RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: firstfleet on Saturday 20 August 11 02:35 BST (UK)
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Hello, needing your assistance in locating the final resting place of my gggrandmother..mary
hodges nee gilmore..born i believe in sydney abt 1829..parents mark gilmore & mary birney..
Mary married john hodges in bathurst nsw 17-1-1855.[ campbells river ]..its believed that
john hodges died around 1901 in harden nsw??..the problem i have is that i cant seem to
find a death date or burial location for mary hodges...They had 7 seven children that i know
of, LUCY..EDWARD..HENRY..JAMES..JULIA..MARY..THOMAS.. lucy married john herbert woods
1-5-1873 bathurst nsw..they are my great grand parents...
would love to find the final resting place of mary hodges...
Thanks guys
first fleet..
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There is a birth of a Mary A Gilmore V18291526 125?1829 in 1829 but doesn't state whiich district. Father Joseph mother Mary. So wrong father's name.
Then there is a death for Mary A Hodges father Joseph, In the mother's name column it says Died Hay (I presume this means Mary A not her mother.) NSW 6026/1879.
Could this be your Mary? Was her last child born before 1879?
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Mary GILMORE who married John HODGES in Bathurst were both Convicts.
They applied to be married in 1847 by the Revd. BOURGESS at Bathurst:
GILMORE Mary 25yrs {Margaret (3) Sentence 7yrs FS (Free by Servitude)} and HODGES John 36yrs {Parmelia (1) Sentence Life TOL} 1847; Bourgess; Bathurst.
Their marriage appears to be registered in 1855:
GILMORE Mary m. HODGES John
Reg Year: 1855
Ref Number: V1855580 101
Parish: Bathurst; Kelso, St Michael's; Co. Bathurst, Roman Catholic
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Harden is a very long way from Bathurst. Bathurst being up from Sydney and Harden being inland from Yass.
Why is it that you ' believe' he died down that way and is it at all possible that his wife was with him?
Jamjar
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The only reg for a Lucy Hodges that I can see, that would fit, has a father James.
The following year there is a son James listed.
Jamjar
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Hi, could it be that John Hodges died much earlier ??? There is a death at Hartley NSW in 1868. Hartley is not far from Bathurst :-\.
Mary could have remarried under her married name of Hodges of which there are quite a few.
Edit to Add There is no marriage of a James Hodges to anybody in the period 1840-60. But there is also another birth registered to the couple a Jomes Hodges in 1852. Wondering if they used a name corruption because they were not married :o
Neil
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There is a birth of a Mary A Gilmore V18291526 125?1829 in 1829 but doesn't state whiich district. Father Joseph mother Mary. So wrong father's name.
I took a closer look at this birth record and the father is Joseph M. Could he have started using the name Mark after the birth of his and Mary's first child?
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Births I found with surname Hodges given names of parents John and Mary 1840 to 1868
V1847818 49/1847 Edward N J
V18542262 72/1854 Julia A
2937/1856 Mary A Bathurst
4840/1858 Thomas A Bathurst
There are two trees on ancestry which have a son Henry but that is the only child they have for Mary Gilmore and John Hodges. No parents for either but they have followed Henry's line through.
Born about 1851 at Rockley
Died 5 Feb 1935 at Narromine, NSW
Marriage 1875 at Bourke, to Matilda Hancock
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There is a birth of a Mary A Gilmore V18291526 125?1829 in 1829 but doesn't state whiich district. Father Joseph mother Mary. So wrong father's name.
I took a closer look at this birth record and the father is Joseph M. Could he have started using the name Mark after the birth of his and Mary's first child?
There is no death registered to Joseph Gilmore but one to a Mark at wellington NSW 1865 and same for son Mark in 1872. Maybe he didn't like the name Joseph?
Neil
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Thanks guys...you have all been a great help..it appears that mary hodges died 22-9-1865
dunns plains,near rockley nsw..from the info i recieved last night it looks like she may have
been buried at long swamp cemetery, which i believe is in the bathurst area..as for her
husband john hodges..a family member seems to think that he may have remarried after
marys death,owing to the children being very young..but still no real clue as to where
john hodges was buried??...
it also appears that mary was not born in sydney,but county antrim ireland..so the convict
side of things may be worth investigating...would you know where to start looking???
Again guys...A big thank you
firstfleet
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GILMORE Mary
Age: 18yrs
DOB: 1822
Native Place Down Co.
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Kitchen Maid
Crime: Vagrancy
Trial Year: 1839
Trial Place: Down
Conviction: 7yrs Transportation
Ship to Colony: Margaret (3)
Year: 1840
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There were two Mary GILMOREs on the Margaret 3 - the older one married Thomas GOATE and there is a story about their trials and tribulations here:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12951883?searchTerm=thomas%20goate&searchLimits=
It was the younger one who married John HODGES - details given by Merlin.
This is quite interesting and one for JM. The Rev. Vincent BOURGEOIS took over as the Catholic minister at Bathurst in 1846, and of all those said to be married by him after applying for permission, guess how many I can see on the indexes? (insert the sound of crickets here ;D) Of those whose marriage announcements appear in the newspapers for the late 1840's as being married by him, guess how many I can see in the indexes? (again insert the sound of crickets here). I do vaguely remember a past thread about missing registers from Bathurst.
Debra :)
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Austcemindex has information about the Mary HODGES buried at Long Swamp.
Mary Hodges,
died 22 Sep 1865, aged 40y,
b. Co Antrim Ire;
dau/James & Alice (Gilmore) Tallman;
w/John; mother; unmarked grave
http://www.austcemindex.com/inscriptions.php
Judith
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Hi,
Have you dispensed with this John Hodges.
6770/1895 HODGES JOHN Father RICHARD Mother ESTHER Died WATTLE FLAT . Wattle Flat is Just north of Bathurst.
Neil
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Austcemindex suggests that the John HODGES, aged 74, d 1895, buried at Wattle Flat is husband of Ann, perhaps father of a Teresa TURLEY aged 73 (I assume this is her married name). There is a birth for a Teresa HODGES in 1873.
http://www.austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=626522
Seems that he is probably not the right one.
Judith
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My gr.grandmother was Lucy Hodges who was born in Campbell's River near Bathurst, the daughter of John/James Hodges and Mary Gilmore. She married John Herbert Woods in Bathurst and they moved to the Harden district in the late 1800s as he worked on the railway and that is where they are both buried and most of their family were born,including my grandmother, Emily margaret. I have always thought that John Hodges aboard the "Parmelia" was the right link, but Mary Gilmore was a little more elusive, but I have her death cert. with all the appropriate children listed. Why John gave his name as James on two of the birth certs. is a mystery.
Looking forward to hearing from all those descendants out there as this has been a long haul looking for any information on these two people.
Dulcie.Hello, needing your assistance in locating the final resting place of my gggrandmother..mary
hodges nee gilmore..born i believe in sydney abt 1829..parents mark gilmore & mary birney..
Mary married john hodges in bathurst nsw 17-1-1855.[ campbells river ]..its believed that
john hodges died around 1901 in harden nsw??..the problem i have is that i cant seem to
find a death date or burial location for mary hodges...They had 7 seven children that i know
of, LUCY..EDWARD..HENRY..JAMES..JULIA..MARY..THOMAS.. lucy married john herbert woods
1-5-1873 bathurst nsw..they are my great grand parents...
would love to find the final resting place of mary hodges...
Thanks guys
first fleet..
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Lucy Hodges is my great grandmother also. Her daughter Alice Maud is my grandmother. I also have been trying to work out the correct people regarding Lucy's parents, so far unsuccessfully! According to Lucy's marriage certificate, they are James Hodges & Mary Gilmore, but there is a notation on the certificate, stating that this information was added in 1931, some 76 years after the event. I question the accuracy of this information. Lucy's birth & baptism transcription also states his name as "James." However, on Mary Gilmore's marriage transcription he is shown as "John." This "John" & Mary Gilmore were married in the Catholic Church at Bathurst in 1855. But, Lucy was born in 1851 & baptised in the Catholic Church 1853! As far as I know, Lucy could not have been baptised a Catholic if she was illegitimate. Her brother James was born in 1852 & baptised the same day as Lucy in 1853. My take on this is that the "John" Hodges & Mary Gilmore married in 1855 are not the parents of Lucy. I believe "James" is her father's correct name, but there appears to be no record of him marrying Mary Gilmore. Maybe "Gilmore" is incorrect for her mother's maiden name!!
I think I may have added some more questions, rather than getting any answers.
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But, Lucy was born in 1851 & baptised in the Catholic Church 1853! As far as I know, Lucy could not have been baptised a Catholic if she was illegitimate.
I've never heard that illegitimate children would not have been baptised by a Catholic priest :-\
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Lucy Hodges is my great grandmother also. Her daughter Alice Maud is my grandmother. I also have been trying to work out the correct people regarding Lucy's parents, so far unsuccessfully! According to Lucy's marriage certificate, they are James Hodges & Mary Gilmore, but there is a notation on the certificate, stating that this information was added in 1931, some 76 years after the event. I question the accuracy of this information. Lucy's birth & baptism transcription also states his name as "James." However, on Mary Gilmore's marriage transcription he is shown as "John." This "John" & Mary Gilmore were married in the Catholic Church at Bathurst in 1855. But, Lucy was born in 1851 & baptised in the Catholic Church 1853! As far as I know, Lucy could not have been baptised a Catholic if she was illegitimate. Her brother James was born in 1852 & baptised the same day as Lucy in 1853. My take on this is that the "John" Hodges & Mary Gilmore married in 1855 are not the parents of Lucy. I believe "James" is her father's correct name, but there appears to be no record of him marrying Mary Gilmore. Maybe "Gilmore" is incorrect for her mother's maiden name!!
I think I may have added some more questions, rather than getting any answers.
Hi there,
It is entirely possible that information was added to the NSW BDM register re the marriage. In the decades after civil registration commenced in March 1856, there was an on-going dispute between the civil authority of the Registrar General on the one hand, and the many denominations on the other hand, in respect of the level of detail that the Reg Gen's Office expected to be made available on the civil registry of marriages. The dispute was finally resolved in the 1890s. In 1912 NSW BDM commenced reconciling their marriage registers with the Church records, and therefore added the information originally recorded by the clergy at the time the bride and groom were interviewed prior to the ceremony. So the clergy had initially forwarded to the Reg Gen's offices ONLY a summary of their own registers. Of course, reconciling the NSW BDM records to the Church records was a huge task, which required funding. The process started in 1912 and stopped in about mid 1915 due to the experienced clerks at NSW BDM were needed by the AIF for Base Records clerical duties. There has been several false starts since then. And the process has not ever been completed.
May I suggest that as there has been information added in 1931, the NSW BDM will have signed off on that information. IF the document you have does NOT provide you with confidence that the NSW BDM signed off by consulting with the original church registers, then of course the best option is to seek out the original church registers. The clergy did ask for
the names and occupation of the fathers of both the bride and the groom,
the names and maiden names of the mothers of both the bride and the groom,
the groom's place of birth, usual occupation, then age
the bride's place of birth, usual occupation, then age
If either the bride or the groom were not yet 21 years of age, then they could NOT give their own consent to the marriage, and so a responsible adult (usually the father) would have needed to give consent. That consent, and the person and their relationship would be recorded on the NSW BDM register AND on the Church register.
It is not unusual for the information to still be missing from the NSW BDM's register, and they do mention this on their website, and they suggest that the church registers will hold further information. I should also note that after re-reading this thread, I can agree that there are several missing registers from some rural districts, I recall mention of Bathurst, Young, Albury, Wagga, and up the north coast around the Clarence River....
Hope this is helpful. I can provide further tips and clues if needed.
I agree with Aghadowey, there's no reason for a baby to be denied a baptism by any denomination just because the Dad is not named on the record. The delay in baptising NSW babies in that era would be more likely as a consequence of the rapid increase in the population due to the gold rushes and the huge territory the circuit priests needed to cover to get to all their flock.
Cheers, JM
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Yes. I got that wrong. What I meant to say was that the parents probably could not have gotten married in the Catholic Church, at the time - 1855. The Church is much more relaxed about this now.
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If this is the marriage, then it pre-dates civil registration, and so the document that the NSW BDM issues is not a marriage certificate, but a typed document which is a transcription of their Early Church Records.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZJ-Z87 This is from familysearch's index. There may be further information on their image of that original Church register.
So, if this is the marriage, then I am not as confident that NSW BDM authorised any alterations in 1931 to their copy of that record. I would urge you to approach the Diocese for access to their original register, and explain why (you are concerned about an apparent change made in 1931 and you want to see what was on the register initially). At this time of the year, many Diocese offices are very busy with Advent arrangements, and their usual parish volunteers may be quite busy on their own family activities. So, I would suggest patience, and a snail mail letter to the Diocese, with copy of the NSW BDM document with those 1931 alterations and please consider to offer to make a donation ...
http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/
http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=7&contact-us
Cheers, JM
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Is this Lucy's baptism
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDR-LM9
It seems to suggest that Lucy's parents were already husband and wife at that time.
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks JM!
That is Lucy's baptism. I have a transcription, which also shows her birth date.
I will do as you suggest & will contact the Diocese.