RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: pearlsing on Thursday 18 August 11 00:04 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm looking for Jacob Morris Muscovitz, born abt 1843, Lodz, Poland. Married Eleanor or Aleena Blema or Medel from the same city. They had Abraham born about 1873 in Poland. Came to London and had Nathan, born 1876, Simon, born 1878, Golda born 20 Feb 1880, Gershion, born 1882, Jacob born 1886, Bertha, born 1888 and Rebecca, born 1891. Cencus 1881, 1891 and 1901 places the family in Mile End Old Town, London. Hoping to find more information as to when they arrived and vital records on the family.
Thank you
Pearlsing
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Hello there
My Great Great Grandfather is Jacob Morris Muscovitz. My Great Grandmother, Golda Singleton (nee Muscovitz) was his daughter. I'm in the process of piecing my family tree together on Findmypast.co.uk. My name is Abigail and now live in Wales after my parents moved here from London.
Where do you sit in the family tree?
I'm happy to share the information I have if there's an easy way to do it!
Best, Abi
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Hi Abi
Thanks for the responce. I have Golda M married to George Singleton, 19 Feb 1902 and they had 10 children. I have done a lot with the Singleton line. And would love to find more ancestors for Golda. Prehaps a PM message would be good.
Thanks again
Pearl Singleton
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Hello Fellow Muscovites
Im a descendent of Morris Muscovitz - Morrie Morris and Ben Morris. Refer to the link below.
This tree was done by a Patricia Hopps in the states (im in Australia) and may help fill in the gaps. My family in oz had chased this line for ages and was happy to get the name of Morris's father - Alexander which we never had before. PS these are the anglisised names.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/o/p/Patricia-A-Hopps/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0013.html
Your dates and names mostly match up. Im interested to see if if this Jacob Morris is also Morris Muscovitz aka Simcha Moisha. There seems to be a few different names floating around ie Abraham born 1873 is mostly likely Alf Morris, Jacob born 1886 is most likely Jack Morris, Gershion born 1882 is most likely george morris.
Pearlsing - I put the Muscovitzs arriving in England from Lodz between 1873 and 1875 (Alf Morris, b. Abt. 1874, Lodz , Nate (Nathan) Morris, b. Abt. 1875, Mile End, London).
Some of us went to Australia - my line (ben Morris was in aust by late 1890's) and some went Canada and some stayed in England. Ive searched Jewish records in lodz via the web and not found any clear reference to the Muscovitz' s and Alexanders name. This is my main focus at the moment. Any references would be helpful.
Abi it looks like were related (Golda is Morris's sister my great great grandfather) but this reference to a Jacob Morris Muscovitz ive never heard of befor. Can you both clarfiy this and is his fathers name aleaxander born 1820ish- mothers name unknown at this stage.
PS Morris died in 1918 in England.
All the best Shauno
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Hello
As far as I know Jacob is Morris according to Census reports. I have Golda's marriage cert, it states Jacob Muscovitz as her father. And his occupation as fish monger. Simcha Moisha name I believe I got from the Jewish site. I think we may have connected through a Jewish site. Perhaps PM messesages would be in order.
pearlsing
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Hi Pearl
Silly me didnt look carefully at the email you had sent my uncle Garry. PM d you. Thats great Jacob is morris. This fish monger occupation is interesting for me - kinda explains my last 15 years of professional and recreational life. Ive worked with fish in one way or another all this time. Kinda creapy i know.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Shauno
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Hello all,
Pearl - can you please elaborate on your remark that 'Jacob is Morris according to the censuses'?
Yiddish double names, e.g. Simcha-Moisha, were not unsual, and suggest that the individual was named after recently deceased relatives on both his father's and mother's side. Also, using the second of the two names as a individual's everyday name was common practice.
However, the name Jacob has no connection with either Simcha or Moisha. I suspect that there was some sort of mistake on Golda's marriage certificate. Do you have here birth certificate? The fact that her birth name was registered in a clearly patronymic form, i.e. Golda Morris Muscovitz, provides stronger evidence of her father's everyday name.
Furthermore, the website movinghere has a record of her brother Simon's attendance at the Jews' Free School in east London. Simon's father was named as Morris Muscovitz.
Justin
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The Jewish records of Konstantynow Lodzki (Lodz province) include this marriage:
1863
Szymche Mosiek Moskowicz to Blima Kaliszer
Sz = sh in Polish
Sender Moshkowicz was born there in 1864.
This birth entry indicates that the original surname was Moszkowicz (pronounced Moshkovits) = son of Moshko = son of Moisha
I cannot find any online records (yet) that tell us Simcha-Moisha's father's name. What is the source for Alexander?
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Hi
Thanks for the message. I'm attaching Golda's marriage cert.
The name Simcha-Moisha I thought was a reliable source (family tree) could be wrong. Alexander I'm not sure where I got that from. Sorry. I could have it all wrong at this point.
But I'm sure of Golda's father was a fishmonger, according to her son.
Thanks
Pearlsing
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Hi JustinL
I just remembered where I found Jacob (Morris) Muscovitz's father name, Alexander. It was from a few messages back from
Shauno. I have been in touch with his Uncle to share information.
Thanks Pearlsing
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Justin this link confirmed a very poorly written entry in an english census (date unsure ill check) that was almost undecernable stating alexander as the father of morris muscovitz. Im unsure of patricia's source. Thanks for the insight into polish records - whats your link in all this??
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/o/p/Patricia-A-Hopps/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0013.html
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Hello Shauno,
Do you mean that Morris was recorded in a UK census with his father?
Have you (or Pearl or Abi) ordered any birth certs for the children born in Mile End?
Just as Morris had a double Yiddish name, I suspect that Golda did too and that she was registered as Sarah Muscovitz.
Nothing links me to your family, I am merely fairly experienced in Jewish genealogy and enjoy helping others who may need it.
The Family Tree Maker link indicate that Stephen Hopps of Seattle uploaded the data. Have you tried to contact him, his email address is on the site?
Justin
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Thanks Justine for all your input. So can I assume that the real name in polish is Moskowicz or Moshkowicz. Or with the 'son of' reference would Alexanders Surname be Mosko? How far back can that go?
Re my ref to alexander - i was wrong the only reference to alexander was thru the patricia hopps link - not thru anything i saw. I sent Stephen an email yonks ago but to avail.
No i havent ordered any birth certificates - Nathan would be the first one born in england so that would be the first port of call but it wouldn't it only have morris/jacob/simcha as the father - there wouldnt be any ref to Alexander and so would only confirm what we know?
It seems like the best sources are from where you got the proper details for Simchas marriage to blema. Can you elaborate on this database and access? What are the chances of getting details on Alexander's parents? Also what can you see on the records re Mechenam Carlish (father of blema). Would he be Menecham Kaliszer?
Thanks for your assistance its priceless to have someone who knows there way around jewish geneology.
If you have any fish (my only expertise!) questions feel free to ask!! Maybe your guppy is sick and i can help?!!
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I think our cats would make a guppy feel very sick indeed.
The only online source of Jewish Polish records is the Jewish Records Indexing project at
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ - and excellent is it too.
An army of volunteers has transcribed the vital data from Polish archive sources from either Polish (1808-1867), Russian (1868-1917) or Yiddish (1826-1942). Some of the records (including many those of Konstantynow Lodzki) have also been filmed by the LDS.
The original Polish spelling of the name was Mośkowicz or Moszkowicz – both pronounced Moshkovitz. The suffix –wicz means ‘son of’. Surnames became mandatory for Polish Jews in 1821. We can speculate that whoever adopted the surname was the son of a Moszko/Moshko/Moisha/Mosek/Mosiek - Yiddish/Polish renderings of Moses. This man was Morris’ father or, more likely, his grandfather.
The marriage record I have found in the JRI-Poland database would be in Polish and is on FHL film number 730172. The record can, of course, also be obtained from the appropriate regional branch of the Polish State Archives. The full entry from the Jewish register should give the names of the bride’s and groom’s fathers.
There are 88 records for Kaliszer in Konstantynow Lodzski. Mendel, the Yiddish nickname for Menachem, only appears once in 1876. Apart from Patty Hopps’ tree, what evidence is there to prove that Blima’s father was Menachem/Mendel? I would have expected to see that given name in subsequent generations. Konstantynow Lodzski, incidentally, was on the border of the old gubernias of Kalisz and Mazow.
You’re right about the birth cert and Morris’ father. However, it would at least dispel the cloud of confusion about whether Morris used an additional secular name, i.e. Jacob.
Amongst the death records of Konstantynow Lodzski is the record of the death of a Aleksander Mośkowicz in 1862. It is certainly a reasonable conclusion that Morris and Blima named their first son after this man, and he may indeed have been Morris’ father.
Justin
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Shauno,
Have you found your Morris (b. 1866) in the 1901 and 1911 UK censuses?
Does it state in either one that he was a naturalised British subject?
The UK National Archives hold the naturalisation papers for:
Morris Muscovitz, native of Russia, of 124 Cable St., St. Geo. in the East, who took the oath of allegiance on 18 Mar 1901.
The papers would confirm his date and place of birth and the exact names of his parents.
Justin
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Shauno,
After a lot of hunting I have realised that your Morrie Morris was recorded as Emanuel Muscovitz, then later Morris. He married Mary Benjamin in 1885.
Where did the name Morrie come from?
Do you have the original 1881 census image where his name was transcribed as Morris?
Justin
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Wow
Your a machine justin!
Yes i have the 1881 census with Morris Muscovitz as the father age 40 (guessing he was born about 1841) and Morris Muscovitz as the son born about 1866 (aged 15 in 1881 census). They are both down as British Subjects. See attached. The names mary up with Patricia Hopps website.
Your spot on re name changes of the younger morris (to morrie morris then Emmanuel Morris) - it made my uncle work hard for it but I believe he has some paperwork on this. I was more suprised that he changed his name to emmanual as theres no family hsitory of this name. Dont know if this is a jewish thing or not. Doesnt sound like it.
Id like to order FHL film number 730172 re Szymche Mosiek Moskowicz marriage to Blima Kaliszer. What do you think the chances are of finding a birth record for szmche or a marriage record for Aleksander to id the mother of Szymche/wife of Aleksander. How would I go about this??
Also is there a rego number for the naturalisation papers for Morris held in UK National archives ?
Thanks for the death record of Alek....my uncle did do alot of work to try and find tombstones in the Lodz cemetry when he was there a few years ago but to no avail. Im guessing the name and spelling thru him and at that stage we didnt have alex's name.
As we say in Australia Justin your a top bloke for helping out so much...thanks for your help....
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Shaun,
I was really hoping that there was an obvious mistranscription of a Yiddish form of Emanuel, e.g. Manel. I would be very interested to see any evidence for the use of the pet name Morrie. It seems to me that the 1881 census contains several errors:
1. Rachel, who married Alexander Krisman in 1891, was born in Poland.
2. Katie does not appear to have existed. This was presumably Nate.
3. Alice was presumably Golda
The NA holds these two records:
Morris Muscovitz, native of Russia, of 124 Cable St., St. Geo. in the East took the oath of allegiance on 18 Mar 1901
(HO 144/440/B29237 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hhn/ )
Emanuel Morris Muscovitz, known as Emanuel Morris, fishmonger of Station Rd, Laindon (ESX) took the oath of allegiance on 22 Aug 1923
(HO 144/2656 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hho/
With the help of this list from the announcement of Morris’ funeral in The Jewish Chronicle of 23 May 1913, I have been able to identify a few more spouses: Sander Muscovitz, 636, Seven Sisters’ road ; Emanuel Muscovitz, Shaftesbury House, Port way, West Hm ; Mrs. A. Krisman, 66, Beaumont-square, E.; Alf Muscovitz, 79, Eldon-street, Sheffield ; May Muscovitz, 1, Helen street, Woolwich ; Sam Muscovitz, 49, Lincolnstreet, Bow; Mrs. G.
Singleton
Sander, calling himself Harris Moses (no idea why), married Maria Nieman on 26 Oct 1881 in the Prince’s Street Synagogue. He died on 26 Jun 1917.
Abraham, aka Alfred Abraham Morris, married Rose Fetter in 1898 in Bethnal Green. He died in 1916 in Ecclesall.
Simon, aka Sam, married Charlotte May Friend on 28 Jul 1901 in the East London Synagogue. He died on 25 Apr 1919.
The attached spreadsheet lists all the BMD entries for Mośkowicz / Moskowicz / Moszkowicz in Konstantynow Lodzski. I wonder if the very first birth registration for Mośiek Mośkowicz in 1840 is our man. There’s another film for you to order.
Cheers, Justin
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Ignore my closing remark about Mosiek; he died in infancy.
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Shaun,
Emanuel M. married Mary B. on 25 Nov 1885 at the Prince's Street Synagogue, Spitalfields
Do a search here on the rootschat site for 'marriage authorisation' posted by me. Then search for the MA here http://www.theus.org.uk/support_services/find_your_family/marriage_records/
Sender's and Rachel's MAs are also in the current database.
Justin
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JustinL
I have been following the messages about the Muscovitz family which my Golda is attached. Have you had a chance to look at her marriage cert? Any thoughts to why her father name is stated as Jacob?
Thanks your had work.
pearlsing
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Thanks for your efforts again Justin...ill be away for a couple of days and will follow up on your suggestions when i return.
Why would their oaths of allegiance be so late in life? Any thoughts there?
Pearl - I think we'll have to make Justin an honourary Muscovitz.....
I dub thee Justin Muscovtiz
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Pearl - I have looked at the marriage cert. Although she 'married out', she was of full age, so would not have needed parental authority to marry. I can see no reason why she would intentionally tell the registrar that her father was called Jacob.
The father with whom she was recorded in three consecutive censuses only ever went by the name of Morris (in non-Jewish circles at least), so I can only draw the conclusion that there was a mistake. I would suggest starting a new topic on one of the general boards to solicit other opinions.
Would you consider ordering the birth cert of Sarah Muscovitz, Q1 1880 Mile End (1c, 554)? You could always specify that you only want the cert for a child of Morris and/or Elena/Eleanor.
Shaun - Naturalization did not confer any significant benefits for your average Polish/Russian Jew, and many did not bother. It was obviously different for German Jews (such as my great-grandfather) in the run up to WWI. In short, I don't know why they left it so late. The papers themselves may of course provide a clue.
You might want to join the mailing list of british-jewry.co.uk, and put the question to them.
Justin
PS I'll change my business cards accordingly. :)
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Just made a couple of interesting discoveries in the JRI-Poland database.
The death of Manele Kaliszer was registered in Konstantynow Lodzski 1861 (FHL film 730172). Manele is a Yiddish nickname for Emanuel.
This man was possibly Blima's father.
The database also records the registration of the birth of Blima Kalisz in 1847 (FHL film 730171). The spelling of surnames varied and it was not unusual for vital events to be registered a few years after the event.
Justin
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I agree Justin should be a Muscovitz!!
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Wow, so while I've been off-line it looks like I've got a new relative - Shauno, nice to meet you! And we have a family tree helper in the form of Justin - terrific! I'm staggered at how much you've all dug up. I've shared some information with Pearl which I'm sure she's passed your way, but if you need anything just give me a shout.
Happy New Year!
Abi Muscovitz!
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I've just joined this site. I am the great grandson of Simcha Moishe and Blema Eleanor. My grandmother Bertha was their daughter and sister to Golda et al. I have a family tree prepared by my great uncle George (Gershon) in the 1960s- Bertha's brother. Bertha immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada with her husband, Monte (Weinstein) Winston, and my mother, Evelyn, in 1912. When I was in London a couple years ago I went to see the street my grandparents lived on in the East End-Lincoln Road or I believe now called Brokesley, or vice versa.
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Hi Brian
So your in Canada? Nice to know the Muscovitz Empire is spread far and wide. Im the great great grandson of Morris Muscovitz. The tree we have been working on is http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/o/p/Patricia-A-Hopps/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0013.html
I would love to have a look at your family tree. Ill send you an email address to your PM. We have gotten as far back as Alexander Muscovitz but would love to know if you have anything on him or before him.
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I'm pretty sure I'm the great-granddaughter of Golda. She has been listed in what little family tree info I have as "Sarah (Morris) Singleton" but all of the other information that I have seems to match Golda's. Justin, your guess that she went by Sarah Morris seems to have been correct. However, Muscovitz is listed as mother's maiden name on my grandmother's birth listing on the http://www.freebmd.org.uk/, which is how I found all of you. PearlSing and Abi, I would love to share info with you. Shauno & Brian, nice to meet you :)
My line of the family moved to Canada in the 50s, and my parents moved to the States in the 70s.
Cath
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Cath, nice to meet you too.
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Hi Cath, Nice to meet you also.
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How wonderful to find your posts !!
I have been researching the family tree for a friend, who is the son of Sarah (Morris) Model, and g/son of Emanuel Morris & Mary Louis Benjamin - and I had hit a brick wall with Emanuel's ancestors.
Could have saved myself so much time and fruitless searches if I'd only thought to type "Muscovitz" into the Rootschat search box ages ago !!
Thank you so much, Pearlsing et al !! and JustinL in particular for making the Morrie-to-Emanuel link. Apparently he was also called Manny by his friends.
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Attached is the 1901 UK naturalisation doc for Morris - his parents were Elijah and Leah Moszkowicz - and his 8 children are listed.
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I have just realised that the 8 children listed as living with Morris in the 1901 UK naturalisation document aren't his children. So whose children were they ? or is this a different Morris Muscovitz ?
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How disappointing. It is a different Morris - see attached 1901 census.
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If Sarah was also called Cissie, and she had three sons, Douglas, David, and a third one whose name I've forgotten, this is the right Muscovitz. Cissie's married name was Modell.
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Yes, Emanuel/Morris is the right one - but it was disappointing that the other Morris (who was naturalised in 1901) was the wrong one.
Sarah/Cissie married Joseph Model (one L ) and had Douglas, Richard, David & Martin.
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Found a bit more;
Joseph Andrew Model b. Mar 1907, Essex, Greater London, d. 1 Apr 1959. Probate; National Probate
Joseph Andrews Model otherwise Joseph of 158 Ealing Road Wembley Middlesex died 1 April 1959 at The Central Middlesex Hospital Park Royal Middlesex Probate London 7 july to Sarah Model widow and Douglas Gerald Model Medical Student. Effects can't eard amount.
Sarah Cissie Morris, b. 20 Oct 1907, London. d. 3 Feb 1995, Middlesex.
Married, Mar 1931, London.
Children; Douglas Gerald, Richard, David, Martin. Thanks Brain for info.
Can't get the info on children unless a family wishes to PM.
Hope I got it right...
Pearl
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Here is more;
Douglas Gerald Model, Mar 1933, Hendon, Middlesex, England
Richard Model, Sep 1935, Hendon, Middlesex, England
David E Model, Mar 1945, Brentford, Middlesex, England
Martin J Model, Sep 1946, Hendon, Middlesex, England
Got this from BMD and some from ancestry.
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Hey JustinL hope your well - im in Lodz! Had a look at the cemetary today. I cant recall i thought Alexander was buried there. The manager can fnd him if she has a date of death
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I think our cats would make a guppy feel very sick indeed.
The only online source of Jewish Polish records is the Jewish Records Indexing project at
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ (http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/) - and excellent is it too.
An army of volunteers has transcribed the vital data from Polish archive sources from either Polish (1808-1867), Russian (1868-1917) or Yiddish (1826-1942). Some of the records (including many those of Konstantynow Lodzki) have also been filmed by the LDS.
The original Polish spelling of the name was Mośkowicz or Moszkowicz – both pronounced Moshkovitz. The suffix –wicz means ‘son of’. Surnames became mandatory for Polish Jews in 1821. We can speculate that whoever adopted the surname was the son of a Moszko/Moshko/Moisha/Mosek/Mosiek - Yiddish/Polish renderings of Moses. This man was Morris’ father or, more likely, his grandfather.
The marriage record I have found in the JRI-Poland database would be in Polish and is on FHL film number 730172. The record can, of course, also be obtained from the appropriate regional branch of the Polish State Archives. The full entry from the Jewish register should give the names of the bride’s and groom’s fathers.
There are 88 records for Kaliszer in Konstantynow Lodzski. Mendel, the Yiddish nickname for Menachem, only appears once in 1876. Apart from Patty Hopps’ tree, what evidence is there to prove that Blima’s father was Menachem/Mendel? I would have expected to see that given name in subsequent generations. Konstantynow Lodzski, incidentally, was on the border of the old gubernias of Kalisz and Mazow.
You’re right about the birth cert and Morris’ father. However, it would at least dispel the cloud of confusion about whether Morris used an additional secular name, i.e. Jacob.
Amongst the death records of Konstantynow Lodzski is the record of the death of a Aleksander Mośkowicz in 1862. It is certainly a reasonable conclusion that Morris and Blima named their first son after this man, and he may indeed have been Morris’ father.
Justin
Im wondering if theres any muscovitz buried at Lodz. If alex died in 1862 he may not be there.