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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lesanne on Thursday 25 August 11 20:18 BST (UK)
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.. Continuation of hunt for Williams in Montgomeryshire.....
Last page part 1
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,551037.200.html
Map of Berriew area and info from SP on Charles
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,551037.msg4043828.html#msg4043828
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I would really like to fill the great big gap in my Turner tree..(bapt, birth place and parents, census pre '71 etc)
Frances Mary Ann nee Williams (Gt Gt Grannie) and of (nephew) Charles Williams
Marriage....
Thomas(48yr wid) and Frances(32yr spin) married at Boyne Hill, All Saints. October 1867
Father.. Richard Williams. Coachman.
Wits.. James Marsh/March/Marsk & Eliza Wilson ?
1871...Boyn Hill, Cox Green, Maidenhead, Berkshire.
TURNER, Thomas Head M 53 Berkshire
TURNER, Frances M Wife F 36 Montgomeryshire
TURNER, Sophia E Daughter F 13 Middlesex
TURNER, Mary S Daughter F 12 Middlesex
TURNER, Lewis J Son M 5 Berkshire
TURNER, Harriett E Daughter F 2 Berkshire
TURNER, Albert J Son M 1 Berkshire
WILLIAMS, Charles Nephew M 15 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Esther M Step-Daughter F 12 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Jane Step-Daughter F 11 Montgomeryshire (marries Finch & Rance)
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Just bookmarking for tonight
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So what happened to Esther M Williams from 1871 above... we dont have anything for her after 1871.....
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..Haven't seen anything for Esther with Turners.
I was looking at the family of Weaver.
Esther nurse child with them. 1861.
1851. they are in Llandyssil.
Next door a William and Jane Williams who have twins. (Frances and Thomas had twins 1870)
1841. In Llandyssil
Thomas 'N'
Jane 'Y'
Possibly her mother next but one. Mary Lloyd and Elizabeth.
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I have been trying to chase what happens to Esther, and seem to be stumbling into an awful lot of dead ends and brick walls!!
There is one family though which I can't find after 1881 to 'kill off' -
RG11/2478/83/5
Edward Scully Head Mar 29 Painter and decorator bn Bristol
Esther Scully Wife Mar 24 bn Montgomeryshire
Edward Scully son 7 bn Bristol
Bertie Scully son 3 bn Bristol
William Scully son 4mnths bn Bristol
I checked for a birth for William Scully, and could find no corresponding birth in Bristol. There obviously were loads of Williams bn in Bristol, but none registered as Williams. There was a William Turner though :-\
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Morning.. :) thank you very much for your time and trouble.
.. Will our Gt Gt Grandchildren have all this hunting to do...
I'm staying with these 2 children that bapt in Forden workhouse as well.
Esther we have almost sure on that 1861 H of I entry.
Jane.. 1861 Base child..with Griffiths Thomas and Elizabeth in Llangynod. This looks a bit dodgy.
2yrs is nothing like a baby under 9mnths.
Visitor in house, Ann Roberts ???
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Les Frances/Mary Ann's children or possible children.
Possible Elizabeth with grandparents?
George?
Charles?
Esther
Jane
Lewis?
Then Turner children born after the marriage.
So what proof if any do you have for them and what proof if any do you think is out there ie. certificates?
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still tagging along
i can't see any scully *bert* born 1875-1880 :-\
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i lied
Births Mar 1879
Scully Albert George Bristol 6a 29
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I think there was a death for Bertie Scully in 1882, so see if you can kill Albert off!
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Les Frances/Mary Ann's children or possible children.
Possible Elizabeth with grandparents?
George?
Charles?
Esther
Jane
Lewis?
Then Turner children born after the marriage.
So what proof if any do you have for them and what proof if any do you think is out there ie. certificates?
... oo Jaywit... can u post up this 'Elizabeth' info plz... Have you found parents for FMA ??
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Les I think way back there was an Elizabeth down as grandaughter, you may have discounted that Williams family though, I'll have a look.
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I would really like to fill the great big gap in my Turner tree..(bapt, birth place and parents, census pre '71 etc)
Frances Mary Ann nee Williams (Gt Gt Grannie) and of (nephew) Charles Williams
Marriage....
Thomas(48yr wid) and Frances(32yr spin) married at Boyne Hill, All Saints. October 1867
Father.. Richard Williams. Coachman.
Wits.. James Marsh/March/Marsk & Eliza Wilson ?
1871...Boyn Hill, Cox Green, Maidenhead, Berkshire.
TURNER, Thomas Head M 53 Berkshire
TURNER, Frances M Wife F 36 Montgomeryshire
TURNER, Sophia E Daughter F 13 Middlesex
TURNER, Mary S Daughter F 12 Middlesex
TURNER, Lewis J Son M 5 Berkshire
TURNER, Harriett E Daughter F 2 Berkshire
TURNER, Albert J Son M 1 Berkshire
WILLIAMS, Charles Nephew M 15 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Esther M Step-Daughter F 12 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Jane Step-Daughter F 11 Montgomeryshire (marries Finch & Rance)
IM still trying to find Esther M in 1881.... Have you looked into these wits at the marriage above Les?
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I think we had a little 'tickle'... Wits.. James Marsh/March/Marsk & Eliza Wilson ?
Charles is nephew... so NOT a son/stepson... a child of a sibling...
As he is Williams from Montgom.. I suggest he is of a FMA sib
So the birth cert is either wrong or we need that father or mother
to be in a census in Wales with a parent of her's.
John Williams
Ellen Williams formerly Evans
Marriages Mar 1853
Bangor 11b 705
Evans Ellen
JONES Robert
WILLIAMS Jane
WILLIAMS John
Marriages Dec 1856
Carnarvon 11b 860
Evans Ellen
Prichard Robert
Williams John
Williams Mary
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Think this is the marriage of Wit James....
Apr-May-Jun 1869 James Marsh to Sarah Wingrove at Cookham
I followed them through census and could find no link with FMA ::)
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1861...
Charles Williams abt 1856 Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Son of John ,Ellen.
Pool, Montgomeryshire
... RG9 4258 50 61 ...... Need some help here plz....I can't see 'em on this ref!!!
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1861...
Charles Williams abt 1856 Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Son of John ,Ellen.
Pool, Montgomeryshire
... RG9 4258 50 61 ...... Need some help here plz....I can't see 'em on this ref!!!
This is the correct reference which shows the page: RG 9/4258/49/60 but as I said earlier this week, that Charles is with his family in 1871 RG10/5625/2/3.
He is a bricklayer. He is married with a family in 1881.
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Les From Part 1 Elizabeth Williams grandaughter.
Re: Lesannes Scavenger Hunt 23/8/11 ... Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #115 on: Tuesday 23 August 11 20:48 BST (UK) »
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oh snap - comming at it from a different direction I have come up with the same family group as Spider
I was looking for a likely Richard to be the one in the memorial card in 1878 as it now can't be Richard of Richard and esther who died before 1871. So I went looking for the area of the cottage in Pennant to see sho was there in 1871, it is hard to be deffinate as it's not named but that household is in the very close area
I found Richard the elder in 1861 same area
Richd Williams 59 born LLanwllywil
Mary Williams 49 born Chirbury Shrops
Richd Williams 8 son
Emma Williams 6 dau
Elizth Williams 9 grandau
John Edwards 25 stepson
So it looks like a second marriage for Richard
DebbieG
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1861...
Charles Williams abt 1856 Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Son of John ,Ellen.
Pool, Montgomeryshire
... RG9 4258 50 61 ...... Need some help here plz....I can't see 'em on this ref!!!
This is the correct reference which shows the page: RG 9/4258/49/60 but as I said earlier this week, that Charles is with his family in 1871 RG10/5625/2/3.
He is a bricklayer. He is married with a family in 1881.
From first part:
Right - Lloyd Charles Williams
1901: RG13; Piece: 1453; Folio: 66; Page: 7
1891: RG12; Piece: 1029; Folio 11; Page 16
At the moment, no sign of Lloyd prior to 1891,
1881: Possible Charles in Lancashire RG11; Piece: 3805; Folio: 96; Page: 50 (as found by Jaywit) unmarried provisions dealer, bn Montgomery
1871: No Lloyd, but a few Charles candidates (inc the one with Frances and THomas)
1861: ?RG9; Piece: 4251; Folio: 21; Page: 3
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Stupid question I know, but do you have the marriage cert for Lloyd Charles Williams to Mary Anne? Does that give John as his father?
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... good question..thought I had.. but it's his sons cert.
They married in Sept 1888 Brentford 3a 124... would that be in London Parishes maybe.
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... good question..thought I had.. but it's his sons cert.
They married in Sept 1888 Brentford 3a 124... would that be in London Parishes maybe.
No it's not sadly.
All this is so difficult. If you have his son's certificate, then at some point, you have looked at the possibility that Lloyd Charles Williams is the Charles who is with Frances Turner.
I can understand the need to re-examine information when there is no definite conclusion but it looks as though the same stuff is being churned out as 'new' in each thread with little reference to what has been found before.
There seems to be no structure to the search or evaluation of what is known/or needed based on findings.
I do understand your frustrations as there are no real leads to connect the various people. What have you got recorded already re Lloyd Charles Williams?
heywood
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Heywood I have to agree.
We need to know what proof Lesanne or other family members have about the various people, for instance Jane can be traced. Has anyone got one of her marriage certificates? If so who does she say her father was?
This is the sort of information we need.
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Hello Heywood and Jaywit et al... ;)
#I only have bapt's for an Esther and a Jane at Forden workhouse, House of Industry. To a Mary Williams servant. That's it, no more info.
#They correspond to the girls with Thomas and Frances as 1871 census shows.
# The Charles (nephew) I thought, might link to a possible sibling to Frances.
Hence this Scavenger pre 1871 for Frances MA and Charles.
The LLoyd Charles Williams is on another Turner/Norris cousin's tree.
It seems now to be coincidental.
Another coincidence is the other Gt Grannie is also Kate Williams.. hails from High Wycombe.
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Jumping in late..I will print part 1 and try to catch up..good thing I will be back at the cottage..had no idea so much would happen so fast.....silly me!!
Hi to all myftreffef and mifterf..its the Canadian contingent checking in!
:-) :) kiddo
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Hello Heywood and Jaywit et al... ;)
#I only have bapt's for an Esther and a Jane at Forden workhouse, House of Industry. To a Mary Williams servant. That's it, no more info.
#They correspond to the girls with Thomas and Frances as 1871 census shows.
# The Charles (nephew) I thought, might link to a possible sibling to Frances.
Hence this Scavenger pre 1871 for Frances MA and Charles.
the girls are listed as step daughter and therefore should be step daughter / daughter in law / adopted child of the head of the household who is Frances M husband so DFrances does appear to be Frances Mary as you have the chirstenings to confirm this
her marrige gives her father as Richard a coachman we need to find Richard Williams Coachman as near to the marriage date as possible.
we don' t know where Richard was from but we think he died in Berriew
are there any Williams witnesses to the marriage? (i know this has been covered)
Esther we found in the previous census it doesnt seem to be any connection between esther and the familes she is with but has this been explored?
have you got the entry / discharge for forden workhouse ? does it survive?
Charles should be nephew to the head, did he have a sister who married a Williams ?
have you found Frances bp.? d/o Richard circa 1835 montogmeryshire ? of course she could be under Mary
we only now he was a coachman when Frances married so Richard may not have been a coachman before this
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We are going round in circles and not discovering anything new.
Now Esther last seen on the 1871 census. Has there been a thread looking for her?
If not then that would at least be a new angle.
Check Esther Williams marriages anywhere in England or Wales after 1874 ( when she was 16)
Check 1881 for any female any name born Forden or Berriew 1858 +/- 1 who doesn't appear on earlier census returns.
That would do for starters.
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I would really like to fill the great big gap in my Turner tree..(bapt, birth place and parents, census pre '71 etc)
Frances Mary Ann nee Williams (Gt Gt Grannie) and of (nephew) Charles Williams
Why are you looking for Esther and Jane?
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Charles should be nephew to the head, did he have a sister who married a Williams ?
he in this case means the Head of the Household ?
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I would really like to fill the great big gap in my Turner tree..(bapt, birth place and parents, census pre '71 etc)
Frances Mary Ann nee Williams (Gt Gt Grannie) and of (nephew) Charles Williams
Why are you looking for Esther and Jane?
Because I think you have exhausted every possibility without buying loads of certificates for Frances/Mary Ann and Charles so you look for other family members and see if things like marriage certificates giving witnesses and father's names might just give any clue.
You know it isn't straight forward so sometimes you have to go down other avenues to get back to where you want to be.
You have to be prepared to look at the bigger picture with a puzzle like this.
I wondered about getting birth certificates for Esther and Jane, OK they probably won't be of any help if Mary Ann registered the births but what if say her mother registered one of the births? A long shot but you reach a point where to have to consider everything.
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1871...Boyn Hill, Cox Green, Maidenhead, Berkshire.
TURNER, Thomas Head M 53 Berkshire
TURNER, Frances M Wife F 36 Montgomeryshire
TURNER, Sophia E Daughter F 13 Middlesex
TURNER, Mary S Daughter F 12 Middlesex
TURNER, Lewis J Son M 5 Berkshire
TURNER, Harriett E Daughter F 2 Berkshire
TURNER, Albert J Son M 1 Berkshire
WILLIAMS, Charles Nephew M 15 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Esther M Step-Daughter F 12 Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Jane Step-Daughter F 11 Montgomeryshire (marries Finch & Rance)
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So does Thomas have a sister that marries a Williams boy?
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The way they are listed also makes me wonder about the relationships.
I see Charles is listed before the Williams girls illegitimate children of Mary Williams
And he is nephew you would have thought they [the girls] would have come first having the closest relationship but obviously not so did they just list Charles first because he was a male? It would seem not because he [Thomas] has daughters listed pre his son Lewis. Has Frances added the name Frances to distance herself from herself as Mary Williams that had illegitimate children? Is this why they are listed last maybe Thomas had problems accepting them into the family.
Is Frances the mother of Lewis who seems to have been born out of wedlock this would then give you an inkling as to when she arrived in Berkshire.
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It may be a very tedious and long job but I think you are going to have to look at ALL the Charles Williams born Montgomersyshire the same year +/- say 5 years as your Charles (and possibly further afield) in the 1861 census and match them to the Charles Williams on the 1871 census and also to deaths there should be some you are unable to match and these are genuine possibilities to be your Charles. You should then repeat this process as much as possible to limit the matches further
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1861
MERIDITH, Charles Head Widower M 60 1801 Solicitor Knighton Radnorshire
MERIDITH, Fanny Daughter Unmarried F 25 1836 Bloomsbury
MERIDITH, Henry Son Unmarried M 7 1854 Paddington
JOHN MEREDITH WILLIAMS of Welshpool and
born 1776
admitted a burgess of Welshpool,
1804 (married, died 17th June 1806, aged 30, leaving two sons
John Meredith Williams
### Richard Williams. Admitted a burgess of Welshpool. Attorney.
Rev. JOHN MEREDITH WILLIAMS of Plas Dolanog
and Welshpool, born 1805 curate of Berriew.
sworn a burgess of Welshpool, married Miss Bright
of Totterton, and left one son .
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29th Jan 1830 Illegite
John s/o
Richard Meredith Williams (Attorney)
Mary Thomas (servant)
Montgomery Welchpool
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1841 Welsh Pool
MEREDITH, Thomas M 45 1796
MEREDITH, Felicia F 45 1796
MEREDITH, Thomas M 12 1829
MEREDITH, Mary F 10 1831
MEREDITH, Jane F5 1836
WILLIAMS, Thomas M 85 1756
WILLIAMS, Mary F 65 1776
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but what is the connection between those you just posted Les and the 1871 census people
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At the moment..
I'm looking at Frances Mary Ann, wife to Charles Meredith (solicitor) from Knighton. (Not far away)
The Meredith Williams family that seem to be in and around Berriew... and attorney/curate/ etc.
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But Fanny says she was born in Bloomsbury and if Richard Meredith Williams was an attorney would he become a coachman ?
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Where did Frances Mary Ann (that is married to Charles Meredith) come from?
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1861
MERIDITH, Charles Head Widower M 60 1801 Solicitor Knighton Radnorshire
MERIDITH, Fanny Daughter Unmarried F 25 1836 Bloomsbury
MERIDITH, Henry Son Unmarried M 7 1854 Paddington
1851 Charles is a widower, with daughter Fanny Spencer (bn St Georges, Bloomsbury). HO107; Piece: 1467; Folio: 307; Page: 11
Presumably then we are looking at 2 marriages and 2 deaths of wives
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Bringing forward from the first part so that we don't duplicate efforts:
Charles Meredith bc1806 and Frances Mary Meredith ..
Have Fanny Spencer Meredith born Nov 1835 bapt 1836 St George Bloomsbury, Torrington Square.
father Solicitor and another child Charles.
1841 Charles 35 'N'
Frances 25 'N'
Charles 21/2 'Y'
(where's Fanny S) ?
1847 Frances Mary dies I.O.W. 1847 aged 32..
1851 St geo Bloomsbury
Charles Meredith 51 wid solicitor
Fanny Spencer 15 daug
1881 Wandsworth
...Charles 80 wid solicitor...
.. born Knighton Radnorshire
I can only find a Fanny Spencer Meredith with Joseph and Isabelle.
Father didn't die...
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1861
MERIDITH, Charles Head Widower M 60 1801 Solicitor Knighton Radnorshire
MERIDITH, Fanny Daughter Unmarried F 25 1836 Bloomsbury
MERIDITH, Henry Son Unmarried M 7 1854 Paddington
1851 Charles is a widower, with daughter Fanny Spencer (bn St Georges, Bloomsbury). HO107; Piece: 1467; Folio: 307; Page: 11
Presumably then we are looking at 2 marriages and 2 deaths of wives
Henry Hills Meredith ch 26th May 1853 to Charles and Caroline Meredith (solicitor) at Paddington, Holy Trinity
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Where did Frances Mary Ann (that is married to Charles Meredith) come from?
Possible from Pallots -
Charles Meredith p. St Giles in the Fields mar Frances Mary Mills with consent of guardians 11th Nov 1834 (Chelmsford, Essex)
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Fanny Spencer O'Bryan Taylor lives until the 1911 census...........
Not sure what this means for 'our' research..........in fact, no longer know who or what I am researching!
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Hello spidermonkey,
At one time scavenger hunts were 'along the lines of' posting anything that looked possible.. :)
..then, whoever, would have the uneviable jobby of sorting thru once the scavenger hunt was over.
We know that Esther and Jane have all the posts that could be found via internet. They can only be found via paper. Thomas and his children from Sarah & Frances have mostly been paired up or died.
Frances and Charles on the other hand, had slipped thru any real digging.
I have every Richard from Montgomeryshire and surrounds in 1871... excluded those in 1881.. then worked back, using 1861 etc.. obviously, it's only the ones I'm able to find, there are a few missing from census, for whatever reason.
Knowing Frances Mary Ann and Charles were in Bray 1871 and both from Montgomeryshire. Any 'scavenged very thin scrap' is worth a look.
Thanks for finding that last bit and bringing it forward. I didn't get chance today. :)
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Just butting in to let you know that the new hunt is up....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,552322.0.
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I have every Richard from Montgomeryshire and surrounds in 1871... excluded those in 1881.. then worked back, using 1861 etc.. obviously, it's only the ones I'm able to find, there are a few missing from census, for whatever reason.
Knowing Frances Mary Ann and Charles were in Bray 1871 and both from Montgomeryshire. Any 'scavenged very thin scrap' is worth a look.
Thanks for finding that last bit and bringing it forward. I didn't get chance today. :)
we don't actually know for sure that Richard was alive in 1871 :-\
i really think its a case of finding Charles on 1861 which means a long haul
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At one time scavenger hunts were 'along the lines of' posting anything that looked possible.. :)
Is that not rather a risky way to research- it could lead to several wrong and winding roads :-\ I would have thought it was vital to eliminate the wrong leads, especially if that info was then used in further searches. They could all become based on a false premise without anyone being any the wiser.
then, whoever, would have the uneviable jobby of sorting thru once the scavenger hunt was over.
Is it not better to sort and evaluate information as it appears, in order to eliminate the wrong leads/red herrings. Since you are still searching for the Turners (I think) does this mean that all the stuff that was found on the 8 parts of your previous hunt was not useful or led nowhere?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,276294.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,276890.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,277676.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,278684.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,279571.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,281880.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,344604.0.html
As Spidermonkey said yesterday, we don't want to duplicate efforts. ;)
Nell
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Hey, Les!
Sorry if I've missed anything skipping ahead from page 6, but I believe I still have the PR film for Windsor at my FHC. Do you need me to look for anything there?
Cheers!