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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: gav on Sunday 04 September 11 05:24 BST (UK)
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Help with finding information on Catherine WILMSHURST, born abt 1861, no registration entry found in South Australia Births.
She married George Knott 12 Jun 1879, Appila, South Australia and her death date, 30 Jul 1893 Happy Valley, South Australia. Approximated DOB is by her marriage age.
Registration of children births show both WILMSHURST/WILMOTT
Catherine’s father on the marriage entry was recorded as John William WILMSHURST.
Children of George and Catherine –
George Alfred James Date: 1880-03-02 Birth Place: Port Pirie
William Fredrick Date: 1881-03-06
Robert Date: 1883-06-22 Birth Place: Wirrabara
James Henry Date: 1885-08-26 Birth Place: Nr North Gumeracha
John Cecil Date: 1888-01-29Birth Place: Houghton
Violet Mary Date: 1890-02-12 Birth Place: Beetaloo
Elizabeth May, Birth Place: Happy Valley 1892-05-19,
Katherine Elizabeth Date: 1893-07-30 Birth Place: Happy Valley
Catherine father - John William WILMSHURST – I Found a William John WILMSHURST who married a Mary Annie KEELEY – Mary died at Wirrabara South Australia
Catherine WILMSHURST and George KNOTT had 8 Children, their third son Robert, born 22 Jun 1883 at Wirrabara South Australia; Mary Annie WILMSHURST nee KEELEY died 7 Sep 1889 Wirrabara, South Australia.
I have been in touch with descendents of William John WILMSHURST and Mary Annie KEELEY and they have nothing on Catherine being part of the family.
Any help would be appreciated
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Firstly there are many missing births from the SA indexes. Catherine was 19 when married. Who were the witnesses at the marriage?
Cheers
Cando
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Do you know John William's occupation and what was Catherine's mother's name?
Jamjar
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The surname of Catherine on the birth indexes is WELMCHURST/WELLMOTHERS/WILMHURST/WILMOTT/WILMUSH/WILLMUSHT/WILMURST. Did Catherine sign the marriage cert or mark with a cross?
In 1879 marriage certs in South Australia in SA list
Date and Place of Marriage
Bride and Bridegrooms Names, Ages and Rank
Condition
Trade
Residence
Father's names
Cando
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Now that's a lot of variations! Reminds me of my Lawardorns. ;)
Is there a reason why it is thought that Catherine was born in SA?
Jamjar
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Thank you for your responses
There no reason to presume Catherine was born in SA, but have checked the New South Wales BDM, Ancestry.com, Findmypast for baptism records and a number of other sites.
I have found a number of family trees with Catherine, no birth date or mother and they probably got that data from my family site.
I do not know John William’s occupation and would love to find Catherine’s mother’s name.
Maybe its one of the many missing births indexes, Cando..
I haven’t got the marriage certificate, the marriage details I have are from the Digger CD SA marriages, showing date, place of Marriage and father of Catherine.
If I did purchase the marriage or even death cert, would it be a benefit, I been told the early SA certificates have very little info.
Cheers, gav
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William John and Mary Annie had two children in February 1865, how many can you find regtistrations for before that date?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/39134819?searchTerm=wilmshurst&searchLimits=l-decade=186
Debra :)
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Hi Debra - your find could be the clue I been looking for
This pager report in the Register showed that there was 2 children, one child left with friends and the births register have only one at that time, the pager report says they separated and maybe because Annie was pregnant with William Amos got back together
William John and Annie Chiidren
Elizabeth Harriet Julia Ann
Date: 1864-04-18
1865-02-18 William having deserted his wife
William Amos
Date: 1865-09-26
Sarah Harriott
Date: 1869-11-03
Annie Adelaide
Date: 1871-07-15
Sarah Harriott
Date: 1872-12-21
Clara Ellen
Date: 1874-10-20
Elizabeth Julia
Date: 1877-04-06
Cheers, gav
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:)I will probably lay claims that Catherine is the first child of William John, not John William WILMSHURST and Mary Annie Keeley. I will keep looking to try and fully verify the matter.
Catherine and George KNOTT had 8 Children, their third son Robert, born 22 Jun 1883 at Wirrabara South Australia; Mary Annie Keeley died at Wirrabara. Wirrabara is a very small town, the nucleus of the WILMSHURST family that arrived in SA settle at Thebarton, Adelaide.
I have done a check on William and Mary children, their daughters had a child at Wirrabara and the register entry was both WILMSHURST and WILMOTT, this happened a couple times with the children of William and Mary have confused the surname, like Catherine an George in the SA birth registered WILMSHURST and WILMOTT for her children.
Only 7 birth registered to William and Mary Annie, but there was eight children
This pager report below, thanks so much to Debra who found it in the Register, the article below in the Register showed that there was 2 children, one child left with friends, the births register have only one at that time, the pager report says they separated, and because Annie was pregnant with William Amos I guess got back together.
South Australian Register Saturday 18 February 1865
W. J. Wilmshurst was charged as having deserted his wife, Annie Wilmshurst, without leaving her any means of support. Complainant stated that she was married to defendant about three years ago at the Catholic Chapel, Wallaroo. Her husband did not turn her out, but the bailiff entered for rent and left her no inducement to remain. She would have become houseless and homeless but for the kindness of some friends at Thebarton. Defendant called the assistant bailiff and several other witnesses to prove the intemperate habits of his wife and her utter neglect as to his meals. The Court ordered a payment of 10s a week towards the maintenance of the wife and one child, the other being cared for by defendant's friends.
Cheers, gav
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From the dates that you have for Elizabeth's birth and her parents' marriage there is a good chance she was born before the marriage. As they and their extended family stayed in the same area, perhaps a check for a baptism under both surnames might find her. You would likely have to chase this up with the local church.
Debra :)
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G'day
Yes there is a good chance she was born before the marriage, certainly pregnant. I will try church records and also plan a trip to visit the towns in South Australia associated with the Wilmshurst famiy, probably on the way when I visit my home town of Broken Hill
I have now fully explored the Wilmshurst name in the 1800's South Australia and all come from 4 brothers, whom emigrated to SA, sons of William Wilmshurst and Jemima Twynan – Kent England.
Same of the family also emigrated to New Zealand.
Cheers, gav
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Before coming across this site I had also come to the conclusion the Catherine was (a) unregistered (unless some really bad spelling) and (b) born before her parents were married. i am also wondering if even though Mary Annie Keeley and William John Wilmshurst were married, if Catherine was even his child, having been born before their marriage.
In the court when William was being sorted for desertion and maintenance 1865, Mary Annie was referred to as Annie.
Interestingly Annie Keeley was also in court in October 1862 with Patrick Creamer who was up for child support for his illegitimate daughter by Annie.
POLICE COURTS. ADELAIDE: TUESDAY, OCTOBER 21. [Before Mr. S. Beddome, P.M.]
South Australian Register (Adelaide, SA : 1839 - 1900) Wednesday 22 October 1862 p 2 Article
Was this daughter Catherine?
(pause for dramatic music)
I am continuing to check for a child with variations of Keeley, Creamer and Wilmshurst surname, even though it is possible she was not registered at all.
I have come across Patrick Creamer before in doing my mother's history, luckily he's not related, as yet (he has a bit of a rep being in court for other minor offences) but there was also a Catherine Creamer around the same time who was of his generation which may indicate Catherine as a family name.
Mary Annie's background as I know .... father John Keeley
Mary Annie Keeley was born 1837/1838. She arrived in Adelaide from Liverpool on the ship Bee on 9 October 1858
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DRUM ROLL!!!!!!!!
KEALLEY female child not named b: 20 May 1860
Father: Patrick CRAMMER
Mother: Ann KEALLEY
Birth Place/Residence: Adelaide
Ade / Book: 15 / Page: 348
Symbol: X
Cross Reference: See also: CRAMMER (not recorded)
Essie
Also found this record
(not recorded) CRAMMER
b: 20 May 1860
Sex: F
Father: Thomas CRAMMER
Mother: Ann KEALLEY
Birth Place/Residence: Adelaide
Cross Reference: See also: KEALLEY (not recorded)
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Good find Essie. :)
I would add that the Symbol X was on both registrations....
X. Cross referenced Registration. Major Spelling Variation between Registar and Informant. Confusion between given and surnames and ambiguity of which parents surname is to be used for the child.
Another example of how one should not always believe the information on certificates ::)
Cheers
Cando
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Patrick CREAMER arrived in South Australia 9 Oct 1858 on the BEE Also on board were John, Etty, John and Thomas CREAMER and Mary Ann is noted as Ann KEELY
Annie KEELEY 's appearance in court 1862
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ezv/
The recent marriage of the defendant
CREAMER Patrick 23 years Status Single Father John CREAMER
NUGENT Rebecca 22 years Status Single Father William NUGENT
18 Aug 1862
At St Patricks Church Adelaide Ade 51/93
Wm's appearance in court 1865 "Defendant called the assistant bailiff and several other witnesses to prove the intemperate habits of his wife and her utter neglect as to his meals." ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ezz/
Death notice for John WILMSHURST husband of the late Mary Annie and son of William.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ezy/
Cheers
Cando
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Aren't records lovely? i was looking at that birth too ... shame she didn't have a first name!
So old Patrick marries Rebecca .... offers to take the child from Annie when the courts ask him for money .... Annie has to find someone else to support her ... marry ..... william? But he's not happy in the marriage , maybe because of her past , and deserts her off and on.
Well it's all speculation .... bit of a soapy (I need to go to bed)
Happy hunting everyone
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just to add, because it was in my thoughts in regards to Annie's arrival .... South Australian Register 11 Oct 1858 has her name as Mary Ann Keeley - not just Ann Keeley
SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. ARRIVED.
South Australian Register (Adelaide, SA : 1839 - 1900) Monday 11 October 1858 p 2 Article
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How about this entry in BISA . . . . more confusion of names albeit the name of the daughter . . . . don't think they were a different family ?
CRAMER Patrick
arr: by 1860
res: Adelaide
rel: RC
m: Anne nee KELLY
ch: Cath (1860-)
AND also this for Patrick.
CREANOR Patrick par: John and Etty
b: c1840 KID IRL
arr: 1858 BEE
occ: Labourer res: Adelaide
rel: Rc
m: 18.8.1862 Adelaide SA Rebecca nee NUGENT
Essie
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There is also an Ann KEELY...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0f01/
I also wondered if they were a different family.
Cheers
Cando
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All are amazing, thank you - I been four year trying to find Catherine descendants and you nut it out in a couple of days.
I'm off to bed to mandywh, hope to find more.
Good night, Gav
South Australian Register Wednesday 22 October 1862
POLICE COURTS.
Adelaide: Tuesday, October 21. Before Mr. S. Beddome, P.M.
Maintenance. - Patrick Creamer appeared to show cause why he should not contribute to the maintenance of his illegitimate female child. Annie Keeley, the mother, attended with her child, and was recognised by Mr. Bee, the Relieving Officer of the Destitute Board. Evidence was taken as to the means of subsistence of the respective parties, and His Worship ordered a weekly payment of 5s. by the defendant, with costs 9s. Defendant, who was lately married, wished to take the child, but strong maternal feelings would not yield to such an arrangement.
Groom: Patrick CREAMER
Bride: Rebecca NUGENT
Date: 1862-08-18
Groom Age: 23
Groom's Father: John CREAMER
Bride Age: 22
Bride's Father: William NUGENT
Place: St Patricks Church Adelaide
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Essie - I think the BISA (I assume that is the Biog Index) entry is very interesting with the name "Catherine " on there .. more weight to evidence that this is the Catherine we're looking for?? Wonder where the original info came from that the daughter was named Catherine considering that the BISA was put together a long time ago. Christening records?
Patrick was never married to Annie ....and the surname issues are common with the name (imagine irish accent, poor spelling, transcription errors). Have done a lot of research on the Cremer family and come across Patrick many times,
I might add that I gathered all my info and speculation about the origins of catherine in just 1 day .... amazing what you you can do nowadays with indexes at hand and the internet! :)
I was even more delighted last night to venture on Rootschat and find her a topic !
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and Cando
I followed the link back to the Bee and read through the passenger list again and could not see Ann Keely - is she on the main group and about how far down the list? Mary Ann Keeley is easy to spot because she is last on the list
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on the ship was Catherine father Patrick CREAMER his Parents John and Esther (Etty) two brothers, John, Thomas and a widow sister Ann with her two children (CONNOR)
Special thanks to all you help.
Gavin