! ;D ;D
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Thank you Hall of Names. That is fascinating.
I had to Google Saran, King of the Dal Airaidhe to get a timeframe & find out a bit more about. If this is the case, then Kinch would be solidly Irish, dating back to 357ish.
Would these two references, one for "king" & one for "chief" be one & the same fellow?
Saran, King of Ulster:
Saran was second son of Caelbadh and was actually King of Ulster for 26 years before he was ousted (357?) by the three brothers known as the Three Collas. The Three Collas conquered Ulster, burnt and destroyed the regal city of Emania and transplanted the natives to Dal Airaidhe and Iveagh. Saran was the last king of Ulster of the Irian line.
Saran, Chief of the Dal Airaidhe:
Saran was Chief of the Dal Airaidhe during the time of Saint Patrick. He was seemingly known as a blood thirsty warrior who terrorised the kingdom of Dal Airaidhe killing and enslaving many people and saying wicked things about St.Patrick. Olcan, with a monastery at Armoy, bargained with Saran to save lives and agreed to baptise Saran. This infuriated St Patrick (who obviously didn't have a sense of humour) that Olcan would baptise such a wicked man who was without remorse and he "prophesied that day that Olcan’s monastery would drown in blood, lose its honour, and be destroyed three times. Eerily, the Irish historical annals record that the Armoy monastery was indeed raided by a King of Dalriada, later by Cucuaran, and finally by Eochaid, who burned it down, leaving only the stump of its round tower."
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A branch of this family called themselves Kinch or McInesh and acquired territories on the Isle of Man becoming a truly Manx family. However in the 17th and 18th century some of the family migrated back to Ireland and settle in Wicklow and Wexford.
The standard references on Manx surnames - A.W. Moore "Surnames and Placenames of the Isle of Man" 1890/1906 and J.J. Kneen "The Personal Names of the Isle of Man" 1927 - don't mention ANY form of Kinch/Cinch!
On matters Manx, I think I prefer to trust the researches of a Manxman! ;D ;D
It does seem odd, KGarrad, that there seems to be no mention of them as Manxmen in your Isle of Man records. ??? ;D
I didn't know what a stew I'd open by asking this question. It is really quite amazing, & I'm enjoying it thoroughly.
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I am wondering how the author got the information that your Kinch ancestor came from Inch on Gorey - if we can establish that, its pretty simple down to the present, if the ones there today are related to your Lawrence. They have been on the same place in Inch since 1854 anyway - I checked. I will root around for early Irish Kinch families to see what turns up. There was one called Henry who was murdered by the rebels in 1798 in Gorey, and one in Dublin who was put on trial for helping a murderer - not connected incidents.
PM
Hi Pastmagic,
I sent this query off to the maker of the family tree (posted in the opening of this thread) about 15 hours ago - that would have been through the night for him. I've not yet heard back, but he does seem friendly so I wait hopefully for a response. ;)
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Hi Trish
The poster of the Kinch tree did respond on the question of William being a brother/cousin to Lawrence or a son. He has no proof, but is now leaning towards brother.
Re WILLIAM Kinch 1801 supposedly the Son of Lawrence;
William KINCH, Christening, 07 June 1801, Inch by Gorey, Wexford, Ireland
Parents JOHN Kinch and JANE
(Source IGI Extracted)
I also queried parents of Lawrence. He doesn't have anything to fill in that blank. If William & Lawrence are brothers, however, then perhaps the info in the Christening transcription provides a wee hint on parentage.
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It does seem odd, KGarrad, that there seems to be no mention of them as Manxmen in your Isle of Man records. ??? ;D
Whoa! Hang on!! they aren't MY records!! ;D ;D :o
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It does seem odd, KGarrad, that there seems to be no mention of them as Manxmen in your Isle of Man records. ??? ;D
Whoa! Hang on!! they aren't MY records!! ;D ;D :o
I meant it figuratively only - you being on the Isle of Man. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I am just dipping in quickly to say that I am still interested in this thread but I am too tired to process it all at the moment. (I'm a teacher and it is first week back and my brain is spinning). I will have a good read through at the weekend and will take a look through my Kinch stuff and see if I have anything useful to post.
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Hi Hazel
TX for all you do as an educator. It's a very important role & one I hold in very high esteem.
TX also for your interest. Get some sleep. We're not going anywhere. Perhaps we'll catch up with your thoughts on the weekend - or once you've had a chance to connect the dots in your research.
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Thanks for that - sometimes it feels like not everyone appreciates the teaching profession.
Once I read all the posts properly I might be able to see where my Kinches slot in. Its quite an unusual surname so hopefully we can unravel the oringins somehow.
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Hazel,
Doesn't matter to me if you reply in 6 months time!
Chill out and digest the information!
Have a sister-in-law who is deputy-head of a primary school (in IOM as it happens!) - so respect to all teachers out there!
RedMystic - I'm not actually in IoM! ;D
Used to live there; new wife has lived there for over 30 years; hoping to move back soon!
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There is a danger though that I will forget to reply if I don't do it soon. If its not on the to do list at this time of year or staring me in the face or in somewhere I can trip over it then it probably won't get done. :) :)
I do want to try and take my Kinch line back a further generation or to so I want to follow this through.
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I am wondering how the author got the information that your Kinch ancestor came from Inch on Gorey - if we can establish that, its pretty simple down to the present, if the ones there today are related to your Lawrence. They have been on the same place in Inch since 1854 anyway - I checked. I will root around for early Irish Kinch families to see what turns up. There was one called Henry who was murdered by the rebels in 1798 in Gorey, and one in Dublin who was put on trial for helping a murderer - not connected incidents.
PM
Hi Pastmagic,
I sent this query off to the maker of the family tree (posted in the opening of this thread) about 15 hours ago - that would have been through the night for him. I've not yet heard back, but he does seem friendly so I wait hopefully for a response. ;)
Hi again Pastmagic. The tree creator e-mailed me back saying the Inch on Gorey connection came from the LDS. Apparently another relative went to Utah & the connection was made for him while he was there. I'm not very good at the LDS on-line searches - don't find them very intuitive - but I will try to do a bit of digging around in the site in the next week or so. Surely, they would have a source documented for the info? ??? ;D ;D ;D
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That is a bit strange! So the plot thickens again. Clearly there is a Kinch /Inch by Gorey connection with your part of the world from that tombstone I found, and the shipping list entry I sent you, but without the Utah evidence there is no concrete evidence to connect Lawrence's line to that place! Does he or any of his Irish Born family appear on Canadian censuses with a Birthplace?. I'll have a look at the LDS again - I could not find him and I think I got all the Kinches, but I restricted the search to Wexford.
I have had a similar problem with a nice family in the US who are convinced they are my relatives, but although they went from here to the US and have the right surname and parish, there is no documentary way that I can see to prove the link, even, as in this case, there is only one family of the name in the parish. They are convinced my gggggfathers house is the "homestead" and go there every few years and we meet up!
See Ancestry have generated one of those odd books:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001KZLXO6?ie=UTF8&tag=ounainhi-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001KZLXO6
And to add to the confusion - Here is what the OUP has:
English: of uncertain origin; perhaps a shortened form of Kinchen.
Irish: reduced form of the Gaelic patronymic Mac Aonghuis ‘son of Angus’ (see McGinnis).
Anglicized spelling of South German Kintsch, a variant of Künz (see Kuntz).
Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press
On the more general question, I do generally rely on McLysaght - he is a much respected source. The passage you quoted about Saran is probably derived from one or other of the Irish Annals or old genealogies, and were written long after the event. This is a complicated area of study, depending on the source - we are in the hinterland of Irish research here, where myth meets history!
However, perhaps Wendy may be able to give us the sources for the House of Names research? That would be really helpful and might broaden our search.
I have never thought of doing a one name study, so there are probably lots of ways of finding out about the Kinch origins I don't know about - and it is fun!
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On my way to bed, i turned up this little gem:
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26234324/person/1828775954/story/3e7e4076-e1ef-4181-b5c1-01289a5be4f3?src=search
Let me know if you can read it!
Kinch and Von Kinch all mixed up together.....takes ages to read....
PM
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It is indeed fun! ;D
Apparently the 1841 census for Prince Edward Island, Canada indicates Irish ethnicity. I haven't had a chance to research that myself as yet. Tomorrow - though OH wants to interfere ::) ;D and have me go to town tomorrow. ::) Life does interfere with research. ;D ;D ;D
Apparently, Kinch family members came in 1818 after a land lottery - not ownership to the Kinch family - but to an absentee land owner. I've asked to have some verification of /readings on this.
Any uncertainty of TheShipsList transit info - my PEI Kinch contact says they went to Ontario & not to Prince Edward Island - not closely related.The description of RC compared to Protestants did make me laugh.
OH says it's 8PM, time to sit down with a glass of wine & get off my mini. ;D
Will look at your last link in the AM.
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On my way to bed, i turned up this little gem:
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26234324/person/1828775954/story/3e7e4076-e1ef-4181-b5c1-01289a5be4f3?src=search
Let me know if you can read it!
Kinch and Von Kinch all mixed up together.....takes ages to read....
PM
TX Pastmagic.
That's the article I pulled the German origin paragraph the other day. I didn't know it was on anyone's Ancestry tree though. I found it through a Google search.
It made for interesting reading, particularly the discussion that there possibly were two distinct Kinch families in PEI - both of Irish descent & arriving at approximately the same time. It's a very, very small island & Wexford / Wicklow aren't big either so that stymied me.
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OK I am feeling more human today and have read through thread. My gut feeling at the moment is that the Manx link is a red herring and the odd Kinch Manx record is variant to surnames already on the island...but I may be completely wrong about that. ???
I'm also wondering if there is more than one point of origin for the surname and that different surnames have created variants that have end up as Kinch. Which means untangling all the various branches from each other. I have no Irish connections whatsoever so I know very little about Irish records.
My Kinches can be traed back to one John Kinch who married in Swanbourne Bucks in 1778. His burial indicates he was born circa 1749. His marriage indicated that he was of Mixbury Oxfordshire. I have dug up plenty of records for Swanbourne but I have found every little online for Mixbury and I am not quite close enough to go there for a day hunting records. There does appear to be a batch number for Mixbury on the IGI but no Kinch/Kynch/Kench so it looks like the end of a trail. :( I have found Kench and Kynch as variants in my research. My Kinch line left Bucks for London in the 1840s and then moved out to Barking and into Essex in the 20th century.
I have been trying to find where I read that it was a variant of King but no luck.
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An Oxfordshire Kinch:
http://www.archive.org/stream/parochialcollpt200wooduoft#page/130/mode/2up/search/Kinch
"A parochial history of Enstone, in the county of Oxford" Free on google books, mentions this family.
Just because I found this looking for something else....not related to what you say above, but they are booth good book finds in a general way, so i put them up in case anyone was searching for that branch and passed this way.
Pm
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Thanks for that Pastmagic - the Kinches have definately been in Bucks and Oxon for a few generations before my trail runs cold but how to link up and of the loose ends or prove they are unconnected... I looked through to Mixbury but no clues for me. I think my only clues for John might be a will (unlikely as one of his children's baptisms described him as poor) or a clue on the banns entry in Mixbury (banns should have been read there as he was not OTP on his marriage). I have no idea of his occupation either.
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That reminds me, I found this eaelier:
Oxfordshire Archdeacon’s Marriage Bond Index - 1634 - 1849
http://www.whipple.org/oxford/4_alpha_by_brides_names.pdf
Quite a few Kinch bonds in this. Again, might be helful for anyone searching for Kinch in that area.
PM
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Thanks for that - John had a son Daniel and there is another Daniel Kinch of Enstone listed on your link so maybe I do link to Enstone as Daniel Kinch isn't a particularly common name. But I have also turned up a John Kinch bap 1749 to a Daniel and Lydia Kinch in Tingewick Bucks which is very close to Mixbury Oxon but I am clutching at tentative straws here and it isn't much help towards Red Mystic's original question.
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Sometimes these take a lot of time to work out!
Back to RM's comment about the small area in Ireland the Kinchs were in at the time of going to Canida. The place they are alleged to come from, Inch on Gorey, is actually on the Wicklow Wexford Border:
http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/I/Inch-Gorey-Wexford.php
gives a description of the place in the 1830
Another unverified internet source gives another raft of variant spellings - think RM may have put this link up already....
Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Kinch#ixzz1XZRYKrC0:
The Dublin distribution of the surname post 1765 - 1900 is quite interesting, showing equal numbers of Catholics and protestants:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name=KINCH&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search
And interesting is that on the later marriage certs, where the grooms occupation is given, they are mostly sailors, or Kinch girls marrying sailore. - which could mean they were really from Wexford!
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Fascinating stuff everyone has found & commented on. TX very much for all the interest in the thread.
I was going through some family papers recently. I don't know when the one I've attached was written or who penned it, but thought some of you who were following this thread might be interested in the indication of a Kinch connection to Germany.
PS I think I've figured out the people named; they date back to folk who were born as early as 1786.
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The mythology in my family is that the Kinches made their home on the England/Scotland border because they were bellicose (no mention of where they came there from), then moved to Wicklow in the plantations of the 1600s. Some very old relatives have said they were told a kinch is a noose.
My grandfather told me stories of the men walking down the street "and if an Irishman got in their way they'd knock him over the fence. If he complained, they'd knock him back over onto the street".
They came to the US in the 1800s after an uprising during which my ggg grandmother lay in a field with her children for 3 days hiding from the Irish.
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Thanks XISCify.
That is a fascinating story. It will be interesting to dig around to see if there's any verification of an 1800s uprising.
What do you suppose the old people meant when they said "a Kinch is a noose". Does that mean it's another word for a noose or being one leads to early & perhaps a violent end?
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A quick google search turns up definitions of "kinch" as a word for a noose or loop in a rope, and also as slang for "an unfair advantage". (online dictionaries and etymology sites, an excerpt from a book called "Death of a Joyce Scholar"). Whether it's a coincidental homophone or maybe separate lines of Kinches got their names in different ways, my older relatives were quite fond of this bit of trivia.
I don't know how accurate family legend is, but given my ancestor's boasts of how they treated the Catholics, and that they didn't see themselves as Irish even after being there for 200 years, it seems believable that they would have reason to flee...
I also don't know how big an "uprising" we're talking. It could have just been 1 angry mob, or ongoing Catholic/Protestant hostilities