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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: danuslave on Friday 02 September 11 12:24 BST (UK)
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Someone asked for a heads up on the Emilia Fox episode.
Wednesday 7 Sep 2011 9pm BBC1
Linda
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From Jaywit on the Larry Lamb posts
There's an old Daily Telegraph article by Nick Barrett giving some details of Emilia Fox's background.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632703/Family-detective.html
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Review of the episode in last Saturday's Times said this episode is one of the best ever. Will definitely be watching.
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I'm probably just ignorant or too old to know ... but who the **** is she ?? Could my lack of a TV be the reason ? :)
I'm going round to a friends to watch it anyway, so maybe that will enlighten me.
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I'm probably just ignorant or too old to know ... but who the **** is she ?? Could my lack of a TV be the reason ? :)
I'm going round to a friends to watch it anyway, so maybe that will enlighten me.
You will probably know her father :)
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Will I ??
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I've never heard of her either, and she is only a couple of years younger than me...but I've heard good reviews, and having missed Larry Lamb last week, am off now to settle down and watch! ;D ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia_Fox
Edited to add:
Just watched it. Was very interesting, have to say I LOVED the eldest great Aunt - she was brilliant! ;D ;D
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Very good programme absolutely loved her great aunt Mary. For 104 she was brilliant. Lots of interesting facts and resources given, especially if you have anyone from a theatrical background.
What will they give us next week to follow the last two episodes I wonder???
Regards panda
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That was an excellent episode, and not just because of the brilliant great aunts ;D Like a grand sweeping historical drama - most appropriate for an acting family :)
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Did I hear the 104 year old great aunt say a naughty word ? :o
And was it the other very old lady who was living with the 104 y.o., that died ?
Very interesting family; I loved the rags to riches and almost back to rags story of Sampson Fox !
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Did I hear the 104 year old great aunt say a naughty word ? :o
And was it the other very old lady who was living with the 104 y.o., that died ?
Very interesting family; I loved the rags to riches and almost back to rags story of Sampson Fox !
Yes, I think so, Pam was the youngest daughter of Hilda I think. How hard for Mary to survive her sister!
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I'm probably just ignorant or too old to know ... but who the **** is she ?? Could my lack of a TV be the reason ? :)
Did I hear the 104 year old great aunt say a naughty word ?
Lydart... ;D
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I really enjoyed this episode, both because of the interesting family history, but also because Emilia Fox was so obviously interested in her ancestors, and also seemed a very decent person herself. I also liked the way her own pregnancy was woven into the story. It was good to know the baby came safely in the end. It was sad that Pam died, but how wonderful for her family to have her memories on tape like this. I wonder whether the BBC will give them the footage that wasn't aired?
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What was Hilda's surname name? I thought it was Hanley...but I can't find her! ::)
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Great aunt Mary stole the show. ;D On the whole very entertaining. Anna
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What was Hilda's surname name? I thought it was Hanley...but I can't find her! ::)
Hanbury?
Nanny Jan
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Yes, thanks Nanny Jan...I thought I had spotted Commercial Traveller as occupation of head of house, and wanted to see who was the head of house etc...it was her Uncle.
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I loved this episode, Emilia came across as a lovely woman and her Gt Aunts were fantastic also. The few comments from the elder of the two were worthy of such a theatrical family.
I also enjoyed that it was entirely based in England without all the flitting about.
This series gets better and better :)
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It was good I agree. Shame Emilia hadn't seen her great aunt for 20 years though.
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great Aunt Mary made Two very pithy exclamations Can't remember the first , the second was "B****r" in relation to her father who left them for another woman
The laugh was, she was spoken to with raised voices as she was deaf, but her comments were made when Pam and Amelia were talking normally ...!!!
Both Larry Lamb and Amelia have been informative in that they have had access to unusual record sources. So much more interesting than only BMDs and Census returns
Spring
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I am intrigued by Hilda and her sister, Lily. I find it slightly annoying, that these people on WDYTYA, seem to have interesting relatives all over the place! (Whereas I have nothing but ag labs and coachmen! ::) )
What intrigued was the way that only "one" Hilda Hanbury popped up when they did the search...ie, where was she in other censuses.
So in the 1891 census, she is living with her mother and siblings in her Uncle's house. Her mother is down as "M" Couldn't find them anywhere else, so googled them. They were born Hilda and Lily Alcock. And in 1881, they are living with their parents, with a couple of servants and boarders (one being an actress :) ) I am now wondering why they ALL changed their names from Alcock to Hanbury.
Also a point of interest, it appears that Lily Hanbury was buried in a Jewish Cemetery.
(Have just discovered this all neatly written out in the Genealogist ::) ::) ) Oh well, it was nice hunting!
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Candle.
The 20 years comment made me take stock... My Pa was the youngest of 5 and his sister Enid the eldest ..his favourite and mine also..but why?
Looking back I only met her Three times in my life. Once in 1937 (I was aged 6)when my maternal Grandad died and I was sent to be out of the way, a long w/e with Ma about 1940 to their Barclays Bank Flat in Sutton Surrey and around 1955 when her dau was emigrating and then when she died and her funeral in 1972
Thinking about my own children, they have relations whom they have not only never met but would be unlikely to have reason to be in contact with.
Spring
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Loved this episode. Emilia was lovely, and her interest in her roots did seem genuine. Didn't know her partner was Jeremy Gilly, the guy who started the Peace One Day project. :)
Loved Aunt Mary too. Sad to see Pam died soon after. Wonder if Aunt Mary has managed to go on without her - she must be 105 by now if that was filmed last year when Emilia was pregnant.
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I was fascinated by the V&A Theatre and Performance Archive - I've just googled this and it seems to be very user-friendly:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/archives-theatre-performance/
Could be useful for anyone with a theatre ancestor.
Cati
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Emilia Fox was so natural, and very brave to make the programme only weeks before giving birth. It must have been very hard to see her ancestor Samson Fox branded a 'swindler', and then have him vindicated later on. A very enjoyable episode :)
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Very interesting background to Emilia's story.
Would anyone know where Samson Fox is buried please?
I noticed a local link in the show and would like to explore.
Thanks.
Lin
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According to the ODNB he is buried in Woodhouse Cemetery, Leeds.
Cati
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Welcome to RootsChat, lindka, hope you enjoy it here, there's lots to read and find out!
I just visited Wikipedia and discovered that on Samson Fox's page all the references seem to have been sourced yesterday, which seems like someone watched the programme and then set about writing up Samson for Wiki! That's very efficient. He was an interesting man. I'd have liked to know a bit more about his son, who seems to have been a bit of a wastrel. I wonder what happened to him after he went off with his "American Tart" (gotta love Great Aunt Mary!).
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Has anyone found the second marriage of Arthur William Fox? They divorced in 1923 and according to his will the date shown at the end was 12/3/1963 so it would be interesting to locate his death as well, any luck so far??? :)
regards panda
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Has anyone found the second marriage of Arthur William Fox? They divorced in 1923 and according to his will the date shown at the end was 12/3/1963 so it would be interesting to locate his death as well, any luck so far??? :)
regards panda
I wondered where all the money had gone: it might be interesting to find the will of the second wife - I wonder whether he had made some of his fortune over to her, to prevent his first wife and family inheriting it?
Cati
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he married an 'American tart' according to gt aunt Mary
i thought she was fabulous and such a shame that Pamela had died by the time the program was aired.
Sampson was a great fella too !
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Totally off topic ... but how did he manage to eat with all that beard ?? !!
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According to the ODNB he is buried in Woodhouse Cemetery, Leeds.
Cati
Thanks Cati
Such a speedy answer - did have a quick trawl on the net but couldn't see it.
He died local to me so wondered if he was buried around here,
Lindka
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This series for me has taken awhile to get going but this was really enjoyable, and Emilia came across as a really lovely person. Both her elderly aunts were great, good to have someone still around of that age.
I feel as it began that it was going to be a good one and was not disappointed.
Looking forward to Robin Gibb episode.
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Although I found this a good story and it was interesting to see the V & A archive - a valuable resource if you've got any theatrical ancestors, I don't believe much of this could have been a surprise to the Fox family. This press release from Harrogate council http://www.harrogate.gov.uk/pages/harrogate-3954.aspx (I think from 2005/6) shows that Edward Fox has been actively involved with Royal Hall restoration and includes a potted history of Samson Fox.
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We mustn't forget that this IS a programme for the general public, not for the likes of us !
With genealogy being the third most used aspect of the internet, it would be had to find people who haven't had a dabble, if only in a very casual way, to see if their ancestors are 'on the net' !!
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really enjoyed this programme but like Scintilla a bit sceptical right from the start when Emilia's father was showing her old family photos with grandparents etc & she seemed totally amazed by them - we grew up rooting through all the old family photos, my daughters all grown now, still love to get out all the family albums on occasions. How had the Foxes never done that?
Still thought they were great, especially the great-aunts
Pat
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really enjoyed this programme but like Scintilla a bit sceptical right from the start when Emilia's father was showing her old family photos with grandparents etc & she seemed totally amazed by them - we grew up rooting through all the old family photos, my daughters all grown now, still love to get out all the family albums on occasions. How had the Foxes never done that?
Like I said ... its a programme for the general public .... and they ARE all actors, anyway !
Off to stick photos in albums ... just in case I get asked to do WDYTYA !!
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I must agree with the last post. I spent lots of school holidays staying with my granparents. I loved looking at my Gran's photo album and she would tell me who they were. I now have the album and it is still treasured to this day. I could recognise everyone and knew who was related to who long before I got the family history bug. (mind you I have lots of other photos from other families and I haven't a clue who they are so swings and rounderbouts as they say ;D ;D
regards panda
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Has anyone found the second marriage of Arthur William Fox? They divorced in 1923 and according to his will the date shown at the end was 12/3/1963 so it would be interesting to locate his death as well, any luck so far??? :)
regards panda
I wondered where all the money had gone: it might be interesting to find the will of the second wife - I wonder whether he had made some of his fortune over to her, to prevent his first wife and family inheriting it?
Cati
I wonder too. How did Hilda survive as a single Mum, did she remarry , perhaps her family supported her.
The entire Fox family appear to have grown up in well to do households
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I loved this episode, especially as the great- aunts live near here and I used to see Mary walking in Fowey with her dog when I was young. A formidable lady!
Ellen
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I loved the episode of Emilia Fox as I was born in Armley, Leeds and so was my family. When she went to Armley Mills I was really chuffed as I havent been there for years as I have moved away from Leeds now. Armley Mills is about 100 metres from where I was born and lots of my family used to work in Mills like Armley and further across the River Aire in Kirkstall, Leeds. Leeds Forge is so famous a Company in Leeds and around the World and to find out it was Emilia's GGGrandad was a lovely surpirse. When I looked on the 1881 census to find Samson Fox I found that he lived not far from Armley Mills, or from where I was born so I feel totally connected with Emilia and her family. Thats what I love about ancestry and you all know someone who knows somebody.
Larry Lambs ancestry last week also connected me because his Albert Day who was connected to the menagerie with lions, reminded me of a book I have about things that happened in Armley many years ago. When the lions came to the Armley Feast (or Fair as they call it now) the lions would stand to attention when the national anthem was played. That is what it stated in my book. I Love WDYTYA?
regards Sandymc
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I wonder too. How did Hilda survive as a single Mum, did she remarry , perhaps her family supported her.
my great grandfather did a flit with another woman leaving my great gran as asigle moter with 4 children the same time as Wille & Hilda. My great Gran supported her family by cleaning jobs
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I was told that Angela Fox, Emilia's grandmother, wrote a book about the the family.
Do not know the title. my mother had read it years ago.
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This one ??
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Slightly-Foxed-Angela-Fox/dp/0002171619/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315512642&sr=8-1
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my mum knows a lot about the family. Angela was Illegitimate daughter of playwright Fredrick Lonsdale
birth name Angela Muriel Darita Worthington. Noel Coward's song, "Don't Put Your Daughter on the stage, Mrs Worthington", was inspired by Angela's theatrical ambitions. Her mother, Lucy "Glitters" Worthington, was the wife of Dr Worthington of Birchington, Kent.
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Hi :)
Yes, the book was published in 1986 and I read it some time ago as well. And I heard Angela Fox on a local London talk radio station discussing it. Nearly everything in the programme is in her book which is beautifully written and really gives one a taste of the times.
The original research seemed to be about the collapse of the company and the linking with the Royal College of Music and Edward VII. Angela Fox had a lot of extra information about Samson (who among other talents was an accomplished violinist) and the rest of the family in her book.
She doesn't name them all, but Hilda and Lily Hanbury were part of a whole crop of cousins all of whom were actresses: Julia Neilsen, Florence Jamieson, Hilda Jacobson, Nora and Eileen Kerin.
If you look on The Genealogist website http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/wdytya_emiliafox.php and click on the link to the family tree at the bottom, Hilda and Lily were the daughters of Mathew Alcock and Elizabeth Davis who had five daughters. Matthew was the son of James and Susan Alcock. Elizabeth was the daughter of John Davis and Julia Keesing. Certainly Julia Keesing was of Dutch Jewish descent and it may be John Davis was as well.
It may be of interest that the "American Tart" Willie (really Arthur William) Fox ran off with was also a musical comedy actress Edna Lewisohn born McCauley who married banker Jesse Lewisohn and became the mistress of 'Diamond' Jim Brady. No idea about her parentage but if anyone has a subscription to the New York Times, there is an archive obituary which may say more. It ended badly for her because she died shortly afterwards of appendicitis in Paris.
If I remember rightly, Pamela Michael is the name of Robin Fox's sister who married a literary agent, Maurice Michael.
I think Angela Worthington Fox also has Sephardi Jewish ancestry. Her mother was Muriel Morice who was herself illegitimate, the daughter of a stockbroker and a coachman's daughter. I think the stockbroker was of Jewish descent. But as I've said on another board, I think they were all taking their cue from the Prince of Wales and then King Edward VII whose dalliances with actresses, society ladies, parlour maids were legendary but probably not more than a lot of monied men of that time!
Muriel had one legitimate daughter by Dr Worthington and the rest of the girls were daughters of Frederick Lonsdale. It's said that Frederick first approached Muriel's legitimate half-sister who wasn't interested and suggested he pass to her illegitimate half sister. So these men were always sniffing around and he also moved on to someone new after Muriel.
As Angela Fox says of the Fox family but it surely could apply to any number of the families at that time: "The Foxes were really men's men; women were vitally necessary but as ornaments chiefly - to be turned to when the day's business and fun were over. Women were considered to exist to please, to comfort, to amuse their men - and if they failed, the men left them. It was up to the women to see that the financial settlements were to their liking - a hard code, perhaps, but that's how they were."
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The Fox family are obviously very well documented! Maybe the WDYTYA researchers needed a few weeks off, it must have been very easy for them.
I enjoyed this one, not so much the theatrical side but the Samuel Fox industrial part. I thought it was a pity that little was made of Samuel Fox's beginnings in the textile industry. Emilia seemed a bit disappointed to learn that his father was an overlooker, dismissing it with 'What's that?', and no explanation was given!
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i wonder if they are related to Samantha Fox ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I saw this and Alan Carr while away on holiday
Enjoyed it though the details have faded a little
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I am intrigued by Hilda and her sister, Lily. I find it slightly annoying, that these people on WDYTYA, seem to have interesting relatives all over the place! (Whereas I have nothing but ag labs and coachmen! ::) )
What intrigued was the way that only "one" Hilda Hanbury popped up when they did the search...ie, where was she in other censuses.
So in the 1891 census, she is living with her mother and siblings in her Uncle's house. Her mother is down as "M" Couldn't find them anywhere else, so googled them. They were born Hilda and Lily Alcock. And in 1881, they are living with their parents, with a couple of servants and boarders (one being an actress :) ) I am now wondering why they ALL changed their names from Alcock to Hanbury.
Also a point of interest, it appears that Lily Hanbury was buried in a Jewish Cemetery.
(Have just discovered this all neatly written out in the Genealogist ::) ::) ) Oh well, it was nice hunting!
I realise that this thread was made awhile ago, but I did some research after watching this episode. It turns out that Lily and Hilda's mother, Elizabeth Davis, was of Jewish lineage, hence the connection to Willesden Jewish Cemetery and Elizabeth's sister Louisa's marriage to Solomon Nathaniel Jacobson. On her marriage certificate, her father is called "John Albert Davis", who was a "cigar manufacturer". I traced the family to the 1871 Census, where John Albert Davis is married to Julia, who was born in Amsterdam, Holland. The reason why his history was initially difficult to trace is because he changed his name during his lifetime, although his death certificate lists him with his original name "Joseph Angel Davis". The 1861 Census has Julia as the head of the household and under the occupation the recorder has noted that her "husband JOSEPH [is] absent" and that he works in the cigar trade. I did a search on freebmd.org.uk and discovered that Joseph Angel Davis, son of Ralph Davis and Maria (according to the 1841 and 1851 Census), and Julia Keesing were married in 1842 in the City of London, alongside other Jewish couples. Keesing seems to be a Jewish family in Amsterdam; or, at least, that name seems to be prominent in Dutch Jewish genealogy websites. I think Ralph might not be the real name of his father; there seems to be a marriage between Angel (Asher Anshel) Davis, son of Raphael Frieslander, and Maria Davis, daughter of Joseph, in 1814 on SynagogueScribe. The similarity with the names (since Angel is Joseph's middle name) might be a coincidence, but it's not too ridiculous to presume that they could be relatives.