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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: betyty1712 on Friday 26 August 11 16:41 BST (UK)
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Hi = please could someone do a census look up for me?
I'm looking for a Joseph Brown, School caretaker, born 1860 in the Bradford/ Shipley area, daughter probably Ada, born around 1881/2 in Liverpool.
I'd be really glad of as much info on the family as possible - any or all of the census returns 1860 onwards.
I think I've gone wrong on my tree & attached my granny to the wrong family & now I'm going to have to delete half of my tree!!!
I'm hoping this turns out to be the right family this time! LOL!!
Thanks for reading.
Kath
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Hi Kath
Don't delete anything yet!! Just unlink granny from the 'wrong' family for the time being. You never know when that information might come in handy :o ::)
Linda
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Hi Kath,
I have had a look for Ada Brown with father Joseph in 1881, 1891 census. Nothing there.
Any other information you can give, however small might help.
Viv
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Hi,
If Joseph was married to Hannah and his occupation was a School Caretaker, born 1860 in Shipley as you claim, the daughter Ada I've found him with was born 1886, in Saltaire which is near Bradford.
Does this sound right ??
Kind regards,
Pels.
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Have a look at this in 1901 :
1901 census:
RG13/4148, Folio 17, Page 25
Yorkshire, Bradford
30, Britannia Street
Joseph Brown, h. mar, 42, Woolsorter, b. Yks, Baildon
Hannah, wife, 41, b. Shipley
Pollie, dau, 17, Confectioner (sweet), b. Saltaire
Ada, dau, 15, Worsted Millhand, b. Saltaire
Herbert, son, 12, b. USA British Subject
Arthur, son, 3, Bradford
Helen, dau, 10 mths. b. Bradford
In the later census Joseph was a School Caretaker.
Pels.
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Last reply until you get back and see what you think ! :)
~~~~~~~
Marriage, 31st July 1882
The Parish Church, Parish of Bradford
Joseph Brown, 23 years, Bachelor,
occ. Wool Sorter, 16 Ada Street. Saltaire,
son of William Brown (deceased) occ. Stone Dresser
Hannah Elizabeth Starkey, aged 23,
Spinster, occ. Weaver, 19 Jane Street
dau. of John Starkey (deceased) occ. Weaver
~~~~~~~
Pels.
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Hi - thanks very much to both of you for replying so quickly!
This has only confused me even more now! It looks as though it could well be the family I'm looking for, apart from the fact that Ada ( my grandmother) was born in Liverpool according to her marriage cert.
The only info I have on her is that she married George Henry Paley on 31 Mar 1906 in Bradford - her her age is given as 25, occupation barmaid & living at the Airedale hotel, Otley rd, Bradford. Father's name Joseph Brown, school caretaker.The witnesses were Fred Briggs - found him living near to my grandfather & it looks as though he was a family friend, no relation that I can trace. The other witness is an A. Bentley - no first name given.
Ada died in Bradford in 1935, age then given as 53. I've taken the age on death to be the right one - my mother & grandfather both lied on their wedding days! My Grandfather was born 1869 in Colchester so would have been aged 36 on his wedding day & my mother knocked 10 years off her age! My father thought she was only 5 years older than him until he saw her death cert - turned out she was really 13 years older!!!
My mother always told me that her mother grew up in Liverpool, Bootle area, so a Liverpool birth for Ada tied in with things.
I've tied myself in knots looking for more info on my granny - no family left to ask for any details! I've gone round & round in circles looking at every possible option till I'm totally dizzy with it!!
Thanks again for your help - I'll see if I can dig up any more on this family - if I find out more I'll post a message to tell you.
Regards,
Kath
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Found this:
1891 census : RG12, 2991, 65, 7
20 Exley street, West Derby, Liverpool
Joseph N Brown b. 1850 POSTMAN Mile End Town, London
Elizabeth b. 1851 Liverpool, Lancs
William H b. 1876 Telegraph Messenger Liverpool
Sarah b. 1881 Liverpool
ADA b. 1883 Liverpool
Esther b. 1885 Liverpool
Margaret b. 1890 Liverpool
Not sure if this makes any difference, as the occupation of the father does not fit, but worth a thought.
Viv
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Then, found Joseph N Brown (Postman)in the 1901 Census with a completely different family.
see RG13, 3492, 149, 3
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I am probably going off at a tangent here, but you never know:
1st marriage (would match the information in the 1891 Census)
Joseph Norman Brown
Elizabeth Kendall/Elizabeth Young
Liverpool, Lancashire
1873 Q3
8B 44
2nd marriage (would match up to the information I found in the 1901 Census)
Joseph Norman Brown
Alice Fanny Dalrymple
Liverpool/Lancashire
1894 Q1
8B 137
Viv
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We can take the one I found out of the equation.
In 1911 my Ada Brown, age 25 whose father was a School Caretaker, married James Hardford Richardson in Bradford. To confirm it, her address is the same as where she was living with her father Joseph on the census.
Typical we found two, but at least this cancels one of them ! :)
Pels.
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That leaves Ada Brown b. Liverpool with father Joseph (Postman) who obviously married George Henry Paley in 1906.
Would fit in with what I have found.
Were the first two children girls?
Viv
P.S: Do you have access to all the census?
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I'm still plodding on - this time trying to find the connection with Liverpool.
The only thing I can see is the birth of Benjamin :
1901 census :
RG13/4154, Folio 133, Page 33.
Yorkshire, Bradford
William Paley, h. 65, Stone Quarry Labourer, b. Yorks, Pateley Bridge
Catherine, wife, mar, 51, b. Hants, Brandean
George H, son, 31, Discharged Soldier, b. Essex, Colchester
Mary E, dau, 28, Plush Weaver, b. Yorks, Leeds
Annie R, dau, 20, Plush Weaver, b. Yorks, Bradford,
Benjamin, son, 18, Butcher, b. Lancs, Liverpool
Do you know anything about your grandfather's Army career Kath, I'm wondering where Ada met George Henry Paley. Was he the reason she was in Bradford, or was it a coincidence ?
Pels.
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Hi All - many thanks for all your replies!
I'm replying to all of them in one posting - seems easier!
The Joseph Norman Brown is the family I attached my granny to, after seemingly eliminating all the other Ada Bs I found born around that time. I'm sure I searched for a Joseph Brown, school caretaker ages ago & found nothing, so I thought that Joseph N. B. had probably retired from the postal service to become a caretaker. On the 1911 census he's down as "retired postman" but I though it just possible that if he'd spent most of his working life as a postie & only a couple of years as a caretaker, that he maybe felt more of a retired postie than an ex-caretaker! Also, a lot of the first names seemed to tie in with the bits I know about my mother's family.
Then, the other day I tried again for a J.B. caretaker & found one on FindMyPast in Bradford, born 1860.I've no access to full census returns at the mo, so couldn't look him up in full.
The William & Catherine Paley are my gr. grandparents - didn't know this until I started on my tree.
The only other smidgeon of a clue that I have is that my mother used to talk a lot about her "favourite uncle" who went down with the Lusitania - no name or anything to go on. I'm just trying to match any names on possible family matches with names on the crew list! Bit of a needle in a haystack job, but it might just help me to find a match. I've been through ALL of J.N.B's offspring - all 16 of them!!! Not found anything that helps so far.
I've got Ada & G.H.P. on the 1911 census at 7 Montrose St, Bradford, with Elizabeth (my Mother) & Katherine. Ada's down as a woolcomber & George a labourer.
My Mother said her Dad fell in love with her Mum when she was working as a barmaid - her occupation on marriage cert is that of barmaid at the Airedale hotel, Otley road, Bradford.
No idea if they met in Liverpool or Bradford - my grandfather lived in Liverpool for part of his early life. His father was in the army & the family travelled around a lot - hence his birth in Colchester.
Well - I reckon I've written enough here to confuse us all even more!! If I manage to find any more info, I'll post it on the board, but I think for now you all know as much about my family as I do!!
Again, many thanks for all the help - it's VERY much appreciated!
Regards,
Kath
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Hi again - I'm still plugging away at Ada - I've been at it on & off for 2 years now!!
I've looked at the obituary columns in old local newspapers with no luck - my mother said they were very poor & couldn't afford a headstone for the grave, so possibly couldn't even afford to post in in the papers either. When mum went to put flowers on her mum's grave after she was demobbed from the WAAF it was very hard to find it - the cemetary was so overgrown. All been cleaned up now & most of the old graves have gone, so no clues there either.
I posted Joseph N Brown on my tree on genes ages ago in the hope he might come up in someone's hot matches & we could compare notes. I thought with all his offspring that SOMEONE must be going into their family history, but he doesn't appear to be on any of the trees on there.
Other than that - well - I'm stumped!!! I just can't find any definite trace of Ada before her marriage to George Paley in 1906.
Any suggestions would be very gratefully received!!
Thanks again for reading,
Regards,
Kath
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Hi Kath,
I can't find either Ada or Joseph Brown (postman) on the 1901 census.
Have tried many different combinations.
Viv
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I can't find either Ada or Joseph Brown (postman) on the 1901 census.
Have tried many different combinations.
Esther and Margaret Brown, Ada's younger sisters - were living with their older sister, Emma and her husband in 1901. Their surname was indexed as Tray, but should be Gray.
No sign of Joseph Brown though.
RG13/3478, Folio 136, Page 23
Marriage, Dec qtr 1895
Emma Brown
Matthew Gray
W. Derby, Vol 8b, page 653
Pels.
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Joseph N Brown, born London, Middlesex is with his new wife Alice and still living in West Derby in 1901 :
RG13/3492, Folio 149, Page 3.
He has five more children since 1891.
Pels.
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Then, found Joseph N Brown (Postman)in the 1901 Census with a completely different family.
see RG13, 3492, 149, 3
I can't find either Ada or Joseph Brown (postman) on the 1901 census.
Have tried many different combinations.
;D ;D ;D ;D
It took me ages to come up with that - and you'd already found it, on Saturday ! ;D ;D
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Never mind Pels,
it is always good to have things twice ;)
but I should have said:
I can't find Ada in the 1901 Census
nor Joseph Brown (caretaker) in the 1891 Census
;D ;D Got me occupations and census dates mixed up..
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Hi - I'm back again.
I've just been looking for Ada again - found 3 possibles on FindMyPast, but I don't have access to the full records at the moment.
There's an Ada B. in Toxteth Park, dob 1881; Ada B. in Camberwell dob 1881 (maybe she's gone to visit relatives in London?) & one in West Derby, dob 1880. Toxteth & West Derby are both in the area I understand my granny was born in. (My mum said Bootle)
I've found Joseph N.B. on the 1901 census on both genes & ancestry.com, but again I've no access to the full records at the moment.
I've tried searching the 1901 census by address for the pub she was living & working at when she married in 1906, but it doesn't come up at all, so no idea if she was there at the time of the census.
I keep trying to think of other ways to search, but I'm fast running short of ideas!
No good looking in parish registers for marriage details - George & Ada married at the register office.
I'm still wondering if Joseph spent most of his working life as a postman & just the last couple of years as a caretaker, so he put himself on the census as a retired postman. Maybe retired postman had a bit more kudos than a retired caretaker!!!
Oh well - maybe I'll find her one day - I'm a bit like a dog with a bone when I get going on something!! I'm just not going to give up until I find out for sure!! Fingers crossed!!
Many thanks for all your efforts - if you still want to keep on searching for me then I'm very glad of your help. You've been very helpful & patient so far though & I don't feel i can expect much more from you!
Regards,
Kath
PS - how do I add the smiley faces??? They don't appear on my messages when I click on them - guess I'm not doing it right!!! LOL!!
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Hi again - just been thinking - maybe Joseph's 2nd marriage caused a family rift - I notice that Esther & Margaret are living with Emma - all children from Joseph's 1st marriage to Elizabeth. Can anyone find an Ada Brown living independently from her family - maybe as a barmaid, domestic servant, lodger etc? Anywhere in the country would be a start- Bradford or Liverpool would be an even better lead!!
I think I'm clutching at straws now!! LOL!!
Thanks again,
Kath
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1901 Census
11 Ashley Street, West Derby
Joseph N Brown, 1851, Postman, London
Alice F Brown, 1866, London
James Brown, 1889, Liverpool
Albert Brown, 1892, Liverpool
Ethel Brown, 1895, Liverpool
George Brown, 1896, Liverpool
Joesph Brown, 1897, Liverpool
Alice Brown, 1899, Liverpool
I think the first two children might be from Alice's 1st marriage as they are born before Alice and Jospeh marry.
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I've just been looking for Ada again - found 3 possibles on FindMyPast, but I don't have access to the full records at the moment.
one in West Derby, dob 1880. Toxteth & West Derby are both in the area I understand my granny was born in.
The one born 1880 in Liverpool and living in West Derby, was living with her widowed father William. So that counts her out Kath ! :(
Pels.
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I've just been looking for Ada again - found 3 possibles on FindMyPast, but I don't have access to the full records at the moment.
There's an Ada B. in Toxteth Park, dob 1881; Ada B. in Camberwell dob 1881 (maybe she's gone to visit relatives in London?) & one in West Derby, dob 1880. Toxteth & West Derby are both in the area I understand my granny was born in. (My mum said Bootle)
I'm getting good at bringing bad tidings ! :(
Ada living in Camberwell was with her parents, Edward and Louisa. The other one was also living her parents, Edward and Ada !! Wonder where on earth she was ??
Pels.
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The only info I have on her is that she married George Henry Paley on 31 Mar 1906 in Bradford - her her age is given as 25, occupation barmaid & living at the Airedale hotel, Otley rd, Bradford.
Ada died in Bradford in 1935, age then given as 53. I've taken the age on death to be the right one - my mother & grandfather both lied on their wedding days!
Going back to the beginning. On her marriage certificate Ada gave her age as 25 in 1906. Therefore her year of birth should be about 1881 as you quite rightly said in your opening post.
The 1891 census gives Ada's age as 8 years, stating an 1883 birth, whereas in 1911 she's 27, therefore born in 1884.
Her death is registered giving her age as 35, born approx 1882.
I know you say you believe the death certificate to be correct, but you would expect the 1891 census to be fairly accurate because she hadn't been born in 1881. Sarah, her sister was 10mths old when that census was taken. Wondering if this could be Ada's birth, it should fit in with the 1891 census with it being in the Dec qtr - and her age at death :
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Birth, Dec qtr 1882
Ada Brown
W. Derby, Vol 8b, page 545
~~~~~~~~~
In 1881 the family were living in Everton, which is in the West Derby registration district. I feel quietly confident about that birth, please don't dash my hopes ! ;D ;D
Pels.:)
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Pels, you have been busy :D
I do hope that you have not been looking in vain.
I'll keep my fingers crossed :)
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Hoping something will eventually fit together Viv ! :)
Here's the marriage for Joseph N Brown :
Marriage : 4th September 1873
Joseph Norman Brown
Approx birth year : 1848
Aged 25 years
Name of Spouse : Elizabeth Kendall
Father's Name: William Henry Brown
Father's Name of Spouse : William Kendall
Parish Church of St Barnabas, Liverpool
Pels.
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I've found this ! :) :)
Baptism Date : 2nd October 1882
Ada Brown,
Parents :
Joseph Norman Brown and Elizabeth Brown
Abode : Exley Street
Trade or Profession : Letter Carrier
Birth date : 11th September
Parish Church of St Peter, Liverpool
Pels.
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If this is your family, which I'm really hoping it is :
Christening : 12th January 1851
Joseph Norman Brown
Birth Date, approx 1850
Names of Parents:
William Henry Brown
Sarah Elizabeth Brown
Father's profession : Joiner
Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
In the borough of Tower Hamlets
Pels.
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Hi all - you have been busy!!!
I think you must be right - I am on the right track with Joseph the postman. Really glad about that - maybe I won't have to delete half of my tree after all !!! It was finding the Joseph B, school caretaker on the census that put the wind up me!!
Bit of a coincidence - 2 Joseph B's in the same city at the same time & both with a daughter named Ada.
I'm feeling a bit more reassured now, but would still love to be able to find a little bit of info that told me for definite I'm on the right track.
Also - a couple of niggling bits of doubt still there!
On all the birth records - his own & those of ALL his numerous offspring & also all census returns I've found he's Joseph Norman B, or at least Joseph N B, but on Ada's marriage cert, it's signed Joseph Brown. His occupation is that of school caretaker, whereas on the 1911 census, he's a retired postman. No mention of a school caretaker. This has been nagging away at me for the last 2 years - I've searched & searched & still come back to him every time!!
I keep hoping if I post enough messages that I'll come across someone else who has him on their tree - he's not on any of the trees I've searched so far though. I'll keep on trying - you'd think with all his offspring that SOMEONE would be looking into their family history!!
Again, many, many thanks for all your efforts!
Regards,
Kath
PS - The James Brown that you found was from Alice's 1st marriage - he was born James E. Dalrymple. I'm wondering if he could be the uncle my mother talked about as being lost with the Lusitania. He's the only name on the crew list that I've found that ties in with my tree, but it's too common a name to make the assumption.
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PS - The James Brown that you found was from Alice's 1st marriage - he was born James E. Dalrymple. I'm wondering if he could be the uncle my mother talked about as being lost with the Lusitania. He's the only name on the crew list that I've found that ties in with my tree, but it's too common a name to make the assumption.
James Dalyrmple, Refrigeration Greaser - wasn't lost on the Lusitania Kath, he was saved ! :-\
Pels.
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James Dalyrmple, Refrigeration Greaser - wasn't lost on the Lusitania Kath, he was saved ! :-\
But you already knew that :
Hi _ I've just come across the site while looking for a crew list for the Lusitania when she sank.
I'm trying to find my mother's "favourite uncle" who she always said was lost when the ship went down. I don't have a definite name, but think it's possibly a James E. Dalrymple. I found a James Dalrymple on a crew list online, but it appears he survived. I don't suppose there's a list of deaths related to the sinking, even if they died shortly aftrewards? According to the info I've seen, people were listed as survivors, so long as they were pulled out of the water alive, even though they may have died on the quayside.
Other possible names are Wlliam H. Brown; Albert; George or Joseph Brown, Benjamin; Henry or James Paley, but I think James Dalrymple is the most likley name.
Fingers crossed sombody out there can offer a bit of info!!
Pels.
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Wow Pels, congratulations on finding the baptism of Ada Brown, b. Liverpool with parents. (Where did you find it - Family Search?)
Also the birth reg you found earlier fits in with the time of the baptism.
Kath,
As for Joseph N Brown being a postman, and Ada's marriage cert. having him just as Joseph Brown with occupation school caretaker (maybe she didn't know that he had a second name nor which occupation he had)
- if that is bothering you too much,then I would suggest getting the birth cert. for the Ada Brown that Pels has found.
Might put your mind at rest and then you can get on with the next part of the search.
Viv
P.S.: As to the information that your mother's favourite uncle was lost when the Lusitania went down, it might be a twist of what really happened. Just that he was on the Lusitania but survived, as Pels as said.
My mother always thought that one of her uncles served on the HMS Hood and was lost when it went down. Turned out that none of her uncles werved in the navy (as far as I can find out at the moment) ;D
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Hi again - WELL - yippee!!!!
I've just had a contact out of the blue from a genes member asking for info on James Dalrymple!!! Again - YIPPEE!!!!
She doesn't seem have quite as much detail as I have on the family, but seems she has a few family members to ask for info......
So - fingers crossed!
She also seems to think we're on the right track with Joseph the postie.
I'm wondering if the James D on the Lusitania is the same James D as I have on my tree, as he died very young. Maybe some illness due to the sinking?? Maybe my Mum's memory
wan't quite so good as she thought it was & he lived for a few years after the boat went down!! I'm sure she said he drowned, but then I was young when my mother died - it's possible that he was ill & died later of some complication due to the sinking.
I've just sent a message to ask this new contact what she knows about James D & I'm waiting for a reply with bated breath!!!
Also - I thought a bit of a recap on my Ada might just be useful - if you're still happy to go on searching that is! I'm still very curious to know where she was on the 1901 census.
Here goes:-
Ada B. born Liverpool, father's name Joseph Brown,school caretaker.
Married George Henry Paley(age 30) 31 March 1906 in Bradford.
Occupation barmaid & living at the Airedale Hotel, Otley Rd Bradford. Ada's age 25.
1911 census family living at 7 Montrose st, Bradford(Manningham subsection)Ada aged 27, George41. Daughters Katherine age 4 & Elizabeth age 3. There was also another daughter - Annie, born 1909, but she died shortly after birth.
Ada died 1935, age 53, in Bradford.
Well - that's about the sum total of info I have on Ada. I know the ages don't add up, but at least I'm sure that all this really IS my Ada!!!
Again, many thanks for your help!
Regards,
Kath
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Hi Kath,
glad to hear that you have a contact that might be able to help you even further.
As I mentioned in one of my former posts, I could not find Ada in the 1901 census - whatever I put in. Maybe your new contact knows more.
You cannot always go with ages given - as you say yourself, Ada was 25 in 1906 when she married and then in 1911 (5 years later) she gave her birth as 27!
I really think you should buy the brith cert. that Pels found.
Viv
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Hi again - I've heard from the contact on genes & she sounds as mystified as I am with this mixed up family!!
She's descended from James Dalrymple, so on Joseph's 2nd wife's side of things. Still - we're hoping that between us we can help each other to fill in a few gaps.
I've just found an Ada Brown, born Liverpool 1881 on the 1901 census in Camberwell, Middlesex - might just be a possibility for my granny. It's on Ancestry & familysearch, but as I said before, I've no access to the full census at the moment. There's also an Ada May Brown,dob 1884, barmaid, in Middlesex, on FindMyPast but it doesn't state place of birth.
Joseph Norman seems to be in Liverpool in 1901 on the census return (FindMyPast) Having a middle name makes it much easier to narrow things down even if I can't see the full report!!
I don't think I mentioned what got me back into doing my tree again - it's something I normally do in the winter. I'll tell you so long as you promise not to laugh!!!
A couple of weeks ago I watched Who Do You Think You are? with June Brown. When she mentioned having connections with the Mile End Road my ears pricked up!! I thought Mile End.... Brown...... Mid 1900's.....
So... I contacted her on the off-chance there may just be some connection. STOP LAUGHING!!!!! I made you promise!!!! She got back to me very quickly via her daughter (not being very internet savvy) but apparently she's not done much on the Brown side - only knows as far as her parents, around 1900. It was worth a go though - I'll try anyone that looks as though they might have a connection - even Dot Cotton!!!
Well - on that note, I'll say Bye for now & carry on searching!!
Regards,
Kath
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Kath,
have to dissapoint you once again.
The Ada Brown, b.1881 in Liverpool in the 1901 Census is the daughter of the family. Parents Edward b. Marylebone 1848 and Louisa Brown. Brothers Frank b. 1878 Liverpool and Albert b. 1883 Liverpool
Viv
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Ada May Brown, barmaid, was born 1884 in Holloway, London .
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Hi Blodwen - Thanks for looking!
You must be fed up with me & my Ada by now!!
I reckon I've been on the right track with Joseph the postie all along! It just threw me when I searched (for the umpteenth time!) for anything new on Joseph & co & found the Joseph B, school caretaker in Bradford. Bit of a coincidence, 2 Joseph Browns & both with a daughter named Ada & a Bradford connection!!
Still don't know if my Joseph B was a caretaker in Bradford, Liverpool or Outer Mongolia though! I don't suppose I'm EVER going to find out that one now!
Thanks very much to you & Pels for all your efforts - it's all VERY much appreciated. You deserve a big hug & a bunch of flowers for it all!! Wish I could offer more than just thanks!
Bye,
Kath