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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Spenser on Wednesday 17 August 11 21:06 BST (UK)
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hello, I'm a completely newbie and have read past threads which tell me there are fellow members who have achieved much more than me, so I am hoping for help please with Hannah Scivier born around 1800 in Hursley. She had a son John Scivier fathered by a William Webb. I would like to find out more about William, who was he and where did he live? If he and Hannah married, and if so why neither Hannah nor John took his surname. When did Hannah die, where is she buried?
Thank you in advance!
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This looks likely to be your John.
1851 Ratlake Hursley
Charles Bailey Head 51
Louisa Bailey Sister 56
Sarah Webb Sister 74
John Scivier Nephew 30
All born Hursley
This suggests that William Webb would be a brother - the Hursley Parish Records might confirm this - baptisms for the Bailey/Webb children, and presumably 2 marriages for their mother.
No sign of Hannah Scivier yet but there are 3 Hannahs born and living in Hursley in 1851 - Hannah Pach widow, Hannah Rogers widow and Hannah Trood wife of Benjamin. There is also a Hannah Mason wife of Richard born Hursley, living in Millbrook, South Stoneham registration district. Again the Parish records might help with confirming or eliminating these.
It might also help if a moderator moved this to the Hampshire board. With luck someone will see the thread and move it.
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And this should be the same John in 1841
Ratlake Hursley
Charles Bailey 43
Louisa Bailey 45
Sarah Weeb 65
John Sceiver 20
Louisa Sceiver 25
I took that from FindMyPast - Anc...y has transcribed him as Solivan.
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Thank you for giving me this information so quickly and generously. What I do know from John's marriage certificate is that his father is given as William Webb, yeoman. Family speak has it that he was the Squire at Shamblehurst, but I am led to believe that titles were exagerrated sometimes and family stories are wonderfully embellished! So I am stuck with finding out more about him and what happened to Hannah. With the John you mention you suggest William as a brother. I have wondered why John was not called William after his father, so this could well be a brother. Hannah remains a mystery for the moment, ever onward... and thank you again.
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Both of these marriages in Hursley.
Benjamin Webb
Elizabeth Churcher
16th September, 1773
Benjamin Bailey
Elizabeth Webb - widow
11th August, 1791
Also in Hursley
Benjamin Webb
buried
8th October, 1787.
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A possible baptism.
Benjamin Webb
20th July, 1758
Son of John and Mary
Hursley
and
William Webb
8th June, 1786
son of Benjamin and Elizabeth
Hursley.
Wonder if this is the father of John Scivier. ;D
Marriage
John Webb
Mary Strodrick
6th November, 1755
Hursley
Burial
William Webb
25th April, 1825
aged 39yrs
Hursley.
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Hi
Can you give us more details on John's marriage ie the year also the witnesses also have you look for a Will for William Webb
Margp
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This looks likely to be your John.
1851 Ratlake Hursley
Charles Bailey Head 51
Louisa Bailey Sister 56
Sarah Webb Sister 74
John Scivier Nephew 30
All born Hursley
I don't know whether this may or may not help or be a connection to your Webb/Scriver/Bailey family on the same 1851 census as above living next door is a William Webb unfortunately too young to be John's father
1851 HO107; Piece: 1675; Folio: 175; Page: 13
William Webb Head 34 (1817) Labourer
Sarah wife 31
Susannah dau 9
Benjn T son 5
George son 3
All born Hursely
Not sure whether this is the same family in 1861 perhaps William has remarried ???
1861 RG9; Piece: 695; Folio: 41; Page: 17
William Webb 45 Thatcher
Hannah Webb 43
Benjamin Webb 15
George Webb 12
William Webb 8
James Webb 3
All born Hursley
There's this christening Hursely for
Louisa BAILEY ch. 30/8/1793 father Benjamin BAILEY mother Elizabeth
Haven’t come across a christening for
Charles Bailey 1793 or
Sarah Webb 1777 (1851c Sarah Webb written is ‘unm’ (unmarried) but noted as sister ???
there is this christening for a Sarah Webb
Sarah Webb bn 1775 ch 10/8/1775 Hursely father Benjamin Webb mother Elizabeth
Looks as if
Louisa Bailey bn 1793 died 1878 Winchester
Charles Bailey bn 1795 died 1875 Winchester
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And this should be the same John in 1841
Ratlake Hursley
Charles Bailey 43
Louisa Bailey 45
Sarah Weeb 65
John Sceiver 20
Louisa Sceiver 25
I took that from FindMyPast - Anc...y has transcribed him as Solivan.
Baptism
Louisa Scivier
19th February, 1815
dau of Ann
bastard
Hursley
Louisa married a Charles Haskell in 1847, the are also in Hursley in 1851. HO107; Piece: 1675; Folio: 175; Page: 12
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There are 2 Baptist records for Hannah Scivier in Hursley
31 Oct 1802
F William
M Mary
28 May 1809
F John
M Elizabeth
Margp
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I have wondered why John was not called William after his father
There are 2 Baptist records for Hannah Scivier in Hursley
31 Oct 1802
F William
M Mary
28 May 1809
F John
M Elizabeth
I wonder if Hannah's son John Scivier was named after his grandfather or Hannah's brother perhaps ? John SCRIVIER 22/9/1799 Hursley father William mother Mary
Did John & ? have any children?
Can you give us more details on John's marriage ie the year also the witnesses
have you look for a Will for William Webb
Not sure whether either of these 'wills' for a William WEBB maybe a connection to William Webb father of John Scivier
William Webb effects under £450 1 March 1875 Late of Moor Green South Stoneham Market Gardener died 18/1/1875 at West End South Stoneham was proved in Winchester by John William Heath Carpenter & William James WEBB Gardener the son and Jane BAILEY widow the daughter both of Moor Green the executors
Here's this William Webb on the censuses
1871c Moorgreen RG10; Piece: 1197; Folio: 83; Page: 30
William Webb 76 born Tadley Hampshire Market Gardener
Agnes 62 wife
1861 RG9; Piece: 681; Folio: 72; Page: 20;
Farm House South Stoneham
William Webb 65 Tadley Farmer of 13 acres employing 2 men & 1 boy
Agness Matilda 53 wife
1851 South Stoneham HO107; Piece: 1670; Folio: 147; Page: 10
William Webb 56 Gardener
Harriet 46 wife
1841 HO107; Piece 402; Book: 21 E D: 5; Folio: 9; Page: 12;
West End South Stoneham
William Webb 45 Gardener
Elizabeth 47
Jane 20
Sarah 15
William 13
John 11
Although born Warwickshire I have included this one as you mention occupation YEOMAN
William WEBB effects under £3000
4 August 1876 Late of Napton Warwick YEOMAN died 23 May 1876
at Napton proved at Birmingham by Elizabeth Webb of Napton widow
the relict sole executrix
here he is on the censuses
1871 Napton RG10; Piece: 3219; Folio: 54; Page: 2
William Webb 66 Priors Marston Warwickshire Retired Farmer
Elizabeth 58
1861 Napton
William Webb56 Priors Marston Landed Proprietor
Elizabeth 48 Stockton
1851 Napton
William Webb 46 Farmer of 8 Acres
Elizabeth 38
Joseph Eagels father in law retired gardener
1841 Napton
William Webb 35 Grazier
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No sign of Hannah Scivier yet but there are 3 Hannahs born and living in Hursley in 1851 - Hannah Pach widow, Hannah Rogers widow and Hannah Trood wife of Benjamin. There is also a Hannah Mason wife of Richard born Hursley, living in Millbrook, South Stoneham registration district. Again the Parish records might help with confirming or eliminating these.
Here's Hannah Scivier with son 1861 census
1861 Shamblehurt Farm South Stoneham
RG9; Piece: 682; Folio: 8; Page: 9
John SCIVIER 36 Hursley Farmer of 180 Acres employing 2 Lab. & 3 boys
Hannah SCIVIER mother 60 (1801) Hursley 'W' (Widow)
4 servants
I wonder if this is Hannah’s death :-\
Ann SCIVIER
Dec qtr. 1863 Winchester Hampshire
Vol 2c page 59
1841 High Street St Thomas Winchester
HO107; Piece 409; Book: 9 ED: 8; Folio: 3; Page: 1; Line: 20;
Hannah SCIVIER 35 Hampshire F.S.
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No sign of Hannah Scivier yet but there are 3 Hannahs born and living in Hursley in 1851 - Hannah Pach widow, Hannah Rogers widow and Hannah Trood wife of Benjamin. There is also a Hannah Mason wife of Richard born Hursley, living in Millbrook, South Stoneham registration district. Again the Parish records might help with confirming or eliminating these.
Here's Hannah Scivier with son 1861 census
1861 Shamblehurt Farm South Stoneham
RG9; Piece: 682; Folio: 8; Page: 9
John SCIVIER 36 Hursley Farmer of 180 Acres employing 2 Lab. & 3 boys
Hannah SCIVIER mother 60 (1801) Hursley 'W' (Widow)
4 servants
1841 High Street St Thomas Winchester
HO107; Piece 409; Book: 9 ED: 8; Folio: 3; Page: 1; Line: 20;
Hannah SCIVIER 35 Hampshire F.S.
It would be nice to know who lived at Shamblehurt Farm on previous census
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Spenser,
A warm welcome to Rootschat. Re "John the Squire", here's a detailed description of Shamblehurst farm from an advert in the Hampshire Telegraph &Sussex Chronicle, Sat, August 3 1867.
SHAMBLEHURST FARM, SOUTH STONEHAM, NEAR SOUTHAMPTON
Valuable dairy of 10 cross bred Cows in calf, four 2 years old Heifers, four Weaners, one Bull, 50 Hampshire Down young Ewes, seven young draught Horses, one Colt, clever seven Year old Hackney Gelding, quiet to ride and drive, 19 strong Shutes and Breeding Sows, Poultry, 3 Waggons, five Carts, four-horse power Thrashing Machine (by Tasker), Ploughs, Presses, Harrows, Drags, Ring and Plain Cylinder Rollers, Bennett's Seed Machine, Corn and Turnip Drill, Cake Crushers, Chaff Cutter, Night-soil Tun, Gardner's Turnip Cutter, Horse-hoe, Scarifier, Winnowing machine, Barn Implements, Sacks, Team, plough and cart Harness, Hurdles, Troughs, Cages, usual assortment of Farm Tools, Dairy and Brewing Utensils, and the whole HOUSEHOLD FURNITURE, and Effects of the late Mr john Scivier deceased which
Mr RICHARD AUSTIN is favoured with instruction to SELL by PUBLIC AUCTION, without reserve, on the premises, on Tuesday, August 7th,, 1867, at Twelve o'clock.
Particulars in Catalogues, to be obtained of the Auctioneer, Bishop's Waltham and Southampton.
A John Scivier, Shamblehurst, married a Rebecca Godrich, December 1865. Is this the same "late John Scivier"?
regards
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A John Scivier, Shamblehurst, married a Rebecca Godrich, December 1865.
Is this the same "late John Scivier"?
Looks to be the same
John SCIVIER effects under £2000 16 July 1867 letters of Administration of the personal Estate and effects of John Scivier late of Shamblehurst in the Parish of South Stoneham Yeoman deceased who died 21st June 1867 at Shamblehurst aforesaid were granted at Winchester to Rebecca SCIVIER of Shamblehurst widow the Relict of the said deceased she having been first sworn.
1871c Durley Hampshire
RG10; Piece: 1215; Folio: 24; Page: 2
Rebecca SCIVIER Head Widow 37 Dursley Independant means
Edward J (John) son 4 South Stoneham
1881c RG11; Piece: 1236; Folio: 23; Page: 4
Durley Mill
Rebeckah GODRICH Head 71 widow
Rebeckah SCIVIER 47(mother ???) widow
James C Godrich 36 son
Edwina A “ 25 dau
1891 RG12; Piece: 941; Folio 20; Page 8 transcribed HIVIER
Durley Mill
Edward J SCIVIER 24 South Stoneham Millier
Rebecca SCIVIER 57 Durley Living on own means
1 servant
1891 RG12; Piece: 884; Folio 138; Page 1
Jessie Buettell age 19 servant is in the household of Francis & Fanny GODRICH
Edward John SCIVIER married 1892 Portsea Island Jessie Benttell
1901c RG13; Piece: 1088; Folio: 18; Page: 3 transcribed SEIVER
Durley Mill
Edward SCIVIER Head 34 South Stoneham Corn Miller died 1944 Droxford Hampshire
Jessie 29
Mable 7
John 5
Dorothy 4
Edward 1
Thomas 1 mth
Rebecca SCIVIER 67 mother Widow (died 1922 age 89 Droxford)
Rebecca GODRICH personal estate £ 243 19s. 4d. 13 Sept 1882 late of Durley widow who died 3 August 1882 at Durely was proved at Winchester by Rebecca SCIVIER of 17 Peel Terrace Gosport Widow the Daughter and James Chidell GODRICH of Durley Miller the Son the Executors
1861 RG9; Piece: 696; Folio: 31; Page: 17 Durley Mill
Rebecca GODRICH with widowed mother Rebecca & 4 siblings (inc. James Chidel)
1851 HO107; Piece: 1676; Folio: 38; Page: 20 Durley Mill
Rebecca GODRICH with parents Edward & Rebecca & 8 siblings
1841 HO107; Piece 410; Book: 11; ED 10; Folio: 12; Page: 18 Wharf Mill House
Rebecca GODRICH with James & Hester CHIDEL
1841 HO107; Piece 387; Book: 4; ED 7; Folio: 10; Page: 14; Durley Mill
Edward & Rebecca GODRICH with 4 children
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Many thanks to everyone who contributed to answering my questions, I am overwhelmed by the response, being new to this I really didn't know what to expect and I realise now that if I have been a bit more forthcoming with some extra detail, I would have made it easier for you to help me.
This is what I have gleaned (and from you all) so far:-
John Scivier B 2nd Feb 1820 in Hursley, M 1865 Droxofrd rd and D 1867 (thank you hanes teulu for details of the will, so interesting). Buried at Durley churchyard.
His mother was Hannah Scivier Baptised in Hursley 31 Oct 1802, M? D?
On John Scivier's marriage to Rebekkah Godrich in 1865 Hannah was not a Witness, instead this cousins Edward and Louisa Godrich are given. This may mean that I could presume Hannah to have died between the Census of 1861 when she is given as 60 and 1865, John's marrriage do you think a good point to take those 4 years as a searching point?
John Scivier's Will implies to me that he owned the farm, Do you have any ideas on how I can check how he came to be in possession of the farm, to leave it in a Will means he was not a Tennant? How did he become head of this farm in just 10 years?
An area of confusion for me still is John's father, William Webb and the Ratlake Farm Hursley connection that halhawk kindly raises, in the 1851 there is a John Scivier aged 30 with a Charles Bailey as Head of the House not William Webb.
Any further help/clarification very much appreciated and apologies in advance if my questions seem so glaringly naive with all your experience!
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Hi again - I should have welcomed you to RC before - so welcome! ;D
This story has got me intrigued, so I have been scribbling down the Webb/Bailey family tree - if you put together what suffolk*sue and I found, this seems to be the family:-
Elizabeth CHURCHER married Benjamin WEBB 16 Sep 1773
Children - Sarah born prob 1775 (baptism)
William born 1786 (baptism), died 1825
Probably other children?
Benjamin WEBB died 1787
Elizabeth WEBB nee CHURCHER then married Benjamin BAILEY 11 Aug 1791
Children - Louisa born 1793 (baptism), died prob 1878
Charles born 1800?, died prob 1875
Again could be other children.
Charles and Louisa were still living at Ratlake in the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
It would seem that William Webb must have at least acknowledged John as his son to his family, since he is described as nephew in the 1851 census.
Good hunting
halhawk
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Hello halhawk,
Thank you for clearing up my confusion, its given me renewed hope of moving on in the right direction, I was stuck at Shamblehurst Farm when I should have been looking at Ratlake.
If anyone knows when Hannah Scivier, daughter of William and Mary Scivier and Baptised 31st October 1802 in Hursley died or better still, where she is buried, I would be delighted to know. In the 1861 census she is 60 years and at Shamblehurst, South Stoneham, so a posible nearest church would be Durley or back to birthplace at Hursley?
Again, thank you for all your help, lovely to have when I'm just starting out.
Spenser
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Hannah Scivier, daughter of William and Mary Scivier and Baptised 31st October 1802 in Hursley
Possible siblings
Hursley baptism to parents William Scivier & Mary
Mary 20/5/1793
Ann 23/10/1796
John 22/9/1799
HANNAH 31/10/1802
If anyone knows when Hannah Scivier died or better still, where she is buried, I would be delighted to know.
1861 census she is 60 years and at Shamblehurst, South Stoneham
posible nearest church would be Durley or back to birthplace at Hursley?
Hello Spenser
From Durley Parish Website, only these two Scivier burials
http://www.durley.hampshire.org.uk/
John Scivier 24/6/1867 age 47 Shamblehurst, West End South
William Scivier 7/2/1868 3 days Durley Mill (Freebmd Death Mar 1868 Droxford vol 2c page 71)
And also
Rebecca Godrich 8/8/1882 age 72 Durley
Alfred George Godrich 28/4/1852 4 months Durley Mill
they have the marriage 14/12/1865
John Scivier to Rebecca Godrich South Stoneham
I’m still a little puzzled as John Scivier’s mother Hannah is noted as a ‘W’ Widow
on 1861 census no surname written only a ditto under John 's surname Scivier
so you’d assume it’s Scivier ???
1861 Shamblehurt Farm South Stoneham
RG9; Piece: 682; Folio: 8; Page: 9
John SCIVIER 36 Hursley Farmer of 180 Acres employing 2 Lab. & 3 boys
Hannah " mother 60 (1801) Hursley 'W' (Widow)
4 servants
Has a mistake been made on the census and she should be noted ‘UM’ unmarried
or
have they mistakenly not put her married name and just assumed it was Scivier and this is
why we can’t find a death record for Hannah Scivier
You have John’s birth certificate which says mother name is Hannah SCIVIER
and father named as William WEBB.
I would have thought on his death in 1867 if John’s mother had been alive he would have left some means for her in his will
John SCIVIER effects under £2000 16 July 1867 letters of Administration of the personal Estate and effects of John Scivier late of Shamblehurst in the Parish of South Stoneham Yeoman deceased who died 21st June 1867 at Shamblehurst aforesaid were granted at Winchester to Rebecca SCIVIER of Shamblehurst widow the Relict of the said deceased she having been first sworn.
as only his wife Rebecca is mentioned that potentially could narrow his mother’s death between 1861 - 1867 but what surname could we be looking for ???
Using FreeBMD
tried following combination assuming she's died in the same district as son John
district South Stoneham
Name Hannah
date Mar 1861 - Jun 1867
there are numerous deaths for persons named Hannah - can't see one for a Hannah SCIVIER though ???
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hello Ladyhawk,
Hannah is proving very difficult to make sense of! I can only presume that W was given as a preference to UM at 60 years but with a child, and so the surname is right and the status wrong especially as her name is on John's birth and I believe marriage certificate as Scivier.
Any ideas on how to take this forward would be wonderful. I've been doing this for just a couple of weeks and don't want to give up on Hannah just yet.
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Ann is a variant of name Hannah so wondering if any of these could be her death entry – unfortunately the only one that gives an age at death is 1876
from FreeBMD
Death Mar qtr. 1861 Romsey
Ann Scivier
Death Dec qtr. 1863 Winchester (covers Hursley)
Ann Scivier
Death Mar qtr. 1876 Winchester
Ann Scivier age 62 (1814)
This is the only one named Hannah I could find but she's too young ???
Death Dec qtr. 1911 Stockbridge
Hannah Scivier age 43 (1833)
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Hello Ladyhawk and thank you for continuing to help me with this. I would think that either of the first two are more likely as a) you rightly notice the other two are not with the right dates and b) as her son John Scivier, made no provision for her in his Will I am guessing that she passed away before his death in 1865. It is curious that she should have been listed as the name 'Hannah' in all events where she is presumed present, but perhaps called Ann after her death. Well, I always knew she was going to be a tricky one!
Well, thank you again and if anything else springs to mind please do let me know as I have a feeling this will be on-going...
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I am descended from the Sciviers - my 4xgreat grandfather was William Scivier whose daughter Hannah (chr at Hursley 1802) later married George Rogers. I don't know if this is the Hannah you are looking for. I believe that this family were from Pucknall which was part of the Hursley estate. Hannah's older sister, Elizabeth married James Webb at Michelmersh 1809. Hannah Rogers had a daughter, Eliza, abt 1848 and died 1867. The 1951 census lists Hannah Rogers at Ratlake with Louisa Haskell, her niece (the illeg daughter of her sister Ann.) I can give you more details for these if you could email me at oromai at xtra dot co dot nz .......... I have no details on Wm Webb.
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Hello Oromai and thank you for this info, I will follow up with an e-mail to your address as I think there may be some connections worth investigating. Will be in touch. Spenser.