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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Olleyke on Saturday 27 August 11 14:04 BST (UK)
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This is a long shot, but in 1898 George Watt murdered his wife Sophia Watt (nee Marston) who is my 3rd great grand aunt, and according a book I recently purchased named 'Heroes, Villains and Victims of Norwich by Pamela Brooks', "George Watt was buried in the south-west corner of the prison grounds where he lies to this day."
Does anyone think that he may have a memorial or gravestone of some sort marking where he is buried or noting that he was the first man executed there?
OlleyKe
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Have you checked Norwich Casle Museum to see if there is a death mask of him?
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Yes, and unfortunately there isn't one of him :(
I'm not sure whether to contact the Castle Museum or the Prison about any records they may hold.
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I think castle Museum would be your best bet.
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Hi Olleyke,
The Norfolk Record Office hold many prison records - some of them relate to the period you are interested in -
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/Dserve/dserve.exe?dsqServer=128.60.0.31&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=8&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29=%27Norwich%20prison%27%29
Yorkslass
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Hi again,
I had a look at the Historical Newspapers website, but the various reports didn't give much information. You may have already seen this - I was amazed that an execution at Norwich should reach a newspaper in Auckland!!
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=AS18980902.2.17&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0--
Yorkslass
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There will be a record of where he was buried but I doubt if there would ever have been a memorial. Being executed was a cause of shame and prisoners weren't entitled to burial elsewhere.
I went to the Castle Museum earlier this summer - in the basement there's an interesting display about the castle's use as a prison, though I don't recall seeing anything about this crime.
Curiously, I think that Robert Browning, the first prisoner executed at Cambridge Gaol, having murdered a 15-year-old prostitute on Midsummer Common, may be related to my gt x 2 grandmother.
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http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org have him as James - 12/07/1898 James Watt Norfolk, Norwich, Wife murder.
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Yorkslass - Wow thank you! I know that it was in papers in Belfast, Bristol, London, but not Auckland!
Jeuel - I didn't mean a memorial, wrong choice of words ::) I mean something such as a plaque saying he was the first executed
flipflops - Thank you for the website. Several places he has been referred to as James rather than George :S
OlleyKe
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I wonder if this new book has anything about him in it? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0752458655/ref=aw_d_detail?pd=1
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could be - there's more here http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/products/Hanged-at-Norwich.aspx
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Thank you for the links Joanne and flipflops. I went into town today to try and find it but unfortunately Waterstones and Jarrolds don't have it yet ::)
Thankfully he's doing a book signing in Norwich next month so I'll be able to purchase it then and talk to him :D
Kirsty
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Olleyke
Interested that Sophia Watts was related to you as she was my wife's Maternal Great Grandmother and is the family 'Skeleton in the Cupboard'..
I've spent a bit of time trying to track down the story and apart from finding your post have found a really good book "Norwich Murders" by Maurice Morson. If you haven't seen it you will find the whole story of the murder and execution.
It would be good to exchange family knowledge at some point.
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Olleyke
Also meant to say - how did you get on with the other book suggested in earlier posts ?
Amazon have got the Maurice Morson book.
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Hi Ollie
I have been in Norwich prison many times
Before they built the new wings B & C the old Victorian wall ran around
This was mainly demolished
There is a part of the old wall left approximately 50 meters
There’s a grass verge which has the unmarked graves of I believe to be 5-6 who were executed there
There’s no memorial and a lot of people don’t know there’s unmarked graves there!
I hope I am able to of helped you get an answer
I think it’s terrible that their members of family are unable to pay there respects.
Please let me know if I have been as accurate as I can?
Best wishes
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Hi
George (aka in the literature, William, Jim but please see below) Watt was my direct line great-grandfather. One of his children witnessed the murder of their mother Sophia. There is good reason to believe that the child was my grandfather Thomas - whom I remember. Thomas' eldest surviving son (the two elder sons were killed in a WW2 prank which went badly wrong) was my father Peter Watt. Peter's middle name was Marston - but he always said he didn't know why - 'it is a family name'). I do not think that George was known as Jim or James for two reasons - the famous James Watt was an ancestor, and one of my dead uncles was called Jim.
Of course, the execution took place at Mousehold Heath Prison - which is still in operation. Executed prisoners were buried within the precincts (as far as I can see this is still the law - there was an attempt to reverse it when it became clear that Timothy Evans (10 Rillington Place) was innocent - but Timothy Evans was pardoned (and reburied in a Catholic cemetery) and the Bill failed with the change of government in the '60s). So it is impossible to visit George's gravesite - even if he is still there, many prisoner's bodies were stolen by the warders and sold for anatomisation. There may be an identifiable site.
One of my brothers and I are going to visit Sophia's grave next month. (Our other brother will not acknowledge the events in any way). There is a history of family trauma stretching back to the murder - and possibly beyond. Thomas was a Private in HM Royal Marines in WW1 and left with the usual WW1 medals and a Long Service and Good Conduct medal. Peter was a Royal Hospital School boy - which meant he joined the Navy at 11 and was on active service at 16 (Freetown Convoy Escort on HMS Frobisher). He left the Navy after Korea - so he had a full set of campaign Medals - including the Burma Star - for being on a ship which evacuated PoWs from Burma. Many members of the family were prison officers - both civilian and glasshouse. Peter was not - he was an electrician - but very much of the 'flog 'em and hang 'em' persuasion. Looking back he clearly had - unsurprisingly- some form of PTSD.
My brother and I follow different spiritual paths but we intend to say our own forms of words and prayers over Sophia's grave. I am trying to arrange a Chaplain (who can acknowledge different Paths) to say words and prayers over George's burial place.
I will use my words here in the hope that members of the Watt and Marston lines can agree.
Hail and Welcome to all present; seen and unseen, tangible and intangible.
We come in peace and fellowship.
We call upon George and Sophia to loose all chains of sadness and bitterness,
To forgive and be forgiven,
Let all depart in peace and fellowship,
Hail and Farewell.
I am sure my brother will use a Christian prayer which we can all acknowledge as another Path
(as Kipling wrote
'All ye who tread the Narrow Way,
By Tophet flare to Judgement Day
Be mindful ...)
Blessings upon all who read these words
Bob
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Hi Ollie
I have been in Norwich prison many times
Before they built the new wings B & C the old Victorian wall ran around
This was mainly demolished
There is a part of the old wall left approximately 50 meters
There’s a grass verge which has the unmarked graves of I believe to be 5-6 who were executed there
There’s no memorial and a lot of people don’t know there’s unmarked graves there!
I hope I am able to of helped you get an answer
I think it’s terrible that their members of family are unable to pay there respects.
Please let me know if I have been as accurate as I can?
Best wishes
Hi aneplat_37,
So sorry I haven't responded sooner, I never got an e-mail notification and I haven't been on here for a while.
It completely makes sense. There was an episode of Murder, Mystery and My Family several years ago regarding a murder that took place in Great Yarmouth. The accused was hung at Norwich Prison, and the relative went to visit the prison where their ancestor is buried. It was a curved wall with gravel and a plaque on the wall. I managed to take some screenshots of it.
Thank you for your help :)
Kirsty
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Hi
George (aka in the literature, William, Jim but please see below) Watt was my direct line great-grandfather. One of his children witnessed the murder of their mother Sophia. There is good reason to believe that the child was my grandfather Thomas - whom I remember. Thomas' eldest surviving son (the two elder sons were killed in a WW2 prank which went badly wrong) was my father Peter Watt. Peter's middle name was Marston - but he always said he didn't know why - 'it is a family name'). I do not think that George was known as Jim or James for two reasons - the famous James Watt was an ancestor, and one of my dead uncles was called Jim.
Of course, the execution took place at Mousehold Heath Prison - which is still in operation. Executed prisoners were buried within the precincts (as far as I can see this is still the law - there was an attempt to reverse it when it became clear that Timothy Evans (10 Rillington Place) was innocent - but Timothy Evans was pardoned (and reburied in a Catholic cemetery) and the Bill failed with the change of government in the '60s). So it is impossible to visit George's gravesite - even if he is still there, many prisoner's bodies were stolen by the warders and sold for anatomisation. There may be an identifiable site.
One of my brothers and I are going to visit Sophia's grave next month. (Our other brother will not acknowledge the events in any way). There is a history of family trauma stretching back to the murder - and possibly beyond. Thomas was a Private in HM Royal Marines in WW1 and left with the usual WW1 medals and a Long Service and Good Conduct medal. Peter was a Royal Hospital School boy - which meant he joined the Navy at 11 and was on active service at 16 (Freetown Convoy Escort on HMS Frobisher). He left the Navy after Korea - so he had a full set of campaign Medals - including the Burma Star - for being on a ship which evacuated PoWs from Burma. Many members of the family were prison officers - both civilian and glasshouse. Peter was not - he was an electrician - but very much of the 'flog 'em and hang 'em' persuasion. Looking back he clearly had - unsurprisingly- some form of PTSD.
My brother and I follow different spiritual paths but we intend to say our own forms of words and prayers over Sophia's grave. I am trying to arrange a Chaplain (who can acknowledge different Paths) to say words and prayers over George's burial place.
I will use my words here in the hope that members of the Watt and Marston lines can agree.
Hail and Welcome to all present; seen and unseen, tangible and intangible.
We come in peace and fellowship.
We call upon George and Sophia to loose all chains of sadness and bitterness,
To forgive and be forgiven,
Let all depart in peace and fellowship,
Hail and Farewell.
I am sure my brother will use a Christian prayer which we can all acknowledge as another Path
(as Kipling wrote
'All ye who tread the Narrow Way,
By Tophet flare to Judgement Day
Be mindful ...)
Blessings upon all who read these words
Bob
Hi Watt1,
So sorry I haven't responded sooner, I never got an e-mail notification and I haven't been on here for a while.
Lovely to hear from you. I was in contact many years ago with another ancestor who said the exact same regarding the stigma the murder had left in the family.
I remember reading an article from the time of the murder that one of George & Sophias sons, "a boy of about eleven" attacked George when he was apprehended, could that have been Thomas? I know Thomas would have been around 15 at the time, and Malcolm was have been around 9.
There was an episode of Murder, Mystery and My Family on the BBC several years ago regarding a murder that took place in Great Yarmouth. The accused was hung at Norwich Prison, and the relative went to visit the prison where their ancestor is buried. It was a curved wall with gravel and a plaque on the wall. I managed to take some screenshots of it. The plaque says "Twelve men were excuted in this prison, between July 1898 and 1951. Their bodies are buried here." I had previously contacted the previous regarding Georges burial and they said they had no information ???
Did you get to visit Sophias grave? We (my mum, uncle and I) are still local and tend to visit at least once a month.
Regarding the flying prank, are you referring to Alexander & Donald? I did try to research what happened but couldn't find anything at the time.
Are you aware of how George & Sophias son, Joseph died in 1913? We visited his grave last year after doing the research.
The Watt family went through so much. I can't imagine how it was for those left behind.
Hope you're keeping well.
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty
Thanks so much for responding!!
I’m Bob. Interestingly my brother Ian -who together with his wife Claire joined us at Sophia’s grave -has a daughter Kirsty.
When we visited Sophia’s grave Gill and I said some words in our Path and Ian and Claire said a Christian prayer and then we went for some lunch. We understand that Father Paulinus Heggs said a prayer over George’s burial place and- in the absence on duty of the Pagan Chaplain - said my words. Forgive and be Forgiven. We think it was Thomas who saw the murder. All of this was kept away from me and my brothers and I’m not sure what my Dad knew. All kept silent but -as Mark Wolynn’s ‘it didn’t begin with you’ makes clear - nothing needs to be said. There are three generations of anxiety and depression
Alexander (Jim) and Don persuaded the pilot of a plane they repaired to take them for a joyride. And then -despite the fact that the plane couldn’t do it- to perform some aerobatics. It crashed and all were killed.
We are glad Sophia’s grave is visited. It looks loved - did you find a homemade circlet of ivy and rosemary when you last visited? I’m giving up driving because everyone drives so fast nowadays so we will not visit again. We respect all Paths and Faiths so, in addition to your word and prayers, would you say our words?
You are right about the Watt family bearing a burden of guilt. I have heard other stories but can’t recount them because of trespassing on other lives.
The graves of executed prisoners need to be marked. We went to the National Memorial Arboretum a couple of years ago and saw that the Shot at Dawn memorial is respected. Prisoners’ graves should equally be respected.
Bright Blessings to you and your Family
Bob
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Hi Bob!
Oh really? I've never been a fan of my name after my mum told me I was named after a character from a horror film ::)
Unfortunately I haven't gotten to visit Sophia's grave since just before Christmas. Some health issues going on at the moment so as soon as I'm fit enough I'll visit. If there was either a bauble, a little Merry Christmas or a pine cone on a stick at her grave that was us. I'm not too sure which we left her. I'm glad you got to visit. We always make sure the area is clear. I remember when I used to visit my mum and uncle when I was 15 (back in 2005), the big fir tree behind her gravestone was so much bigger than it is now. We often cut back branches as they covered her, and there was always had some ivy growing on it. I don't blame you for giving up driving. I'm not allowed to drive due to epilepsy, but sometimes when I see how others drive I'm quite thankful for that!
I realised it must have been Thomas who witnessed it as Malcolm died aged 2, 7 years before the murder.
Did Thomas ever mention his brother Joseph? He was a policeman and tragically died aged 32 in Romford high street after trying to stop a runaway horse. I visited Romford Cemetery with my mum and uncle nearly 2 years ago and as you walk into the chapel, there are displays of people buried within the cemetery that are a part of their "Lives Remembered Exhibition". Much to our surprise we saw Josephs face up there with a little information around him and his death. He has no gravestone, but the people featured in the exhibition have marble markers so his grave was easy to find using the map.
I don’t suppose you have any photos of Thomas at all please?
I hope that all makes sense.
Kirsty
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Hi again,
If you have an e-mail address I'm happy to send you some bits I have.
Hope you're well
Kirsty
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Thanks Kirsty
Is there a way of doing this less publicly? Facebook then Messenger comes to mind. It would be good to speak. Bob