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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: mikeyr62 on Sunday 21 August 11 16:17 BST (UK)
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Can anybody help me with this one?
I am trying to trace my great great grandmother.
She was born MARGARET LORKING and according to census returns was born c. 1817 in Stratford, Essex (although some census returns show her as being born in alternative locations). This is the spelling that is is shown on my great grandfather's birth certifificate although, I guess that it could actually be spelt differently and I have tried all variations on searches.
She married my great great grandfather William Tapley in Apr Qtr 1842 and the marriage was registered St James Westminster, London (Vol.1 Page 111) - I do not know the church they married in.
They moved to Leighton Buzzard and subsequently to Luton and had a number of children.
She was committed to The Three Counties Asylum in Bedfordshire at at some point after the 1881 census, and subsequently died and was buried there in 1895 (on the 1891 census she is merely listed as MT and is classified as a lunatic).
I cannot find her birth anywhere - I have tried ancestry and familysearch but can find nothing.
Any help would be much appreciated in trying to put some meat on the bones that I currently have.
Mike ???
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Hi Mike
Had a look for Margaret for you but at the moment cannot find anyone called Lorking, that means a Margaret or any others. Could have been mistranscribed
from Larking but no Lorking.
I did find a marriage for a William Topley to a Margaret in 1842
William Topley married Margaret Smithers on 31st January 1842.
St Marys London.
If your birth date for Margaret is correct she would be 25 which was
a few years over the marrying age so maybe she had been married before ???
regards Sandymc
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Do you have the Marriage Certificicate for Wm and Margaret in 1842 . If so what is her Father's name
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me again
BMD Marriage June qtr 1842 ref St James Westminster 1. 111
Wm Tapley and Margaret Lorking
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Could have been mistranscribed from Larking but no Lorking.
Possibly, but it is quite plainly written as LORKING on my great grandfather's birth certificate.
Thanks anyway.
Mike :D
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Do you have the Marriage Certificicate for Wm and Margaret in 1842 . If so what is her Father's name
I don't have it as yet. It is on my list of certificates to buy but at present, money is very tight :(
Mike
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me again
BMD Marriage June qtr 1842 ref St James Westminster 1. 111
Wm Tapley and Margaret Lorking
Thanks. This is what I said in my original posting.
Mike :D
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Hi
There are other Lorkings on censuses giving a birthplace of Stratford
e.g.
1851 census HO107 1768 folio 71
High Street West Ham
George Lorking 29 Head Married Tailor Stratford Essex
Harriet Lorking 25 Wife Married Wennington Essex
Harriet Lorking 1 Daughter Stratford Essex
Infant Lorking 3 days Son Stratford Essex
plus 1 apprentice and 1 nurse
On the 1861 census there is also William Lorking aged 41 a leather cloth painter/silk printer (on 1851 census) and his family in West Ham.
The two brothers were with their parents on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 323/12 folio 7
Near the turnpike West Ham Essex
William Lorkin 45 Tailor not born in county
William Lorkin 20 Silk printer born in county
George Lorkin 15 Tailor born in county
Peter Lorkin 13 born in county
Margarit Lorkin 45 not born in county
Emma Lorkin 6 born in county
adult ages, those over 15, are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
William junior's marriage
27th December 1841 Holy Trinity Minories Liberty of the Tower of London
William Lorking Full Age Bachelor Printer Spital Square William Lorking Tailor
Hannah Pigrome Full Age Spinster Spital Square John Pigrome Clerk in the West Middlesex Docks
Both signed
Witnesses Charles Ashbourn, Margaret Lorking and Caroline Pigrome
Margaret Lorking senior was with her son William in West Ham on the 1861 census. She was aged 65, a widower born Guildford Surrey.
Deaths Dec 1872
Lorking Margaret 82 W. Ham 4a 31
The 1842 marriage for Margaret Lorking will confirm whether her father was William and a tailor. You can obtain her asylum records from Bedfordshire Record Office. Doctors of the period often made some reference to family member/s in asylum patients' records since they were often interested in proving a genetic link, though the general held belief at the time from the male medical profession and society in general was that women were weaker of mind.
The Lorking baptisms may have taken place at All Saints West Ham (if Anglican) as this could be to early for an Anglican church at Stratford. Though the orginal registers are held at Essex Record Office (you will be able to view them - for a price by the end of the month
see this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html
The London borough of Newham archives which hold microfilm copies of the registers in the area have also indexed them.
http://www.newham.gov.uk/EntertainmentandLeisure/Libraries/LibraryReferenceServices/ArchivesAndLocalHistory/Servicesatthearchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm
Sometimes if you can't go, at least at present through the direct line, looking for siblings can help.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
There are other Lorkings on censuses giving a birthplace of Stratford
e.g.
1851 census HO107 1768 folio 71
High Street West Ham
George Lorking 29 Head Married Tailor Stratford Essex
Harriet Lorking 25 Wife Married Wennington Essex
Harriet Lorking 1 Daughter Stratford Essex
Infant Lorking 3 days Son Stratford Essex
plus 1 apprentice and 1 nurse
On the 1861 census there is also William Lorking aged 41 a leather cloth painter/silk printer (on 1851 census) and his family in West Ham.
The two brothers were with their parents on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 323/12 folio 7
Near the turnpike West Ham Essex
William Lorkin 45 Tailor not born in county
William Lorkin 20 Silk printer born in county
George Lorkin 15 Tailor born in county
Peter Lorkin 13 born in county
Margarit Lorkin 45 not born in county
Emma Lorkin 6 born in county
adult ages, those over 15, are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
William junior's marriage
27th December 1841 Holy Trinity Minories Liberty of the Tower of London
William Lorking Full Age Bachelor Printer Spital Square William Lorking Tailor
Hannah Pigrome Full Age Spinster Spital Square John Pigrome Clerk in the West Middlesex Docks
Both signed
Witnesses Charles Ashbourn, Margaret Lorking and Caroline Pigrome
Margaret Lorking senior was with her son William in West Ham on the 1861 census. She was aged 65, a widower born Guildford Surrey.
Deaths Dec 1872
Lorking Margaret 82 W. Ham 4a 31
The 1842 marriage for Margaret Lorking will confirm whether her father was William and a tailor. You can obtain her asylum records from Bedfordshire Record Office. Doctors of the period often made some reference to family member/s in asylum patients' records since they were often interested in proving a genetic link, though the general held belief at the time from the male medical profession and society in general was that women were weaker of mind.
The Lorking baptisms may have taken place at All Saints West Ham (if Anglican) as this could be to early for an Anglican church at Stratford. Though the orginal registers are held at Essex Record Office (you will be able to view them - for a price by the end of the month
see this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html
The London borough of Newham archives which hold microfilm copies of the registers in the area have also indexed them.
http://www.newham.gov.uk/EntertainmentandLeisure/Libraries/LibraryReferenceServices/ArchivesAndLocalHistory/Servicesatthearchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm
Sometimes if you can't go, at least at present through the direct line, looking for siblings can help.
Regards
Valda
Hi Valda,
Thank you for this. It is brilliant and gives me a lot to think about - I have been unable to find any Lorkings in the censuses so far in the right area, so you've achieved far more than me :D
It is interesting to note that Margaret's son-in-law - Thomas Bigg Tirebuck - died in West Ham in 1925. I wonder if he was visiting his wife's relatives (his wife was Margaret's daughter Elizabeth Tapley)
I wonder if the witness (Margaret) at William's wedding was my Margaret?
As soon as I have the money, I'll buy the wedding certificate just to see who Margaret's father was.
Not sure if the family were Anglican or not. By the time they got to Margaret's son - William John (my great grandfather) - they were Catholic but not sure why (may have been to do with his wife!) William's brother was a Baptist or Methodist minister if my memory serves me correctly.
Many, many thanks for this.
Mike :D ??? :D
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Hi
The surname on census indexes is often transcribed as Larking or Laking.
Regards
Valda
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1861 census , Stratford
William Lorking aged 41 b Stratford
Adaline Lorking aged 18 daughter b Stratford
if this is William who married Hannah Pigrome, there is no sign of Hannah.
allan
ADDED...on reading Valdas post again , she states that William jnr is with Margaret snr in West Ham in 1861 census...
so who is the William Lorking I`ve found with daughter Adaline ?....maybe there is another Lorking family ?
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Hi allan
Can you give the reference for the 1861 census entry you are quoting?
These are the full entries for William and Adeline/Adaline Lorking on the 1851 and 1861 censuses. Adeline/Adaline was with her maternal grandparents on the 1851 census which is why I knew the marriage reference I gave for William was correct.
1851 census HO107 1768 folio 325
1 Nursery Terrace West Ham Essex
William Lorking 30 Head Married Silk Printer + ? Stratford Essex
Hannah Lorking 3 Wife Married Plaistow Essex
Margaret E Lorking 6 Daughter West Ham Essex
Anne P Lorking 4 Daughter West Ham Essex
Alfred E Lorking 2 Son West Ham Essex
William Lorking 11 Months Son West Ham Essex
plus 1 servant
1851 census HO107 1768 folio 514
Plaistow Essex
John Pigram 60 Head Married Dock foreman East Ham? Plaistow Essex
Hannah Pigram 59 Wife Married ? Plaistow Essex
Eliz Elle Pigram 25 Daughter National School ? Plaistow Essex
Mary Pigram 22 Daughter Domestic Servant Plaistow Essex
Hanrieth Pigram 17 Daughter Government Pupil Teacher Plaistow Essex
Adaline Lorking 8 Granddaughter Stratford Essex
1861 census RG9 1057 folio 69
5 Montague Terrace West Ham
William Lorking 41 Head Married Leather Cloth Painter Stratford Essex
Hannah Lorking 41 Wife Married School mistress (inf) Plaistow Essex
Adaline Lorking 18 Daughter Stratford Essex
Emma Lorking 16 Daughter West Ham Essex
Annie M Lorking 14 Daughter Pupil Teacher N S West Ham Essex
William Lorking 12 Son West Ham Essex
Alfred E Lorking 10 Son West Ham Essex
Walter H Lorking 6 Son West Ham Essex
Margaret Lorking 65 Mother Widow Boarder Guildford Surrey
By 1869 Adeline was married
Marriages Mar 1869
Lorking Adeline W Ham 4a 11
Regards
Valda
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Apologies Valda.....I only put in Stratford ,Essex on Record Pilot - so Only William and Adaline showed on the record I viewed...I see why now - because the rest of the family were not born in Stratford...I was initially trying to find any Lorking in Stratford only...sorry for misleading anyone, that`s a lesson learnt for me...we learn every day...
allan ::)
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Hi
If possible it is always best to look at the census itself as there can be errors also in the census index (as well as made by the enumerator themself - or factual inaccuracies given by whoever filled the household schedule in in the first place that the enumerator copied). On the 1881, 1871 and 1861 censuses William is indexed as Lorking, but on the index I am using as Larking in 1851 and Larkin in 1841.
More frustrating is trying to find Margaret senior on the 1851 and 1871 censuses. Youngest son Peter married 18th August 1850 St Mary Whitechapel (found on censuses from 1861 onwards) to Harriet Byworth, though he gave his father as William Lorking a cheesemonger.
Emma may have married very young in 1850 (civil registration district St Martin Westminster). There is an Emma Hudson wife of Charles Hudson aged 18 born Stratford Essex in Mitcham Surrey on the 1851 census. One of the potential spouses for the 1850 marriage in the civil registration index is a Charles Hudson. The couple are in West Ham on the 1861 and 1871 censuses. Margaret senior is not with them on the 1871 census, nor with William also in West Ham or Peter in Holborn in 1871 the year her death is later registered in West Ham district.
George married at St Helen Bishopgate in the City of London 27th January 1848 to Harriet Gardner Burley. He gave his father as William a tailor. The couple emigrated to Australia.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13454104
Regards
Valda
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Hi
The surname on census indexes is often transcribed as Larking or Laking.
Regards
Valda
Thank you - much appreciated info.
Mike :D
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1861 census , Stratford
William Lorking aged 41 b Stratford
Adaline Lorking aged 18 daughter b Stratford
if this is William who married Hannah Pigrome, there is no sign of Hannah.
allan
ADDED...on reading Valdas post again , she states that William jnr is with Margaret snr in West Ham in 1861 census...
so who is the William Lorking I`ve found with daughter Adaline ?....maybe there is another Lorking family ?
I have to be honest and say that I am completely confused by all of these Lorkings ???
More importantly perhaps, no matter what variation of the surname I use, I cannot find Margaret on the 1841 census ???
Any ideas - anybody - please?
Mike ??? ??? ???
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1851 census HO107 1768 folio 325
1 Nursery Terrace West Ham Essex
William Lorking 30 Head Married Silk Printer + ? Stratford Essex
Hannah Lorking 3 Wife Married Plaistow Essex
Margaret E Lorking 6 Daughter West Ham Essex
Anne P Lorking 4 Daughter West Ham Essex
Alfred E Lorking 2 Son West Ham Essex
William Lorking 11 Months Son West Ham Essex
plus 1 servant
Are you suggesting that this William may be a younger brother of my great great grandmother - Margaret?
Mike ???
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Hi
If possible it is always best to look at the census itself as there can be errors also in the census index (as well as made by the enumerator themself - or factual inaccuracies given by whoever filled the household schedule in in the first place that the enumerator copied). On the 1881, 1871 and 1861 censuses William is indexed as Lorking, but on the index I am using as Larking in 1851 and Larkin in 1841.
More frustrating is trying to find Margaret senior on the 1851 and 1871 censuses. Youngest son Peter married 18th August 1850 St Mary Whitechapel (found on censuses from 1861 onwards) to Harriet Byworth, though he gave his father as William Lorking a cheesemonger.
Emma may have married very young in 1850 (civil registration district St Martin Westminster). There is an Emma Hudson wife of Charles Hudson aged 18 born Stratford Essex in Mitcham Surrey on the 1851 census. One of the potential spouses for the 1850 marriage in the civil registration index is a Charles Hudson. The couple are in West Ham on the 1861 and 1871 censuses. Margaret senior is not with them on the 1871 census, nor with William also in West Ham or Peter in Holborn in 1871 the year her death is later registered in West Ham district.
George married at St Helen Bishopgate in the City of London 27th January 1848 to Harriet Gardner Burley. He gave his father as William a tailor. The couple emigrated to Australia.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13454104
Regards
Valda
This becomes more and more complex as each post adds to the equation.
I think though that you have found the correct family though, as the son-in-law of my Margaret died in West Ham in 1925.
There was no reason as far as I can tell for him to be in West Ham (other than maybe, he was visiting the family of his wife Elizabeth Tapley/Tirebuck)
Interestingly enough, although Thomas B. Tirebuck's death can be found, his wife's can't. His wife was Margaret's daughter - Elizabeth. In fact both Thomas and Elizabeth disappear completely from both the 1901 and 1911 censuses. I thinkI have a very strange family :o
Mike ??? ??? ???
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Hi
I am not making a suggestion. Until you have the information from Margaret's marriage certificate that give her father's details there is no proof of anything.
However if she states William and a tailor then this looks to be the family in Stratford.
Parents William and Margaret
Known children
William
George
Peter
Emma
There may have been others including your Margaret. These are the known children from the 1841 census. Daughters often left early to work as servants and by 1841 Margaret was in her early 20s, so had probably been working from around the age of 14. Even if your Margaret was found in the 1841 census, if she is the daughter of this family the census will only tell you she was a working servant living in.
Thomas Bigg Tirebuck and Elizabeth seem to have lived in the West Ham area for at least 24 years before his death registration there.
1901 census RG13 1627 13
31 St Mary Road Walthamstow Essex
Thomas Bigg 42 Head Married Hairdresser Luton Bedfordshire
Elizabeth Bigg 47 Wife Married Luton Bedfordshire
From a free search of the 1911 census Thomas was still in Walthamstow with Elizabeth. Enumerated as Biggs.
Possible death registration for Elizabeth but slightly to young, but then she appears to have lost a few years given her age on the 1911 census.
Deaths Mar 1932
Biggs Elizabeth 76 W.Ham 4a 275
You can be known by any name you like, though nowadays because of paperwork it is much more difficult to change. Presumably when Thomas and Elizabeth moved to Walthamstow in their everyday lives they used the surname Bigg/s though when it came to Thomas' death registration Elizabeth decided to use the name his birth and marriage were registered in.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I am not making a suggestion. Until you have the information from Margaret's marriage certificate that give her father's details there is no proof of anything.
However if she states William and a tailor then this looks to be the family in Stratford.
Parents William and Margaret
Known children
William
George
Peter
Emma
There may have been others including your Margaret. These are the known children from the 1841 census. Daughters often left early to work as servants and by 1841 Margaret was in her early 20s, so had probably been working from around the age of 14. Even if your Margaret was found in the 1841 census, if she is the daughter of this family the census will only tell you she was a working servant living in.
Thomas Bigg Tirebuck and Elizabeth seem to have lived in the West Ham area for at least 24 years before his death registration there.
1901 census RG13 1627 13
31 St Mary Road Walthamstow Essex
Thomas Bigg 42 Head Married Hairdresser Luton Bedfordshire
Elizabeth Bigg 47 Wife Married Luton Bedfordshire
From a free search of the 1911 census Thomas was still in Walthamstow with Elizabeth. Enumerated as Biggs.
Possible death registration for Elizabeth but slightly to young, but then she appears to have lost a few years given her age on the 1911 census.
Deaths Mar 1932
Biggs Elizabeth 76 W.Ham 4a 275
You can be known by any name you like, though nowadays because of paperwork it is much more difficult to change. Presumably when Thomas and Elizabeth moved to Walthamstow in their everyday lives they used the surname Bigg/s though when it came to Thomas' death registration Elizabeth decided to use the name his birth and marriage were registered in.
Regards
Valda
Hi,
I appreciate what you are saying and I understand what you are saying. Nonetheless, thank you very much - at least you have found a Lorking family in the right area - when I have the available cash in a few weeks time I will buy the marriage certificate.
Thank you also for finding Thomas and Elizabeth - I never thought to look for them using Thomas' middle name! It is interesting how much these two moved around - they were both born in Luton, they got married in Burnley, and then they came back to Luton and finally they return to where Elizabeth's mother originated and I'm guessing where she still had family. It is interesting to see where they lived in Walthamstow as earlier this year I was working in London for a short while and lived just 200 yards from where Elizabeth and Thomas lived.
I don't suppose you know how to find out where Elizabeth and Thomas are buried?
And again, thank you so very much.
Mike ??? :D ???
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Hi
Walthamstow today is in the London borough of Waltham Forest - this is presuming they didn't move before they died into another part of the area. It all mounts up cash wise but when searching for a burial in the London area having the death certificate with the exact date of death and place of death is sometimes necessary and anyway when requesting a cemetery search it makes searching a lot easier.
There is a guide at the top of the Essex Rootschat boards to burials in Essex which includes the areas of Essex which became part of Greater London in 1965 and now form five London boroughs (Barking and Dagenham, Havering, Newham, Redbridge and Waltham Forest). Under each is listed the cemeteries in their area, the dates they opened and who manages them and holds the records. Links are given to the cemetery offices.
You starting point would be Waltham Forest but bear in mind these boroughs didn't exist before 1965 and depending on where they were living, cemeteries now in Newham for instance might be just as near. Addresses for each cemetery are given so you can use Google maps to find them in relation to where the couple were living in 1911.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Walthamstow today is in the London borough of Waltham Forest - this is presuming they didn't move before they died into another part of the area. It all mounts up cash wise but when searching for a burial in the London area having the death certificate with the exact date of death and place of death is sometimes necessary and anyway when requesting a cemetery search it makes searching a lot easier.
There is a guide at the top of the Essex Rootschat boards to burials in Essex which includes the areas of Essex which became part of Greater London in 1965 and now form five London boroughs (Barking and Dagenham, Havering, Newham, Redbridge and Waltham Forest). Under each is listed the cemeteries in their area, the dates they opened and who manages them and holds the records. Links are given to the cemetery offices.
You starting point would be Waltham Forest but bear in mind these boroughs didn't exist before 1965 and depending on where they were living, cemeteries now in Newham for instance might be just as near. Addresses for each cemetery are given so you can use Google maps to find them in relation to where the couple were living in 1911.
Regards
Valda
Many thanks.
I'll search for this over the weekend.
And again, thanks - your help has been invaluable.
Mike :D
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Hi
There are other Lorkings on censuses giving a birthplace of Stratford
e.g.
1851 census HO107 1768 folio 71
High Street West Ham
George Lorking 29 Head Married Tailor Stratford Essex
Harriet Lorking 25 Wife Married Wennington Essex
Harriet Lorking 1 Daughter Stratford Essex
Infant Lorking 3 days Son Stratford Essex
plus 1 apprentice and 1 nurse
On the 1861 census there is also William Lorking aged 41 a leather cloth painter/silk printer (on 1851 census) and his family in West Ham.
The two brothers were with their parents on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 323/12 folio 7
Near the turnpike West Ham Essex
William Lorkin 45 Tailor not born in county
William Lorkin 20 Silk printer born in county
George Lorkin 15 Tailor born in county
Peter Lorkin 13 born in county
Margarit Lorkin 45 not born in county
Emma Lorkin 6 born in county
adult ages, those over 15, are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
William junior's marriage
27th December 1841 Holy Trinity Minories Liberty of the Tower of London
William Lorking Full Age Bachelor Printer Spital Square William Lorking Tailor
Hannah Pigrome Full Age Spinster Spital Square John Pigrome Clerk in the West Middlesex Docks
Both signed
Witnesses Charles Ashbourn, Margaret Lorking and Caroline Pigrome
Margaret Lorking senior was with her son William in West Ham on the 1861 census. She was aged 65, a widower born Guildford Surrey.
Deaths Dec 1872
Lorking Margaret 82 W. Ham 4a 31
The 1842 marriage for Margaret Lorking will confirm whether her father was William and a tailor. You can obtain her asylum records from Bedfordshire Record Office. Doctors of the period often made some reference to family member/s in asylum patients' records since they were often interested in proving a genetic link, though the general held belief at the time from the male medical profession and society in general was that women were weaker of mind.
The Lorking baptisms may have taken place at All Saints West Ham (if Anglican) as this could be to early for an Anglican church at Stratford. Though the orginal registers are held at Essex Record Office (you will be able to view them - for a price by the end of the month
see this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html
The London borough of Newham archives which hold microfilm copies of the registers in the area have also indexed them.
http://www.newham.gov.uk/EntertainmentandLeisure/Libraries/LibraryReferenceServices/ArchivesAndLocalHistory/Servicesatthearchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm
Sometimes if you can't go, at least at present through the direct line, looking for siblings can help.
Regards
Valda
Hi Valda,
Well, I've finally found the money to purchase William and Margaret's marriage certificate.
It would appear that your "suggestion" about Margaret's family was correct. On the certificate her father is listed as William Lorking, a tailor.
All it says for age was that both William Tapley and Margaret were of age. William was a school master (he appears on the 1841 census in Leighton Buzzard as a school master on on his son William's birth certificate as that too - although on other census returns and on William's marriage certificate he is listed as either a grocer or a shoe and boot manufacturer!)
Margaret is listed with no occupation although that does not surprise me as I would guess that she was journeying backwards and forwards between London and Leighton Buzzard. Their first child was born in Leighton Buzzard in 1843.
It does raise further questions though - the witnesses to the marriage were John Tapley (presumably William's younger brother (the father of Joseph Tapley - the world famous opera singer)) and Sarah Tapley - we have NO idea who she was, she does not enter our tree anywhere! so it appears to be one question answered and another one chucked in to the melting pot. It might also suggest something about the family dynamics at the time as all of the Tapley children lived in much the same area at the time of William's marriage and yet he asked a much younger brother to be his witness rather than one of his siblings that was much closer in age.
Now I need to start tracing the Lorkings to see if I have any living relatives fromthat line.
And again, thank you for your help.
Mike :D :D :D
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Hi
Can't help with Sarah - she's likely to be either a sister or sister-in-law, but could be an aunt or cousin. Were William's parents William and Mary Ann?
Women's occupations on marriage, particularly early marriages may not be included, as they often aren't for married women on censuses. Margaret would have given up her employment to marry. Man was the provider and it was not the thing to have a working wife, though many married women were working taking in laundry for instance. This often doesn't show on censuses.
If the marriage took place on a working day (any day but Sunday or a religious festival) then those present would have to give up time and money to travel to the church. Marriages were not the very expensive and long events (with receptions) they are today since time off work was usually required. The cost of the banns or a licence were costly enough for working people, so the event itself often in a London church where other marriages were all taking place on the same day, was by necessity a shorter event with the couple dressed in their Sunday best.
http://www.svcc.edu/academics/classes/murray/transfer/palaisroyal/stmonday.pdf
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Can't help with Sarah - she's likely to be either a sister or sister-in-law, but could be an aunt or cousin. Were William's parents William and Mary Ann?
Women's occupations on marriage, particularly early marriages may not be included, as they often aren't for married women on censuses. Margaret would have given up her employment to marry. Man was the provider and it was not the thing to have a working wife, though many married women were working taking in laundry for instance. This often doesn't show on censuses.
If the marriage took place on a working day (any day but Sunday or a religious festival) then those present would have to give up time and money to travel to the church. Marriages were not the very expensive and long events (with receptions) they are today since time off work was usually required. The cost of the banns or a licence were costly enough for working people, so the event itself often in a London church where other marriages were all taking place on the same day, was by necessity a shorter event with the couple dressed in their Sunday best.
http://www.svcc.edu/academics/classes/murray/transfer/palaisroyal/stmonday.pdf
Regards
Valda
Hi Valda,
Sorry for the delay in replying to your posting - I've been really busy tracing the lines of Margaret's siblings - I've done well so far and have managed to trace Emma's line right up to a 4th cousin who lives less than 50 miles away from me now in Cambridgeshire!
Still no idea who the SARAH referred to on the marriage certificate was - she doesn't enterinto the family tree as either a sibling, cousin or spouse - so I guess that we'll never know! ???
Yes, William's parents were William Tapley and Mary Ann Albert.
Margaret was always shown as a "sewer" on census returns but no occupation was given on the marriage certificate - another of those unanswerable anomilies, I guess.
May 14th 1842 (the date of the marriage) was a Saturday - so I guess that explains why some of his family might not have been there.
Still cannot find Margaret on the 1841 census - this is now my bug bear with regard to her.
I guess it's time to keep following up the leads that have been created by this, and again, thank you for all your help - it really has been much appreciated.
Regards,
Mike ??? :D ???
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Lorking is a surname that appears a lot in the Kedington and Haverhill area of Suffolk. I have a Lorken Wallaker born in 1761 in Kedington. Could be Lorking is a family name.
Margaret Lorking may have ancestors from this part of Suffolk if you go back far enough.
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Lorking is a surname that appears a lot in the Kedington and Haverhill area of Suffolk. I have a Lorken Wallaker born in 1761 in Kedington. Could be Lorking is a family name.
Margaret Lorking may have ancestors from this part of Suffolk if you go back far enough.
I guess that this is possible.
We have managed o find out that both of Margaret's parents were born c. 1796. According the 1841 census, they were both born out of county (Essex) - later census returns show that her mother (also Margaret)was born in Guildford, Surrey - we do not know where her father was born as he cannot be found on subsequent census returns.
familysearch has identified just one possible marriage - in Wanstead, Essex in 1816. William Lorking to Margaret Cotten or Collen - but there is no way (I assume) of proving that this is the correct marriage or of confirming where William was born.
Any additional help would be much appreciated.
Mike ??? ??? ???
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Hi
No showing on Family Search/IGI of a Margaret Collen/Collins or Cotten baptism circa 1796 in Guildford.
Coverage
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySurrey.htm#G
It doesn't eliminate the marriage - it just doesn't confirm it. The witnesses from the marriage may or may not be helpful.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
No showing on Family Search/IGI of a Margaret Collen/Collins or Cotten baptism circa 1796 in Guildford.
Coverage
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySurrey.htm#G
It doesn't eliminate the marriage - it just doesn't confirm it. The witnesses from the marriage may or may not be helpful.
Regards
Valda
Thanks. We checked that as well and couldn't find anything that even vaguely resembled her.
Saying that though, none of William and Margaret Lorking's children were christened (in Stratford or anywhere remotely close to it!)
We hate to say this but maybe we've reached a dead end with this line (which is a shame because it means that we've only got back to our great great great grandparents.
How would we find out the witnesses to the marriage?
Thanks in advance.
Mike :( ??? :(
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Hi
You have to look at the actual marriage register. The register should come up when Essex Record Office puts up the digitalised images of the registers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html
or contact the local London archives. They will hold copies of the registers. Wanstead is in the London borough of Redbridge.
http://www.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/leisure_and_libraries/culture/local_history_and_heritage/local_studies_and_archive.aspx
Essex baptism index for the baptisms of William and Margaret's children if you have not found them all or any (which if not found on this index will indicate they either didn't baptise their children or were non-conformist)
http://www.sturnidae.com/Essex/Baptisms.htm
Essex burial index might be useful for finding William Lorking senior's burial and therefore his age on burial which would give an approximated year of birth.
http://www.sturnidae.com/Essex/Burials.htm
Regards
Valda
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Hi
You have to look at the actual marriage register. The register should come up when Essex Record Office puts up the digitalised images of the registers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html
or contact the local London archives. They will hold copies of the registers. Wanstead is in the London borough of Redbridge.
http://www.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/leisure_and_libraries/culture/local_history_and_heritage/local_studies_and_archive.aspx
Essex baptism index for the baptisms of William and Margaret's children if you have not found them all or any (which if not found on this index will indicate they either didn't baptise their children or were non-conformist)
http://www.sturnidae.com/Essex/Baptisms.htm
Essex burial index might be useful for finding William Lorking senior's burial and therefore his age on burial which would give an approximated year of birth.
http://www.sturnidae.com/Essex/Burials.htm
Regards
Valda
Thanks for this.
I've decided not to give up on tracing more about William and Margaret Lorking.
The 1841 census suggests that both William and Margaret were born in 1796. The 1851 census confirms that Margaret was born in Guildford.
I can't find the baptisms of any of their children on familysearch - maybe they were non-conformist or worse still Catholic ::) (as later generations were!)
I have found this on ancestry though when trying to trace a death for William (I know that he was alive in May 1842 at the time of his daughter's marriage to William Tapley):
Name: William Lorkin (from memory this is how his name was transcribed at the 1841 census)
[William Larkin]
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1795
Parish: St Nicholas, Plumstead
County: Kent
Borough: Greenwich
Parent(s): William Lorkin,
Mary Lorkin
Record Type: Baptism
This would make him born "out of county" for the 1841 census and the year is pretty close!
However the only possible death record I can find is this one:
Name: William John Lorking
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1846
Registration district: Strand
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1
Page: 281
This doesn't seem to fit as I can't find reference to him being William John Lorking anywhere.
Any bright ideas please?
Mike :o ??? :o
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Hi
The census enumerator clearly wrote the surname as Lorkin in 1841 copying the household schedule which if the family were literate would have been written by them.
The 1841 census is unlikely to suggest an exact year of birth for William since adults, those over 15, were usually recorded with ages rounded down to the nearest 5. So even if William's age is exact to the nearest 5 (as of census night in early June) that would still place him as born between 1792/3- 1795/6 (45-49) so the Plumstead baptism 22nd February 1795 born 3rd February is a possibility. An age at burial (again if accurate) would give a more exact age.
Since the family cannot as yet be found on the 1851 census William's death could have occurred anytime between 1841-1861. If it is contained in the General Registry Office index it may be misindexed. The Essex burial index gives a second shot at finding William from burial records with a possible address.
There was no question (and still isn't) on the marriage index that asks whether a father was deceased or not. It was the custom and practice of some officials to ask this question and place the information onto the marriage certificate, or put it there if the information was supplied whether asked for or not. It was however the custom and practice of many other officials not to ask the question or place the additional (unasked for) information on the certificate. Therefore unfortunately the absence of the word deceased on an 1842 marriage certificate is no guarantee without further evidence that either father was still alive, unless perhaps the word deceased appeared for the other father giving an indication that this was an official who added this information.
Many Essex parishes are not covered by the IGI/Family Search including many parishes in the West Ham area. Therefore unless you have searched using a county wide Essex index you really have no evidence as yet for whether the family were non-conformist or not. A later generation in one of the lines may have become Catholic. Marriage to a Catholic usually means subsequent children are baptised Catholic. As yet through marriages e.g. the 1842 marriage there is no evidence the family at this point were Catholic (or any other form of non-conformism?) unless the marriages were in Catholic churches (pre civil registration 1837 all marriages except Quakers had to be in Anglican churches to be legal).
Regards
Valda
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Yes that is a bit of a setback for people researching Essex ancestors who cannot always get to Essex Record Office. FamilySearch Pilot site has released some but hardly any parishes of my ancestors, typical.
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Hi,
I see this thread is from 5yrs ago, but I just discovered it when searching for 'Margaret Lorking', and have a bit more info, if you're still looking?
My 4th great-grandfather is an Edward Collen (1781-1865), brother to your ancestor Margaret Collen (Lorking). The only direct reference I've found to this is his will, which states:
"the sum of two hundred pounds to my sister Margaret Lorking, the wife of ---- Lorking of Charles Street Saffron Garden, provision for her own absolute use and benefit..."
but the 1841 census does include a Margaret Collen age 16 (not 100% sure if she's Edward's daughter) staying with the Margaret & William Lorking family, so the connection is there.
I've not been able to find Edward & Margaret's parents though. He states he was born in Cork, Ireland in censuses, but brings his family up in Albury, Surrey, where there are other Collens going way back. A Margaret Collen was baptised nearby in Godalming on 12 Feb 1786, which could be her (she would then be 10 yrs older than her husband and lie on censuses though).
To add to the mystery, Edward died in Baden, Germany, at his son-in-law's house (Wendelin Kleyser), and there seem to be a lot of Collens in Baden too. So I'm not sure whether their parents came from Cork, Surrey or Baden!
You are right about the Catholic connection though. Edward bought land to have a church built in Guildford, and one side of the family is still very involved with the church today.
If you've discovered anything else in the meantime, I'd be very interested.