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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: mollymandysb on Saturday 03 September 11 13:24 BST (UK)
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help pls.
charles holder married martha hone in 1810 in bishops cleeve.
he had a henry in 1811 who married in 1837 to a maria and went on to live in brimingham.
i know he had another son charles, the only charles i can find was born in 1831 cleeve, on 1851 census found one 19 apprentice baker. but cant find him on 1841 census when he would have been 9.
cant seem to find charles and martha anywhere on census.
any help would be appreciated.
molly
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Do you have any evidence that Charles & Martha lived in Bishops Cleeve? I don't think they had any children baptised there, so perhaps Martha was from BC, but they lived elsewhere after their marriage. Do you know for certain that the Henry born 1811 was their son? How have you linked him to them?
Just realised I'm only looking at baptisms from 1813 onwards, so you probably have an earlier baptism for Henry.
Jane
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I believe Martha may have died in 1814. There is a burial at Bishops Cleeve on 3rd July 1814 of Martha aged 28, of Stoke Orchard (a village not far from BC). This would fit with the baptism (on familysearch) of Martha Hone at BC on 12th March 1786, parents Edward & Eliz.).
Jane
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I think the Charles who was born in Bishops Cleeve in the early 1830s, and went on to become a baker, belonged to a different (although possibly related) family. The 19 year-old apprentice baker in 1851 becomes a 27 year-old baker in 1861, and I believe that in 1841 he is in Bishops Cleeve, aged 7, with (presumably) his family: John 64, Phoebe 45, and six other children.
Jane
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Hi thanks for that
i am going to start working on it again now. i was just wondering, as you do, if charles aged 7, was just visiting because he is at the bottom of the page nd not in line with the other children, if you see what i mean.
steph
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i was just wondering, as you do, if charles aged 7, was just visiting because he is at the bottom of the page nd not in line with the other children,
I know what you mean, but I think it's more likely that the enumerator realised he'd missed him out, so added him to the end of the household. To be honest, I don't see Charles born around 1833 as the son of Charles and Martha. Apart from anything else, I think the 1814 burial I found is very likely to be Martha Hone.
How do you know that Charles and Martha had a son named Charles? Was he mentioned in a will? I wonder if he was older than Henry, rather than younger, perhaps from an earlier marriage? Just trying to think of possibilities here.
Jane
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Hi Jane
henry is a direct relative and as i say he ended up in the birmingham area where he became the owner of pubs/concert halls etc and was very big in the business, the business being taken over by mitchells and butlers later. it was told to us that henry had a brother called charles and that their dad was charles a farmer or butcher in bishops cleve and that the mother was martha hone married in 1810 in bishops cleeve.
i have found a chares b 1779 in b c married to a sophia retired farmer in 1861. charles jnr seems to have disappeared, wonder if he died early. cant find any baptism or christening for him either. but you know how it is, these sites dont always throw up the correct entry, sometimes they have the transcript wrong and you have to wing it.
steph
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Hi Steph,
I hope you won't mind word of caution: don't try to find information to verify family "knowledge" - search as you would without that knowledge, and if what you find ends up confirming the family story, then fine; if it leads to a different conclusion, but you are confident in the research you have done, then you are likely to be right. [Having said that, you could well be on the right track]
Was Henry's marriage the one I see in Aston in Q4 1837? If so, do you have the certificate? That really should be your next step, to confirm his father's name and occupation.
Charles junior might have emigrated, of course.
Jane
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Glos BMD http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx has the death of Charles Holder aged 29 in 1843, in the Deerhurst section of Tewkesbury District. This would put his birth round about 1813, so there is at least a possibility that this could be a son of Charles & Martha. Since finding that, I have discovered that this man was buried at Bishops Cleeve on 24th May 1843 - I think this increases the chance of him being Charles & Martha's son. It may be that his death certificate would be useful, maybe not.
Jane
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tx for that
yes it does look as if charles died early. i did see that entry in tewkesbury, a bit confusing because i dont think of tewkesbury as being near bishops cleeve.
yes, henry is in aston, birmingham where he became quite well known running concert halls and public houses known as 'holders' he later sold out to the brewery mitchells and butlers.
yes, i know what you mean about watching what information you gather because (and I v done it, i v got excited and followed a family right back and hey ho wrong family, have even sent for certs before and they were not the right ones).
thanks for your help.
molly
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Hi Jane,
May I join in on this, I haven't used this site before so hope that I enter it properly.
I'm interested in your 2nd reply, were you say, there was a burial in 1814 to Bishops Cleeve from Stoke Orchard. Was that of a Martha Holder - because that would fit in,if so,with Henry Holder, a son that I have of being born 1811 and living in Bishops Cleeve later on.
Martha's husband Charles Holder was a farmer/butcher, and they were married {Charles Holder/Martha Hone - Bishops Cleeve 1810}
Do you mind me asking where you looked this up to find out about the burial in 1814
I should like to follow that up - very interesting and I'm only just learning what sites to use.
Regards,
Lynn.
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Lynn, I'll send you a pm about this - the info is not online to the best of my knowledge.
Jane
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Hi Jane,
Please, how do I reply to a pm as there is no reply button as like here. Do I need to join any other part of the site to use that facility.
Kind Regards,
Lynn.
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Hi Jane,
Please, how do I reply to a pm as there is no reply button as like here. Do I need to join any other part of the site to use that facility.
Kind Regards,
Lynn.
You need to make another seperate post before you are allowed to use the PM service
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Thanks Woody. I'm surprised it's not possible to reply to a pm without making more posts. Sorry Lynn, try posting a few more things, I have a feeling you might need 5 posts to send a pm.
Jane
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Hi Jane,
Because there were only two children that I know off. They were married in bishops cleeve/stoke ochard 22nd May 1810. Had Henry 21st Nov 1811 and Charles {I don't have a date}
So if Martha Holder died 3rd July 1814 as you said at age 28yrs old, I suppose she could have died in child birth with Charles ?
If I can sort this out I am then O.K for the line of Henry as he goes forward.
Lynn.
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Jane, If I could find the birthdate of Charles Holder born to Charles Holder/Martha Holder that would be good. Lynn.
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Lynn, I think that's quite feasible - my thinking is that she died in childbirth or fairly soon after.
Jane
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I looked for the birth of Charles before (the baptism to be more precise!) but couldn't find it.
Jane
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Jane, Would be good to find occupation of Charles Holder senior, farmer/butcher. He died 14thJan 1866. Lynn.
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Jane, The only other thing would be that Charles, the brother or - half brother of Henry, if the father re-married as you had the thought that the father may have had a second marriage to a Sophia.
There were defnitely these two boys as I saw the will of this Charles from Elmstone, Hardwicke when he made it in 1843 and he left £100.00 to his brother Henrys two children.
With so many thanks for your help.
Lynn.
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Jane, One more thing, would be, that by the time Charles was making his will in1843, Henry was by then living in Hanley Swan and Malvern. Think I have made a good five posts so shall let you know when the pm messages opens up for me. Lynn.
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OK Lynn. I'll pm you again now, and maybe you'll be able to reply!
Jane
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Hello all,
I am a direct descendant of these Holders, and have (a certain amount) on them.
Please get in touch if interested.
Will
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Hello Will,
I'm ever so pleased to hear from you and would love you to get in touch. I've left you a message on the Brummies Talking site, to explain my interest.
My eMail is * or continue to talk through the Brummies Talking site as that is the one that I use the most.
You can correct me if I've got anything incorrect as I like to get everything possitively correct.
Regards,
Lynn Stratton.
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Post 1
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Dear Moderator,
My apologies for posting my eMail address and advising me about your pm system.
Regards,
Lynn Stratton.