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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: blamking on Wednesday 31 August 11 22:32 BST (UK)
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I've traced one of my lines to a family that lived in Saint-Hugues, Quebec. The head of this family was John Whitman; his wife was Catherine Sey. They had several children, many of which were died as infants / at birth. What confuses me is the records on the 1861 and 1871 census. According to the 1861 census, John Whitman was born in England around 1781 and his religion was Anglican. Catherine's last name was listed as Legush (I don't know if this was a mistranscription or not) and her birth year as 1800 in Bas Canada (Lower Canada, a British colony on the lower St. Lawrence River), and her religion was also Anglican. By 1871, Catherine was a widow, still living in St-Hugues, with her ethnicity described as German.
Considering all of my Canadian ancestors except these were of French ethnic origin, this family is something I would like to explore more thoroughly, but I seem to have hit a brick wall. I cannot find any record of John and Catherine's marriage in any databases or parish records. Another thing about the parish records - The birth records of John Whitman's children appeared in the Catholic parish records - why would this be the case if their parents were Anglican? Maybe I just don't know enough about these types of records. Also, it seems that John and Catherine's son John had a Catholic wife and children.
Does anyone know anything about this family in particular, or can provide me with some general insight? Does anyone know anything about why there would be Germans in Quebec in this time period? It all seems somewhat unusual to me. By the way, the earliest record of this family I have in Saint-Hugues is the birth of their 3rd (?) child, Marie Adeline, born 29 Oct 1831. I know they had at least two children born before this, based on the census records.
I attached a clip from on of the parish records. Does everyone agree that Catherine's last name is "Sey"? It, too, strikes me as a bit unusual, as I have had a lot of trouble finding anyone by that name in Quebec records.
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Answering my own question about Germans in Canada:
(From Wikipedia)
Conclusion of the war
After the war ended in 1783, some 17,313 Hessian soldiers returned to their homelands. Of the 12,526 who did not return, about 7,700 had died. Some 1,200 were killed in action and 6,354 died from illness or accidents, mostly the former.[citation needed] Approximately 5,000 Hessians settled in North America, both in the United States and Canada. In some cases, their commanders refused to take them back to Germany because they were criminals or physically unfit. Most of the men married and settled amongst the population of the newly formed United States. Many became farmers or craftsmen and were able to take advantage of opportunities in the new country. The number of their direct descendants living in the U.S. and Canada today is a subject of debate. One persistent story is that George Custer may have been a Hessian descendant.
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Hi there
Looking at Marie Adeline's baptism and this record I would say that the name is Sey.
Looking at other pages in the 1861 Census I would say that the first letter of the transcribed Legush is an S and that you possibly have Sey as the first 3 letters.
I suspect that the records are from a Catholic church b/c it was the only church around. If you google St Hughes Quebec you will learn that it was a small village. I note that John Sr was buried at an Anglican church, however, and it was at Sorel?
I was wondering how you know there were children older than Marie? Do you have the family on the 1852 Census? I can't seem to find them?
I have not been able to find a marriage record for John and Catherine ... it must be well buried.
PB
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Hi and thanks for the help. Where did you find the original 1861 census? I only had the transcription on familysearch available. If I could see it, it might help me some. The transcription of familysearch indicates that there is a "Park. Witman" born 1829 on page 150, line 36 of the Saint-Hugues census. I guess that puts it several lines above Catherine. I think I thought that might have been a mistranscription of "John" but now I'm not so sure. Like I said, seeing the actual census would make a big difference. By the way, John would be my great great great grandfather. In 1871 he appears on the St-Hugues census with his wife Adele and children, plus Catherine, age 70, which is why I first assumed John was her son. I haven't found John's birth record or his marriage record to Adele Menard, which would help solidify his connection to John Sr. and Catherine. I think the 1852 census for St-Hugues was one of the ones that was destroyed.
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The image of the 1861 census was on *Ancestry*. Unfortunately, the 1861 census is the only one not available for free through the Canadian National Archives. How did you access the Drouin Collection record you posted? If you have that access on line you should get the 1861 census as well.
Or if your local public library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition you would have access to the image that way. Also, some Family History Centers (the familysearch folks) subscribe as well.
That said ....
Line 36 on page 150 is a Jack Witman 32 Anglican Farmer married to Adele Menard 22 Roman Catholic.
John, Cath, and Ann are on lines 44, 45, and 46.
Then did you note that line 47 has an Adolphe Picard 23 Farmer married to Sara Witman 17? They are noted as having married within the past year (something like that).
The screen is bouncing ... I will continue.
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The images of the parish records are available through familysearch, but images of the 1861 census are not - only the transcription. Jack is a version of John, so I was at least partly right. I knew Sara was on the census too, but I did not know the name of her spouse. If they married that year, maybe I can find it in the parish records.
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Continuing ...
They are beginning to come out of the woodwork now. Here is the marriage of John and Adele from the Drouin Collection.
At Christ Church Anglican, Sorel, Quebec
John Whitman of the parish of St Hughes, Bachelor, was married, by Banns duly published, to Adele Menard of the same parish, Spinster, 14 Feb 1860. John and Adele signed with their marks. One witness was an Antoine Menard who also signed with his mark and the other was a John ? (not Whitman or Menard but I can't quite make it out). Unfortunately, the Anglican churches did not normally give parent's names the way the RC churches did.
I don't see a marriage for Adolphe and Sarah at this church in 1860 or 1861.
Polarbear
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I found Adolphe Picard's signature on Augustin Picard's 1860 marriage to Philomene Blair, but I do not see Adolphe's marriage in the St-Hugues parish records either.
Do you think John Sr. and Catherine might have been married in Sorel too?
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Also, why was she called "spinster"? Wikipedia says that this term means she is at the end of her reproductive lifespan, but she definitely had several children. Or in this case is it just being used in the literal sense, that she actually spun wool? And by the way, Adele's father and brother were named Antoine - the first witness was probably one of them.
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It is possible John and Catherine were married in Sorel too. You could try looking back throught the years ... there is usually an index at the back of each year so you don't have to go through page by page, although it is a small parish and not that many pages anyway.
Spinster here would mean a woman who was not previously married.
PB
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Where did you find the Sorel records - still Ancestry or somewhere else?
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Yes, Ancestry.
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I just requested an interlibrary loan for the index to Christ Church, Anglican's vital records. That should at least give me a new start.
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Seems odd that the only other Witman/Whitman in another area of Bagot is a Catherine born U.S.
Says she is 95 so I guess not yours, just coincidence? Were the rest of the family catholic on the census, and just John Anglican...Frustrating that there isn't much more than census records to look at...
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e326/e008146471.jpg
I did find a some information about Whitmans from the U.S. probably settling in Quebec... would be frustrating if the census taker miss-interpreted "New England"
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I had seen that record, and I think is is just a coincidence. There a just too many discrepancies between this record and the other two records.
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OK, so I got the Sorel Anglican Church vital records index, and it has given me a lot more information to work from. There are several Weightman/Whitman and See/Sea records. These are my new hypotheses given the new info:
It seems that two Weightman's (brothers?) settled in the Sorel region around the same time - John in Saint-Hugues and Hugh in Sainte-Anne-de-Sorel. John married Catherine See, and Hugh married Elizabeth Edvage, though neither marriage record is in the Sorel records.
John and Catherine had several illegitimate children, Hannah, Ann and John (who was baptized as an adult in 1858), though they appear to have married by 1831. Additionally, it seems that John was married previously to Catherine, as the Sorel records include a marriage of William Weightman, witnessed by his stepbrother John and stepmother Catherine Weightman. According to Hannah Weightman's baptism record in 1825, John Weightman was of Chabois or Cheboit, and Catherine See was of Pot au Beurre. I am unsure of where either of these places are supposed to be. John (Sr.) died Jun 27 1864 aged about 76. At this time his name was recorded as "Whitman."
Hugh and Elizabeth Weightman had three children baptized in Sorel - Elizabeth, Mary Jane, and Hugh. In addition to the records regarding the families of John and Hugh, it seems there was another Weightman. There is a baptism record for Elizabeth Weightman, born Sep 10 1819, "Daughter of Thomas and Mary Weightman, late from England." What does it mean by "late from England?" I assume it means they arrived fairly recently compared to the others.
Apparently, there were also three See's or Sea's (also brothers?) who settled around Sorel: James, John, and David.
James was a "former captain in the provincial militia, a native of New York state who came to Canada during the American revolution, died aged 81 and was buried Dec. 28, 1827, witnessed by David See." He was married to Mary, a native of Westchester, NY and resident of Sorel. They had sons David, Abraham, and John. David married Catherine and had William Henry, David, John James, Charles Henry, and Maria Ann. John was a merchant in Sorel.
John was an "American Loyalist late on the provision asylum of Sorel, died aged about 70 and was buried May 16, 1828, witnessed by David See." There was no other information on John.
Finally, the only records for David Sea were the baptisms of two of his children. He was married to a woman named Lenah or Leanah, and had Catharine, Apr 07, 1786, and Herman, Oct 28, 1788. This makes me think that this might be the Catherine who married John Whitman, and the same Catherine Whitman that J.J. pointed out on the 1881 census, as the date of birth would match exactly.
Anyway, I know this is a long post, but maybe it might help generate ideas about where to go next. I'm especially curious about what is meant by Cheboit and Pot au Beurre. I cannot find these locations, except for a road named Pot au Beurre in St-Michel-d'Yamaska, as well as a River near Ste-Famille I think. Please share any other pertinent thoughts you may have as well. I would also like to thank polarbear for pointing me in this direction, as I wouldn't have found any of this without your help.
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mentioned here as being rejected in an attempt to have a church erected, ( even though some funds were raised for that purpose) which usually meant small amount of people=no money in the coffers. http://anglicanhistory.org/canada/quebec/vokey1959/
Settlements were often by Rivers http://www.flickr.com/photos/douaireg/4764941960/
this river is called the Pot-Au-Beurre (Pot-of-Butter )!
Pot-Au-Beurre River, hydrographic feature having its source in the village of Sainte-Victoire, in Montérégie, flows about 20 km north-east, in the Yamaska River. At 5 km upstream from its mouth in the municipality of Saint-Michel d'Yamaska, at the height of the tip of the Ile Saint-Jean, it receives the waters of Little River Pot-Au-Beurre. The origin of this place name is obscure, but one can speculate that people were probably used to keep their butter cool in the summer, dropping it in the waters of the river, hence the name. Joseph Bouchette registered Rivière Pot au Beurre in his topographical description of the province of Lower Canada (1815). There is another river in Quebec Pot Butter. It flows at the boundary of the municipalities of Saint-Pierre and Holy Family of the Isle of Orleans. We find proof of this toponym Orleans in the delineation of the parish of Sainte-Famille in 1722. Variations: First River Pot-Au-Beurre; Creek dredging.
This description seems to fit he second location http://genforum.genealogy.com/gobeil/messages/16.html
"land on the Isle of Orleans in the midst of the St. Lawrence River across from the Beaupre Coast. The land was along a small river called Pot-au-Beurre, on the North side of the island in the Parish of St. Famille."
The other appears to be in Sainte-Victoire-de-Sorel http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eyr/
Also does it describe both locations here? http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eys/
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Thanks for the added info. I've found a few references to the See's in Sorel and have contacted one of the researchers to see if I can get more information. I've also found some references to Hugh Weightman - it looks like his wife's name may actually have been Elizabeth Elvidge. I don't suppose someone might be able to fill me in on the details of this marriage?
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This site has David SEE (born Bef 1754-d. Abt 1822)
parents Joost "Joseph SEE & Esther GARDENIER
has him married to Magdalena "Leanan" SNYDER
Of course site owners need to be contaced to confirm sources...
http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/thrise/1421/9239.htm
Agents to the Hercules and British America ...David See, Sorel.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=AcMpAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA23&lpg=RA1-PA23&dq=David+See+sorel
adding another
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SEE/1998-07/0899493790
and this site has wife as Magdelena Snyder / eight children listed
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=dsee&id=I7299
The Catherine born to David married William FALKNER
The first son's children not listed, and second son had a Catherine...but born c.1811
One has to be careful as there may have abeen a catherine in many of the 3 Sea sons families... ;D hehe
So could be an unknown child of John the brother, or one of his sons...
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There was another son, Herman? http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SEE/1998-10/0909347255
Also Joost had a brother Isaac, so may want to make sure he wasn't in the UEL equation
You may be looking for Zie & Sie as well...
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=dsee&id=I1537
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Sleepy hollow ZIE & Sie marriages !! Use "find on page to see them...
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/sleepy_hollow_marriages.htm
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Wow :o Thank you for all this - I'll be a while going through it all. I had seen the Hudson Valley Sees website, but the rest is new to me. After I made my previous post, I realized that my Catherine may not have been David's daughter, but David's son John's daughter. I had originally thought this was not the case, because several of her siblings were born in Ontario, but I realized that it was not unreasonable for her to return to marry John Weightman as the two locations are connected by the Saint Lawrence River. Plus the families did probably know each other. Also, it seems that Hugh Weightman ended up in East Gwillimbury, Ontario as indicated by the 1851 and 1861 censuses.
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I just found the following baptisms of children of John and Mary Weightman in Norwell and Carlton on Trent, Nottingham, England:
Rebeccah - 5/31/1779
John - 10/8/1781
Willm. - 10/3/1784
Mary - 9/28/1788
Thomas - 4/25/1792
Sarah - 1793
Hugh - 2/5/1797
Ann - 2/23/1800
I know the names are all rather common, but I also noticed that the birth years for Hugh and John of Sorel match pretty exactly. Plus there was a brother named Thomas which matches what I know (assuming of course that the Sorel Weightman's were siblings). Does anyone know any more about this family?
EDIT: It seems that there was also a substantial Elvidge family in the same area, so I think I may be on the right track.
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In addition to the PM I sent 21 Nov, Samuel PERRY, superior officer, led a group of about twenty Loyalists and changed location by Jul 7 1777. Samuel PERRY was from Palmertown, previously in Albany Co. and later in Saratoga Co., NY. The group included James SEE and Philip SNYDER. When the Loyalists left Saratoga for British North America their possible destination was a blockhouse on the south shore of Lac St Pierre near Riviere Du Chene and near Sorel, PQ. The journey took seventeen days and covered two hundred miles, arriving 3 Nov [year not given clearly but may be deduced from other facts, possibly 1778]. The family bible of Dorcas WATCHMAN says she was born 7 Sep 1779. Dorcas WATCHMAN, spinster, m. 6 Jul 1795 at St Peter's Church, Ernestown, ON to Joseph PETERS, bachelor. William WATCHMAN, son of Joseph and Dorcas, d. Centerville, Camden Twp., Lennox & Addington Co., ON, children b. Moscow, Camden Twp. Hannah GORDANIER, daughter of Jacob UE m. Peter MATHIS. Some GORDANIER descendants use the surname GARDNER. The term, "spinster" would be a polite reference that someone was not a widow, married or divorced.
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Hello,
First of all, sorry for my english. I'm much better in french.
My name is Ghislain Picard, i'm 39 and i was born at St-Marcel-de-Richelieu, small village neighbor of this other small village of St-Hugues (St-Hugues-de-Bagot).
My back back grandfather was Adolphe Picard that you mention 2 years ago. It's because i make some research about his first wife Sara that i found this thread that you wrote. I don't know, two years later, if you'll see this post.
For your information, the complete last name of Adolphe was Destroismaisons-Picard. He changed it to Picard-Destroismaisons and after, like many other Picard in the area of St-Hugues, they choosed to short it and only used Picard.
With my research, i found that Adolphe was born january 18 1839 and baptized january 20 1839 at the small city of St-Hyacinthe, 15 miles at the south of St-Hugues, following the Yamaska river. Adolphe's father was Charles (my back back back grandfather) and his mother was Edwidge/Hedwidge Valin.
Adolphe married Sara/Sarah/Saraly/Marie-Sara Withman (yes, found 4 differents first names about the same girl) june 17 1860 at the Christ's Church of Sorel City, a city on the south shore of the big St-Lawrence river, 29 miles at north-west of St-Hugues. I don't know why they go so far just to get married, but i have the feeling it's because the local priest didn't accept to marry them about the Sara's religion, language or origin.
I didn't found when she died, but april 14 1863, always at St-Hugues, Adolphe married a second wife, Marguerite Proulx, born in 1843.
Just before, Sara and Adolphe had a baby girl at march 30 1861 and baptized april 2 1861 at St-Hugues. Her first name was the same of her mother, Marie-Sara Picard. Her godfather was André Bélanger and her godmother was Julie Lefebvre. But it's all information that i found about this baby.
About the old paper scanned that you post here was wrote by the priest of St-Hugues. I can read that's about a baby boy without first name, dead at his birth, august 30 1843, baptized and go the same day at the cimetery of St-Hugues. Child from Jon Witman (farmer) and Catherine Sey, also living at St-Hugues, with the name of two witness.
Adolphe always lived at St-Hugues until he died at 73 years old, june 25 1911, going to the St-Hugues cimetery june 28 1911. He had 12 other childs with his second wife. The latest was my back grandfather Philippe, born october 27 1884 and baptized 2 days later.
Now, i'll read and try to understand all your posts to found some informations about his first wife Sara. But just for your information, about your post of the Ancestry web site, Adèle Ménard and John Withman/Wicheman seems they had 6 childs, no William, all at St-Hugues:
http://www.cjutras.org/CJ_WICHEMAN-J.html#F157255
But they have some missing people on these website.
Bye bye
Ghislain Picard
The image of the 1861 census was on *Ancestry*. Unfortunately, the 1861 census is the only one not available for free through the Canadian National Archives. How did you access the Drouin Collection record you posted? If you have that access on line you should get the 1861 census as well.
Or if your local public library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition you would have access to the image that way. Also, some Family History Centers (the familysearch folks) subscribe as well.
That said ....
Line 36 on page 150 is a Jack Witman 32 Anglican Farmer married to Adele Menard 22 Roman Catholic.
John, Cath, and Ann are on lines 44, 45, and 46.
Then did you note that line 47 has an Adolphe Picard 23 Farmer married to Sara Witman 17? They are noted as having married within the past year (something like that).
The screen is bouncing ... I will continue.
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Hello GPicard and a warm welcome to RootsChat.
I have had another look through the Drouin Collection and have found the burial record for Sara.
At Christ Church Anglican in Sorel...
Marie Sarah, wife of Adolphe Destroismaisons dit Picard, of the Parish of St Hughes, aged 17 years, died on the 24th and was buried on the 29th of February 1862.
Present at the burial were Adolphe, Catherine Weightman, and a third person I'm having trouble reading the name of. I think the last name of the third person might be Weightman as well, first name possibly John.
Polarbear
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Hello Ghislain,
Thank you for the additional information.
I am confident that my great great grandfather William Whitman was the son of John and Adele. His death record indicates his parents as John Whitman and Adele Maynard, and he also appears in their family on the 1871 and 1881 Saint-Hugues census.
I have confirmed that John, Thomas, and Hugh were from the Norwell and Carlton on Trent family that I mentioned a few posts ago. The book Seeking a Better Future: The English Pioneers of Ontario and Quebec, cites a parish record indicating this:
NTRO PR7347: Carlton-on-Trent Parish records. The emigrants included Mary Weightman and her four children (John, Thomas, Hugh, and Ann) and three grandchildren (John's children); Jonathan Selby and his wife and six children; Thomas Marrot and family; and John Batterby and family.
I also acquired a copy of the will of John Weightman (the father of John, Thomas, and Hugh). It seems he died around April, 1828, and left everything to his wife Mary.
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Responding to Reply #22 dated Sept. 10, 2011. I think it's very possible that Ann, the child of John & Mary Weightman, Nottingham, England, who was born 2-23-1800 married William Whittaker on July 1, 1823 at Christ Church Anglican, Montreal, Canada. He was a wheelwright, born ca 1798 in England and his father is believed to be George. i have found George and minor children in the relevant time period going up and down the river between Montreal and Three Rivers/Sorel in the mid-1820's.
Any input appreciated.