RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Eleesavet on Sunday 14 August 11 05:07 BST (UK)
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What does solid vertical lines with a backward S in the middle represent in a family tree?
I've googled but can't find.
A family tree of my Scottish ancestors on the Isle of Skye is being transcribed for me by a very helpful lady on RootsChat. The tree has these lines and backward S. They have us stumped.
Hoping someone knows.
Liz
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Hi Eleesavet,
No idea, but I do have Perthshire Whittet's (Errol), Milne's (Scone) and Taylors (Perth, Kinnoull, Scone)...
Any connections?
Best wishes, Jimmijam
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Can you show us an example, Liz?
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It usually represents illegitimacy.
Jebber
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Hi Jimmijam,
Will pm you later today.
Liz
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Can you show us an example, Liz?
It usually represents illegitimacy.
I wonder what the full expression was that lead to the abbreviation ? I too would be interested in an example
Cheers, JM
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Hi PrueM,
I was informed by the RootsChatter who is transcribing the document that it is a solid vertical line connecting one person to another that has a backward S as a symbol in the middle. (Sorry my graphic skills aren't up to drawing an example here.)
The RootsChatter is transcribing for me as it is too faint to copy.
The RC says that she was told by a friend involved in IT that he uses a similar symbol when it comes to wiring without a clear understanding of how far the wiring has to go. She, therefore, wonders if it means a relation of an unknown distance (several generations removed).
Liz
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Hi Jebber,
From what I've found on the internet, illegitimacy is represented by (*). Would that be right then about the backward S?
I'm not at all familiar with any kind of symbols.
Liz
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Hi all, TX for weighing in on the backwards S. I've fiddled with the scanner to get the pencil lines darker. This may give you a better idea of what I'm looking at.
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Deleted - I got the wrong end of the stick!
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I could be wrong but I think that the symbol means that the person below it descended from the person above eventually i.e. there are probably other generations in between but the details aren't known. Somebody else may know better. Chrisann
TX Chrisann. That has been where people have been putting their money. ;) What stymies me is that when one looks at the approx marriage date of the couple above, they married around the same year as the next entry was born. It doesn't look like they could have had any additional generations in there. ???
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Mmm, that is what I realised - so I deleted my post, obviously while you were writing yours. :) Let's hope that somebody has seen it before and can solve the mystery. Chrisann
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Is it an 'official' symbol, or just something that has a meaning to the person who set out the tree?
BTW what is the meaning of those L shaped loops before the names?
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Hi Ruskie
Based on the rest of the tree entries on the page, I think that the L-shaped loops mean "lived in this location" at this year or during this period.
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Liz, that was not what I was expecting to see, I was expecting the line to continue through she backward S. I think Ruskie is right and the is a symbol is one devised by whoever drew up the tree.
Jebber
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Hi Ruskie
Based on the rest of the tree entries on the page, I think that the L-shaped loops mean "lived in this location" at this year or during this period.
Thanks RM - seems logical now you point it out.
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As Jebber says, it just looks as if it's something devised by whomever set out the tree. Looks as though Donald
1821-86 was the child of Donald and Catherine and that they married sometime before 1821? Kit
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Hi Ruskie, likely easier for me as I have the whole 11 x 17" sheet. The person who prepared it wrote very small lettering in a light pencil which causes a bit of eye strain, but had the generosity of adding a fair bit of detail that one wouldn't usually see in a hand-done piece. Though it's not my family, the details make for a more interesting read as I transcribe.
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Was the person who set out the tree an amateur or professional?
The wiring analogy makes some sense in that it's one thing(person) leading onto another. Are there some examples where the symbol is used that there are some gaps between the generations?
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Hi all,
Thank you for posting a copy, RedMystic, and thanks to all for your thoughts.
I know the couple had a son Donald. He was the informant on his father's death. I will check his birth record on ScotlandsPeople, if there, and get back to you.
I think I agree with Ruskie " ... one thing (person) leading onto another."
Liz
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I can't answer that one definitively Ruskie.
I popped into the Clan Donald Centre while in Scotland a few weeks ago. In addition to my own family research, I took along a few queries from other Canadian Chatters. Eleesavet's was one & I was able to turn over quite a few stones, so it was very satisfying.
(Yes, after starting working on family history as a hobby last September, I can say that I am truly addicted. ::) ;D
I have the name of the fellow who prepared the tree (but no contact info for him), and want to assume that if the Centre accepted it into their records, that it is fairly reliable. The preparer has gone to some effort to indicate what has been deduced vs what has been factually verified.
The symbol is only used the one time. The entries on either end of it are entered as if they have been factually verified.
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Mmmm, interesting you would expect it to be used repeatedly if simply leading onto issue.
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Curiouser and curiouser ... :)
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... The preparer has gone to some effort to indicate what has been deduced vs what has been factually verified.
The symbol is only used the one time. The entries on either end of it are entered as if they have been factually verified.
I get the feeling the symbol means Donald's birth details weren't satisfactorily confirmed.
I could not find a record of his birth on ScotlandsPeople. His death certificate gives his father as Donald MacIntosh, Cattle Dealer, and mother as Catherine MacIntosh. His dod 1886; age 67. Therefore, puts his dob at 1819 and not 1821 as on tree. Family Search has an extracted entry for christening of a Donald MacIntosh 1819 to a Donald MacIntosh and Catherine MacIntosh in Daviot and Dunlichity, Inverness.
Pity I couldn't contact whoever made the tree. If only he had included a key to his symbols!
Liz
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My understanding of that and other similar terms shown in some family trees is that the descent is somewhat uncertain.
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Well in that case, I suppose the 's' shape could perhaps be interpreted as looking a bit like a question mark. ;)
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Ah HA !
In the real world I have a profession. I am a Mechanical Engineering Draftsman (yes, politically correct that should read DRAFTER, and I am a female) That symbol is very familiar to me.... In drawings (plans/maps/sketches etc) it is simply a "shorthand" way of denoting that for the length of that line, it must NOT be scaled off to represent a specific distance or measurement.
It can be drawn in the horizontal or the vertical. On sketches (ie hand drawn) it is usually considered to be akin to the letter "Z" OR "N" rather than "S" ....
I will find one of my old drawings this evening (I have been computerised for over 20 years,) and take a scan to show you exactly what I mean.
But in words the line in the vertical would come from the "top" and meet the first horizontal line of the Z in the centre of that Z line and then continue down from the centre of the "bottom" of the horizontal line of the Z.
It is basically a way of NOT leaving a great deal of white space and basically allows for keeping the critical details at a legible scale and the "insignificant" information as small as possible .....
So, my thoughts are that it is a "device" used by the person who made the handwritten chart so that OTHER entries on that chart that were from the same generation are all on the same general "horizontal" area of that chart.
Cheers, JM
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Geggled ! (too curious perhaps ::) )
look at the "break line" .... this is what I am referring to on Mechanical Drawings. I wonder if the person who prepared the chart had a "drafting" profession perhaps.
(http://engineeronadisk.com/book_implementation/images/drafting13.gif)
Cheers, JM
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And this one
(http://timbertoolbox.workspacetraining.com.au/toolbox12_05/fpicot3204a_sketches_and_drawings/3204a_20_reading_drawings/images/line_conventions_break.jpg)
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And lastly this one
(short break which is perhaps akin to the backwards "S" and long break ie "Z" or "N" are both shown)
(http://www.tpub.com/content/engineering/14069/img/14069_107_3.jpg)
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Redroger and Ruskie, thank you for your input. A question mark for uncertainty. It could be, I suppose, meaning uncertainty that he was the son of the couple. If uncertain about date, I think you would put question mark by date.
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Hi there,
I don't see it as any suggestion of any question at all, rather it is simply a form of draftsman's licence to shorten the lines linking one person to another to then enable the person who drew up the chart to be able to fit all the relevent information onto the one page. I don't see it as being anything other than the person who drew up the chart trying to set out the tree so that the important information is available on that one 11" x 17" piece of paper. I doubt if it is an attempt to alert anyone to any illegitimacy re birth.
Hope this helps, and I would be interested to learn if my thoughts for explaining the draftsman's licence re drawing lines has been a help or a diversion.
I note that 11" x 17" sheet of paper is still a standard size sheet and it would be usually known as "B ledger" paper. It is similar to A3 (11.7" x 16.5")
Cheers, JM
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majm,
Thank you for your full and informative replies. I found your explanation and diagrams very interesting.
It is basically a way of NOT leaving a great deal of white space and basically allows for keeping the critical details at a legible scale and the "insignificant" information as small as possible .....
So, my thoughts are that it is a "device" used by the person who made the handwritten chart so that OTHER entries on that chart that were from the same generation are all on the same general "horizontal" area of that chart.
Considering the above quote, it might be helpful to see the full chart.
If your explanation is correct though, it wouldn't seem to indicate a significant lapse of time between marriage of couple and birth of Donald. Perhaps it indicates a lack of significant information in support of Donald's parentage.
(short break which is perhaps akin to the backwards "S" and long break ie "Z" or "N" are both shown)
(http://www.tpub.com/content/engineering/14069/img/14069_107_3.jpg)
I agree with you, majm, the short break is akin to the backwards "S", although the break in the chart looks more pronounced and curved (a slanted question mark (?) perhaps).
Talking of breaks. Would the break in the chart indicate a severed relationship?
Liz
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Hi JM,
I found your explanations to be helpful and certainly not a diversion. Perhaps the Charter was more akin with draftman's symbols than those used by a professional genealogist.
It will be interesting to get the opinion of others.
Liz
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Hi there,
I am attaching two snips from the image.
I notice that the “straight lines” are drawn using a ruler as a guide. In the first one you can clearly see the horizontal (on a slight slant) was drawn first as it has its end point showing. The drafter then turned his ruler through 90 degrees and lined up to draw the vertical line into that corner.
In the second one you can clearly see he held his ruler and moved his pencil along the leading edge to make the vertical line, lifting his pencil off the paper making a BREAK and then returning his pencil to the page to continue the line. He had no reason to move his ruler while drawing that line and allowing for the BREAK.
After removing the ruler he then completed the line with the backward S. The line is thus continuous.
I see a great deal of thought and planning had been undertaken in setting out the information on the sheet of paper. The lines are not the main feature and thus ought to be fainter. The words may well have been written in INK and the lines could be in pencil. I have looked at several charts in my private family papers prepared by one particular forbear who departed decades ago. He did not use that symbol as a tool for white spacing his “tabloid” charts. But he did use break lines when he needed to keep generations in the same horizontal plane. Perhaps because of my own engineering drawing background I had not thought too deeply as to any genealogy “message” behind those breaklines.
I think if the person preparing the chart wanted to draw attention to a question of illegitimacy it would not be by using a breakline, it would have been a handwritten abbreviation attached to the particular person’s entry. I also notice on the sample such things as the use of CAPITALISATION in a particular way, and symbols eg “ <” (earlier than) etc. I agree that the “l” is the old fashioned long hand way of writing the lower case “l” and that my forebear’s charts used it to indicate where each individual was forund to be “living” in specific years .... eg “l 1863 Sands Pitt Syd” means to me “in the 1863 Sands Directory for Sydney that person was found in that directory to be living at an address in Pitt Street, Sydney NS Wales, Australia”
PS, have just read both your recent replies after typing this post up. I think the break line is nothing more than the drafter trying to fit every piece of vital information onto the page. I doubt if it is making any comment at all about the people themselves.
Cheers, JM (a drafter for the purposes of earning an income to help provide the funds to keep my addiction to family history at the appropriate levels fit for my comfort).
Cheers, JM
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I also think that the ruler may have been held in the one vertical position to draw the line from the horizontal line and also draw in the two lines to make the break line. Thus ALL 3 may have been drawn at the one time.
Thus I think the writing on the chart came first and then the lines were drawn in. And that has resulted in the chartist realising he may have "mis-aligned" the script position for DONALD born 1821 etc. I don't see there was any "missing" generation or a time lapse.
Earlier there was some mention about this symbol appearing just ONCE on this document. I think that is significant too. For me, it shows the effort to "white space" the layout of the page, and yet include all the relevant information.
There are many conventions in drafting practices (not just in engineering drawings, but in many other professions/disciplines , eg in 21st century flow charts used by many other disciplines (economists, human resources, OH & S, where lines are contracted.
When typing reports up to request a "backdraft" (jargon for editing an existing drawing to fix errors and ommisions etc ie to revise the drawing up one revision) I show my requests for inserting breaklines thus
"--- -//- ----"
Over the decades that I have been involved in this profession, I have not ever been asked "what does that mean" and I have always received the backdrafts "back" with the breaklines correctly inserted with the included MIDDLE line (it is not shown in my request, but I guess I could have typed the request thus
"--- -/\/- ---".
Conventionally it would be considered to show ignorance of drafting practices if I were to type the backward line, and similarly to forget the required number of '-' and not to get the spacing exactly "so" would also indicate poor understanding of those conventions within the profession. I am not saying I agree with the conventions, simply that as a female of a certain age I commenced in this profession at a time when females were not exactly welcomed by the many male drafters.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you, JM.
The more I read and understand your replies, the more I am in agreement with you. I appreciate the effort made by the Chartist in the drawing of the lines. As you say, not trying to indicate illegitimacy ... merely trying to fit everything correctly into the page.
I will keep looking back to this thread to get further thoughts. (I'm busy with a houseful of visitors so it wont be as often as I would like.)
Regards.
Liz
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Your explanation certainly seems logical JM. I suppose the only question might be, was the person who drew up the genealogical chart aware of the meaning of this symbol?
And maybe if Eleesavet can look at the chart and see if it does look like this has been used to line up the generations and fill in the white blanks of paper? (if I've understood your explanation correctly ;)) Then this may be the reason for it's use.
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Your explanation certainly seems logical JM. I suppose the only question might be, was the person who drew up the genealogical chart aware of the meaning of this symbol?
And maybe if Eleesavet can look at the chart and see if it does look like this has been used to line up the generations and fill in the white blanks of paper? (if I've understood your explanation correctly ;)) Then this may be the reason for it's use.
Ruskie, I agree, it revolves around the occupation/education level/genie knowledge of the person who drew up the chart, and his intended audience.
The person knew "<" to represent "Less than" ie earlier than... which may well indicate he/she had an understanding of mathematics symbols and thus also engineering symbols.
Initially when I first posted (ie before the snip of the chart was posted) I was thinking "reverse S" could be "sinister" (dexter v sinistra and/or sinus in Latin "right" v "wrong" etc ) and that had led to thoughts re illegitimacy for a birth and thus my family history "mind" took over. But after seeing the snip, my engineering "mind" has simply taken over...
Cheers, JM
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(Oh dear I think my visitors are going to get a burnt offering (but it is a barbecue after all) as I cant stay away.)
Ruskie, cant look at chart as dont have and never seen. A copy is with RedMystic, who got from the Clan Donald Centre in Skye, and is kindly transcribing for me. I'm hoping RM will come along and give us her opinion in consideration of what JM has explained.
I'm familiar with the use of less-than and greater-than symbols. Surprisingly, I found reference on a web site to being used to indicate direct relationship between ancestors in genealogy.
Liz
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I'm familiar with the use of less-than and greater-than symbols. Surprisingly, I found reference on a web site to being used to indicate direct relationship between ancestors in genealogy.
Wow, I have had a good look at the charts drawn up by my forebear in the 1930's in Sydney NSW. All hand done. I have reproduced a symbol from one and it is attached. Notice the rounded nose rather than the pointed V and the ellipse ....
As I said "Wow" ... I am on a huge learning curve right this minute ... I am looking at his charts with re-freshed eyes.
Well, for the ones where he could establish the births were at least nine months after the marriage of the respective parents, the ellipses are filled in with ink (blue fountain pen). (All the writing is in blue ink, all the lines are in indelible pencil. When he could not establish that nine months, but had found the marriage, he left the ellipse blank. When he had not found the marriage itself (even though he had found the likely date from the birth registrations of the children) the rounded nose replaced by the sharp V point. It appears against the eldest child of each marriage. I had presumed it was a Masonic symbol as many of my forebears were in various Lodges.
I had not ever noticed that convention before on any of my forebears charts. Perhaps it was his own private way of keeping track himself, as it would be easy to fill in the ellipse once the date of the marriage was verified, and of course easy to "round" off the sharp point at the V. From an historic point of view, his research was fairly accurate, especially considering the limited interest in genealogy and the very limited resources available to him, and the taboo in that era re mentioning any links to convicts or to illegitimacy.
Eleesavet, I am very pleased that you started this thread, and that I replied. I learn something new everyday at RChat.
Two words that mean a great deal "Thank You".
Cheers, JM (edited to correct some spelling errors)
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I think part of the problem with these symbols in general is that there is no convention so far as I know, and tree draughtsmen are using symbols known to them with the best of intention, if other people use a symbol or a very similar symbol to mean two different things then confusion is soon apparent.
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I think part of the problem with these symbols in general is that there is no convention so far as I know, and tree draughtsmen are using symbols known to them with the best of intention, if other people use a symbol or a very similar symbol to mean two different things then confusion is soon apparent.
Redroger, I understand, but the chart in question is handwritten and thus I think the "backward S" is simply the tree drafter making sure that the detailed information he has collected is all on the one sheet and it is set out without any ambiguity for any reader, and that could then be folded in half to be stored away in the Clan Donald's records for later generations to then find. (One sheet, without ambiguity, for consultation at later dates are all key parts of the decisions undertaken by any drafter ... architectural, mechanical engineering, or the graphics designers preparing roadside signage etc)
Re symbols that mean two different things leading to confusion....
I don't think that the backward S has two different meanings. I don't think that the "<" has two different meanings. I explain:
"<" starts at the left at a point and the vacant space between the two lines becomes larger as it grows towards the end of the "<" on the right hand side. Thus things written to the left of it are of a lower number than things written on its right. So, in relation to family history, it is always fundamental that children are only ever born after their parents are born, thus the "< 1821" for the mother of Donald 1821-1886 is pointing to a marriage for Donald's parents and the marriage had not yet been found by the tree drafter, BUT that he felt it would be sometime dating no later than 1821. As to why he chose 1821 I can speculate that he may well have found a baptism for Donald in 1821 or perhaps had found the 1886 d.c. for Donald and had done his "sums".... But that is speculative.
Yes, my comments re the backwards S issues are also speculative. They are as logical as my speculations re the <1821 issues. Redroger, I don't see the confusion..... I see the Capitalisation of the name DONALD as being far more significant on that sheet.
There are many everyday symbols that we use and recognise in their context to have a particular meaning. Some have many meanings. For example the most simple symbol would be the "." It's everyday use includes:
a decimal point separating Dollars from Cents (when Aust took on decimal currency in 1966 it was decided this "marker" would be placed NOT at the middle of the line but at the bottom of the line, and that the $ would have but ONE vertical line and not the two vertical lines of the US currency)
a full stop at the end of a sentence, paragraph etc
a series of ....... leaving the un-asked question for others
It's use in TEXT messages is somewhat lacking.
Yet by its daily use, we do all understand it's function within its context. I have simply offered a genuine explanation for the handwritten backward S within its context. While there is possibly no definitive answer as to what the tree drafter meant when he used it just that once on that sheet, I offered my response in good faith and based on my combined experiences at both a professional level as a drafter and at my extra-curricula level as a devotee of family history. These are both of long standing.
I do so hope that RM is able to comment on my suggestion.
Cheers, JM
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A sidetrack if I may
Re Confusions.
It is not just symbols that can be mis-understood. The word “peruse” and the word “disinterest” fascinate me.
To me, “peruse” means to carefully read and examine in minute detail (oh, “minute” can confuse too) ... I mean to study for much longer than sixty seconds (‘seconds’ oh confusion reigns ... “reigns” oh deary me ;D ;D ;D) ... Anyway, sometimes I peruse a thread at RChat and after carefully reading it and thinking about it “mulling over”, I then post.
To me “peruse” also means to glance over rather quickly, without taking time out to study carefully. Anyway, sometimes I peruse a thread at RChat and “skim” over it, and I then post. So there’s two “opposing” meanings to “peruse”. So when I use the word “peruse” I would also need to take into account the context in which I use it and also the likelihood of others using it with either of those meanings. So I avoid using the word in posts, thus I avoid the confusion/ambiguity.
To me “disinterest” means to have a deep understanding of something ie an educated interest in the subject but not to have, nor seek to have, any benefit/interest derived from/by that interest. So a Judge would be required to have a deep understanding of the relevant laws pertaining to a trial over which he/she was presiding. Thus his/her determination in applying Justice is bound up in his “disinterest” in the evidence and witness statements etc v the laws/regulations/written and unwritten practices etc. However, I am well aware that the meaning of the word “disinterest” is moving rapidly towards the meaning of the word “uninterested” (ie not interested). That is, I am well aware that “disinterest” is now coming to mean “not seeking to have any knowledge of”and not anticipating any self benefit/interest. So there are some RChat threads that I am a disinterested participant, and there are other threads in which I am not interested. However, this thread is fascinating me, and my disinterest is becoming significant to me.
So, coming back on topic, I note that the tree drafter’s name is known (see reply #20). Does his name appear as a family member on the chart? Have any other tree charts been found to have been prepared by him?
So his use of symbols, the way he chose to set out (layout) his B ledger sheet, his abbreviations, the overall and the minute detail are all part of my disinterest regarding the context of that chart. Of course that context is also dependent on the era in which he prepared it, his own background, his education, his location and the level (over time and experience) of his then involvement in genealogy along with so many other factors. Similarly the way several different authors of published biographies undertook the family history research about that person and then use their own words to then publish that research can lead to different and at times opposing positions about their subjects.
That to me is what gives any person’s own interest in their own family history the chance to seek out and research for themselves via such 21st century tools as RChat and RChatters co-operative efforts.
The tree chart that RM is working on for Eleesavet is a fine example of RChatters co-operative efforts, and this thread is simply another.
I thank (usually silently) RChat for the opportunity to express my thoughts and words on every occasion that I post.
Thank you RChat.
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps this tree was made for his own pleasure and any marks and symbols were something made up, rather than had a specificed / official meaning.
I use all sorts of little markers and symbols for various things (not just genealogical charts) which would mean nothing to anyone else.
Maybe we are trying to read too much into this backward S and trying to give it a meaning which is was never intended to have? :-\
Just another way of looking at it ... :)
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This has developed into a very interesting thread. I am learning a lot from JM's replies. Having perused them for longer than 60 seconds, I am perusing them in minute detail.
I appreciate that the chartist could well have been "white spacing" and that we need to see the chart to give us a clearer picture, to find out if he used the symbol "to line up the generations and fill in the white blanks of paper".
Hopefully, if it doesn't inconvenience her, RedMystic will be able to get a clear enough copy to post here. RedMystic did advise me in another thread re these ancestors that the preparation for the chart dates back to 2003 and that she noticed after she left the Clan Donald Centre that what she had copied from the CD Centre was page 2 of 4. I think, therefore, I should contact the CD Centre to see if I can get the missing 3 pages. Perhaps we need to see a complete copy to finally conclude.
I would be interested in knowing the chartist's name to see if I can trace through family information I have. If I remember correctly RedMystic intends to advise me by e-mail. If we knew the chartist's profession it could help.
Perhaps this tree was made for his own pleasure and any marks and symbols were something made up, rather than had a specificed / official meaning.
I use all sorts of little markers and symbols for various things (not just genealogical charts) which would mean nothing to anyone else.
Maybe we are trying to read too much into this backward S and trying to give it a meaning which is was never intended to have? :-\
Just another way of looking at it ... :)
I notice the chartist's symbol against the years and names of the areas in which Donald lived. It would look like the lower case "L" to me and would to my mind be an abbreviation for either "location" or "lived". His symbol looks exactly like the lower case "Ls" he has used in words. So, my point is, the lower case "L" would seem an amateurish way to indicate location; whereas, the lateral lines and reversed S that of someone acquainted with draftsmanship in his profession. The lines (horizontal and lateral) and reversed S do look carefully drawn; however, his writing looks a little shaky!
Reversed S
I would refer you to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Google "Reversed S" and you will find further meanings of this symbol at Wikipedia. It makes for interesting reading; not that I'm suggesting that any one of the interpretations applies to the chart.
As Ruskie says maybe we are reading too much into the backward S and giving it a meaning it wasn't intended to have.
Liz
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Agh, so possibly there's additional pages associated with the chart ....
Anyway, I feel I should apologise for being such a poor wordsmith in trying to explain my take on that symbol/break line. I am very well regarded within my industry group as to my drafting skills, consise, clear, without ambiguity etc. I am an examiner of student work for various trade/apprenticeship theory classes, including of course, Computer Aided Design Drafting classes .... But oh I do so take far too many words to say what I can so easily draw. "A picture speaks a thousand words" to me ....
The lines (horizontal and lateral) and reversed S do look carefully drawn; however, his writing looks a little shaky!
My longhand writing skills were overtaken when I trained as a draftsman. I am very good at reading old script, but my longhand is simply "scribble" to a stranger. With Drafting, Capitalisation took over my longhand... everything on a drawing prepared on a drawing board (ie before puters), has to be in UPPER case. It has been that way for hundreds of years. Various pen/nib sizes match up to various sized sheets of drawing media, there's ISO codes/standards based on the old manual ways etc etc etc...
So, yes, E, while his longhand is shaky, his attention to providing depth of detail on each person is simply grand...
PS, those reverse S google explanations are very interesting .... I have avoided mentioning the equilateral cross with its 'arms' bent at right angles (either facing right or in reverse) as the reverse S on the chart does not approach that at all .... I belive that symbol can default back to Sanskrit, alas its original meaning was overtaken by the NSDAP in the 1930's.
The draftsman's lot is full of drafters who lost their longhand "running-writing" skills long before puters were around .....
Cheers, JM
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To me “disinterest” means to have a deep understanding of something ie an educated interest in the subject but not to have, nor seek to have, any benefit/interest derived from/by that interest. So a Judge would be required to have a deep understanding of the relevant laws pertaining to a trial over which he/she was presiding. Thus his/her determination in applying Justice is bound up in his “disinterest” in the evidence and witness statements etc v the laws/regulations/written and unwritten practices etc. However, I am well aware that the meaning of the word “disinterest” is moving rapidly towards the meaning of the word “uninterested” (ie not interested). That is, I am well aware that “disinterest” is now coming to mean “not seeking to have any knowledge of”and not anticipating any self benefit/interest. So there are some RChat threads that I am a disinterested participant, and there are other threads in which I am not interested. However, this thread is fascinating me, and my disinterest is becoming significant to me.
Insurance claims, basic training - to investigate a motor accident, find disinterested witnesses i.e. independent and willing, not friends/family/passengers. The uninterested witness walked away muttering 'I'm not getting involved!'
Regards,
Carol
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Insurance claims, basic training - to investigate a motor accident, find disinterested witnesses i.e. independent and willing, not friends/family/passengers. The uninterested witness walked away muttering 'I'm not getting involved!'
Regards,
Carol
i.e. people not having a personal interest, in the sense of involvement, financial or otherwise.
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Back in the mists of time (1950s) we used a reversed S to indicate a broken lineage.
I.E. The person was descended from another shown person but not directly the intervening generations being missing.
We also used a ≠ (an equals sign with a line through it) to show a couple in a relationship were not married and their offspring (issue) connected with a broken line - - - .
Cheers
Guy
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Having read and assimilated the somewhat long messages, I feel compelled to write and agree with Guy Etchells.
In the good old days ? before the advent of the Internet I was taught Family History by a very knowledgable person.
Marriage between 2 people was =
Illegitimate children were shown with a swiggly line between parents if not married.
I have noticed also that the Chapman Codes do not seem to be used on the Internet.eg
CAE for Caernavonshire
ANG for Anglesey
There is a whole list somewhere, which I cannot find at the moment !
If researchers used the proper symbols there would be no confusion ::) ::)
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Agreed Nainmaddie, the Chapman codes are usually given in family history society journals where lists of members' interests are shown, together with a key.
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Chapman Codes have been on Genuki since it began:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Regions/Codes.html
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Thank you gnu for the link. It saves me having to search my attic for my old notebooks !!!!
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Guy,
Broken lineage. Certainly worth considering. Unfortunately I dont have enough information to know for certain if that is the case. When I have sight of the tree I may be better placed to research further.
Nainmaddie,
Thank you for reading the replies.
I think I saw an example of the squiggly line you refer to on the internet. The one I saw was horizontal and I wondered if that is what the Chartist had drawn but in the vertical position.
Liz
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I would be interesting to see what other symbols are used on the chart. Do you know when the chart was made?
I'm sure Guy must be correct:
Back in the mists of time (1950s) we used a reversed S to indicate a broken lineage.
I.E. The person was descended from another shown person but not directly the intervening generations being missing.
We also used a ≠ (an equals sign with a line through it) to show a couple in a relationship were not married and their offspring (issue) connected with a broken line - - - .
Cheers
Guy
I'd like to know if the use of the symbol makes sense in this context? I suppose it may be that the person was incorrect in some of their findings as well, so used symbols 'incorrectly'.
This has a similar meaning to the electrical symbol suggested at the beginning of the thread. When I write up notes I use the '=' sign to denote a marriage.
If anyone can point me in the right direction (website perhaps?) I would be very interested to learn other 'genealogical' symbols. I know that surnames should be written in all upper case. Are there any other written or unwritten 'rules'?
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Clunky JM here as JMs ISP is OOO
The chartist IF using the reverse S ie the S as in sinister S deliberately with the illeg meaning BUT he then failed to use Dash lines Sory that simply does NOT give me confidence that he is using a Reverse S ... In fact I think it supports the break line ... .... Pehaps another reason for my thoughts that this is NOT a reverse S
Cheers JM PS I think 2003 was mentioned re date of chart
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STill clunky
BUT still deep in thought
The house pet has a name ... Felix.
Felix drinks milk. Cats drink milk.
Is Felix a cat?
Answer ... on the available information, it is not known If Felix is a cat. What is known is that Felix is a house pet.
THUS
Is the symbol indicaing anything significant re family history ? On the available information ... No... not yet!
Cheers JM
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Hi All,
RedMystic very kindly sent me copies of the chart by e-mail. She sent two slides of the whole chart and also other slides of the same chart but broken down into bigger sections for ease of reading.
I e-mailed RedMystic asking if she would post the above two slides on this thread (I haven't been able to download before so thought it quicker to ask her). But In my haste to show you the chart, I'll attempt to download.
Here goes. The writing is small but you can make out lines, symbols etc and a key.
Also you will see the name of the Chartist: Alexander MacIntosh, Edinburgh, 2003. Googled AM, thought I had found him, e-mailed and received a reply - wrong guy. Should we seek him out?
Liz
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Wow, I actually managed to do it. I'm impressed.
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Wow, I actually managed to do it. I'm impressed.
Congrats Elseevet! (I'd put in an applauding emoticon here if we had one as I know the joys of being a techno-peasant that overcomes a technology hurdle. )
Now give it a go with the right side of the page (the 2nd one on the same e-mail as this one came from) as that's the one with the backward S. You go girl!! ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for the encouragement RedMystic.
The second half of the chart.
If you open the blue link with paper clip below the attached chart in this reply you may be able to download both halves onto your computer (at least I can on mine).
Fingers crossed.
Liz
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Well it doesn't look like the mystery symbol and lines are to fill in white spaceas there is plenty of that on the page .... ;) ...
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I wonder why he didn't include the symbol in his key. An oversight or deliberate?
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Phew, finally got the internet sorted, and now back "on the air".
Firstly, agree, it was not a whitespace issue. Secondly at the left hand edge of the sheet there's a chronological list. So, the 1821 DONALD is lined up neatly with the appropriate year. Thirdly, the years are handwritten in, but the "graph" (in the vertical) seems to be possibly indicating a printed sheet, perhaps commercially produced.
EDIT TO ADD IF not a pre-printed sheet, then definitely high degree of skilled penmanship....
I can clearly see that the DONALD 1821-86 is the only entry for his generation in that branch of the tree. So, the question to me is still "what does the chartist mean when using that symbol"...
While I none the wiser for seeing the whole chart, here's two possibles (yes, one from my family history thoughts and one from my drafting thoughts ....
a) it is a sinister symbol indicating that Donald is the son of Donald and Catherine but the formal marriage records for Donald and Catherine have not yet been found.
b) it is a break line, to show that the chartist is not sure IF that Donald is the eldest child of the Donald 1787-1862 .... Afterall if he is the eldest child then his father was in his 30's when this child was born....
Alas, I still do not know if Felix is a Cat. But I too wish we had an RChat smiley to say congrats on attaching....
E ... I hope this works
(http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/207.gif) (http://www.cool-smileys.com/clapping-smiley)
Cheers, JM
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I wonder why he didn't include the symbol in his key. An oversight or deliberate?
I would think it is an oversight, chartist has labelled the chart in top right hand corner. Also the chartist has used the ruler to underline the capital headings, keeping with standard drafting practices for "penmanship" I would suggest there's at least High School Pen and Ink Skills, and industry standards for whitespacing considerations (not necessarily in the drafting specific field, but in graphical representation of any discipline, if assigning a mark out of 25, I would be happy to give 21/25 (setout/layout of the content would be out of 25, and accuracy of the info would be out of 25, and ability to use only that information to re-produce this in another format (manfacture etc by a trained craftsman) a further 25 ... ie an overall mark out of 100 ) ....
Eg,the chartist has indicated the - - - - and [ ] use. In fact, the - - - - are very evenly spaced and of good proportions to each other and to the "scale" of the page.... There's good use of white space (to give equal emphasis to each detail, and to separate each branch. The author has also placed his "c o p y r i g h t" on this specific document simply by his name, place and date in the bottom left hand corner.
Thus E, perhaps you need to unattach two pages to preserve the copyright.
And if marking JM on wordsmith skills, out of 25 ... ummm.... well, less than 12 due to the convulted sentence structures and .... ;D ::)
Cheers, JM
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Back in the mists of time (1950s) we used a reversed S to indicate a broken lineage.
I.E. The person was descended from another shown person but not directly the intervening generations being missing.
Cheers
Guy
Could the above apply? If so, what broken lineage? Is it, as JM suggests, that he is not the first child? Why would he be the only one of the third generation noted on the whole chart?
I attach the section of the chart showing the symbol and family it connects to. If you study the whole chart previously posted on this thread, you will note that this family dates back to the earliest year, and you will see that it is the only family with the third generation noted, in this case DONALD 1821-86. According to the chart, Donald is the first born to the first born of John Macintosh and Mary Finlayson.
Was the chartist trying to establish a link between earlier MacIntoshes outside Skye and those on Skye, giving more attention to the earliest family he could find and their first born? Or is this fanciful thinking?
Another thought, the above Donald's parents are Donald MacIntosh and Catherine MacIntosh (nee MacIntosh) (confirmed by his death certificate on ScotlandsPeople). Could the symbol mean they were not only his parents but also cousins removed? Perhaps his parents were cousins removed.
Liz
ps I curtsy in acknowledgement of your applause, JM.
pss I hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here. Let me know when you want to wind it up. I dont want to bore you.
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I am intrigued .... while in that state I cannot ever be bored !
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/thinking/i-dunno.gif)
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I wonder why he didn't include the symbol in his key. An oversight or deliberate?
As this was page 2 of 4, it may be that the key was on page 1. Just a thought - wish I had noticed it while I was at Clan Donald so I could have asked. :)
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EDIT TO ADD IF not a pre-printed sheet, then definitely high degree of skilled penmanship....
It was a preprinted sheet with the scale on the left hand side pre-printed.
It just occurred to me that perhaps it means that one of the subsequent sheets (as this was 2of 4 but I didn't look at the others in my rush - for my OH, the FH bloom had definitely come off the bloom by this leg of our journey ::)) contains the newest generation.
I've provided E with the name of the Clan Donald archivist who helped me. Perhaps it's time for an e-mail to her. ;)
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I have been advised that the attachments (showing the whole chart) in my replies 58 and 61 should be deleted as they are copyright. Even though they do not have the copyright symbol, his name, place and date make them copyright, and copyright exists for 70 years after a person's death. The section of the chart showing the symbol, posted in reply 8, will remain. So perhaps you want to go back and have a final look before I shortly delete them.
Liz
Please ignore the above in the light of Guy's reply no. 75 and mine no. 80. Liz (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: These replies have now been deleted. Please see reply #73
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EDIT TO ADD IF not a pre-printed sheet, then definitely high degree of skilled penmanship....
It was a preprinted sheet with the scale on the left hand side pre-printed.
It just occurred to me that perhaps it means that one of the subsequent sheets (as this was 2of 4 but I didn't look at the others in my rush - for my OH, the FH bloom had definitely come off the bloom by this leg of our journey ::)) contains the newest generation.
I've provided E with the name of the Clan Donald archivist who helped me. Perhaps it's time for an e-mail to her. ;)
Perhaps because I became involved in my own family history researching decades before the internet and the "birth" of the popular commercial websites devoted to family history, I have not ever seen a pre-printed sheet with just the scale on it being promoted for use in family history. I agree, an e-mail to CD archivist, perhaps with a link to this RChat thread, and (fingers crossed), perhaps that may lead to
a) solving the dilemma (thus establishing if Felix is a cat)
and
b) more importantly, providing a way for the chartist and Eleesavet to make direct contact with each other and share their knowledge of the details of the families that the chartist wrote up. In that way they can each contribute to the validation process of the info in that chart.
I do note that so far, despite quite a number of posts referring to the use of the reverse S on tree charts, no-one has provided any scanned examples of the reverse S used in charts prepared pre-internet. So I have had a good look at the work of my forebear who did many charts in the 1930's - 1970's era .... and on the charts that I have here he did not use it. However, I only have his original charts pertaining to our own shared family trees. I know he prepared many other charts for many other people who were simply collegues, friends etc. He was a longstanding member (at times on Management Committees) of various Genealogy Societies, eg the Society of Australian Genealogists (SAG).
Cheers, JM
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I've provided E with the name of the Clan Donald archivist who helped me. Perhaps it's time for an e-mail to her. ;)
I agree RM and JM definitely the time to contact the Clan Donald archivist. Hopefully, she can send me copies of the 3 missing pages and put me in contact with the Chartist.
As well as find the true meaning of the symbol, I would like to share details of my link to the tree and as you say, JM, " ... contribute to the validation process ..." of the chart.
Also I would like to share his findings with other researchers. There are other names mentioned on his chart which I am sure would be of interest. I have seen several posts on RootsChat re most of the other names and possibly connected with the same areas. But what with copyright I cant copy directly onto RootsChat. Is it acceptable to transcribe in another format and then post to the relevant forums? I would think the Chartist most likely has those trees somewhere in the public domain and not only in the Clan Donald Centre, where they cannot be easily accessed.
I will e-mail the Archivist asap and get back to you.
But for now I am enjoying the discussion and the search for the true identity of Felix who is a pet and drinks milk but may not be a cat!!! ;D ;D ;D
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The replies concerning copyright resulting from Eleesavet's comment in #70 have been removed.
Reproducing a small portion of any document is usually allowed under most copyright and "fair use" rules and this is the general rule for RootsChat, too.
Reproducing whole pages is a different (copyright) matter and best avoided.
Please stay on topic :)
Bob
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A quick update.
Rang the archivist at the Clan Donald Centre to ask for copies of the missing 3 pages. (You will remember that the chart is page 2 of 4 pages.) Now awaiting to receive copies by post.
Asked the archivist for her understanding of symbol. She thinks it could indicate a missing generation. From a quick look, she couldn't find it used elsewhere in the chartist's work.
The chartist, an elderly gentleman, is still alive. The archivist will contact him to ask if she can pass his contact details to me. I asked if she could also ask him the meaning of the symbol; hopefully, she will.
Seemingly, the chartist's aim in compiling charts was to establish a link between the MacIntosh families throughout the Isle of Skye.
Will keep you posted.
Best wishes.
Liz
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Very interesting Elisabet / Liz
I don't have the papers in front of me, but if memory serves, the marriage year of the parents & the birthyear of the son wouldn't have allowed for a generation between.
I'm very happy you'll be getting the additional sheets. I hope you enjoyed your interaction with the Clan Donald Centre as much as I did. The woman who assisted me is a wonder.
JOKE: Are you planning a trip to Australia now that you know 2 of the siblings went there?LOL
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Australia, here I come. ;D ;D ;D