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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: louisa b on Thursday 11 August 11 06:39 BST (UK)
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Hi NZ chatters
I am inclined to answer my own question with "yes" but need some help please
here is what I have so far
birth 1885 (Vic, Aus) 12 March
Albert Foster SHATTOCK
father Edward SHATTOCK age 39 born Peckham Surrey England (b~1846)
mother Agnes Mary SHATTOCK formerly BURNS age 36 born Auckland NZ (~1849)
married 10th October 1868
issue:
Edward Foster dec'd
Frederick 13
Agnes Mary Florence 12
Tom Harvey 10
Herbert Alexander 8
Ernest Love 6
Cecil Ambrose 4
Dora Lavinia 2
interestingly Edward Shattock was the deputy registrar and you would think he would have remembered his own marriage date because
marriage Auckland
October 16th 1870
at the residence of the Rev William John Dean,Beresford St Auckland
Edward SHATTOCK 22 clerk bachelor (b~1848)
Agnes Mary BURNS 25 spinster (b~1845)
death Vic, Aus
1931 1st October
Agnes Montgomery SHATTOCK
age 83 years (b ~1848)
father Isaac MCEWAN, merchant
mother Jessie BOWMAN
born Auckland New Zealand
married Auckland, age 21, to Edward SHATTOCK
in Victoria 62 years (from ~1870)
issue as above, plus Sylvia Constance (and Albert Foster was dec'd)
death Vic
1920 November 21
Edward SHATTOCK
age 74
father Henry Mark Shattock
mother Mary Shattock maiden surname Foster
born Surrey, England, 50 years in Victoria
married Auckland NZ age 22 to Agnes Montgomery MCEWAN
issue as above
Isaac, Jessie and Margaret McEwan emigrated from Scotland on the Duchess of Argyle in 1842 (sorry haven't got those exact details to hand)
is there any evidence of a marriage of Agnes to someone BURNS??
or another reason she would have used that name?
is is it a different person?
thanks
Lou
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Where did the first set of information about Albert's birth come from? Might it have been incorrectly transcribed?
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Hi Lou
Can see a death on NZ Index for >
1863 - McEWAN - Isaac - age not recorded
.... possibly then a re-marriage of his wife Jessie (and Agnes taking a step-father's surname ?? )
Still looking ...
~ Lu
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birth 1885 (Vic, Aus) 12 March
Albert Foster SHATTOCK
father Edward SHATTOCK age 39 born Peckham Surrey England (b~1846)
mother Agnes Mary SHATTOCK formerly BURNS age 36 born Auckland NZ (~1849)
married 10th October 1868
Are you sure these dates are correct?
If the marriage was in 1868, and their ages are also correct, then:
Edward was aged 22, and
Agnes was age 19 at the marriage? ???
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A cursory search of the VIC BMD attributes just 4 births to 'Agnes Mary' + 'Shattock'. None to 'Agnes Montgomery'+ 'Shattock'. 9 matches are there for 'Edward'+'Agnes'+'Shattock' and of those only 3 with the addition of 'Agnes' as a middle name.
Not 100% what this tells you but it may help someone else figure it all out ;)
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thanks everyone for your input
all the info I've posted comes from certificates (- there are certainly inconsistencies when you compare the ages on each)
the 1885 Victorian birth certificate of Albert Foster Shattock
the Victorian death certificates of Edward 1920 and Agnes 1931
and the NZ marriage certificate of Edward and Agnes 1870
I forgot to put in that I have the NZ death certificate of Janet McEwan
died 12 June 1904 , 6 Ellingwoth St, Auckland
age 84 years
fathers surname Bowman, mother's name blank, father's occupation pattern designer
born Glasgow
in NZ 62 years
married Glasgow age 16 to Isaac McEwan
issue living 4 males aged 54, 52, 50, 48 and 2 females aged 62 and 56
unfortunately they are not named
it was a good thought that she may have remarried but the death cert does not seem to support this (the informant was F.Little, undertaker)
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Littles the FD's records are held at the Auckland Central Library,there may be more info on those
Cheers Janette
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Hi again Lou
( ... my "still looking" got interrupted by dinner :D )
Yes, had since found Janet, relict of Isaac McEWAN, buried at Symonds Street Cemetery ... so realised re-marriage was not in the frame.
Have searched high and low and can't see anything that might have resulted in Agnes marrying in 1870 using the surname of BURNS.
Incidentally, the resource I viewed (NZSG Marriages) records the event as >
Agnes Mary BURNS - Edward SHATLOCK - 1870
It's interesting that the marriage cert. shows Agnes as being a few years older than her bridegroom (age 25) ?
Did Mother maybe object to this union ?? Has Agnes has gone ahead regardless - using an assumed name and different age ? (Agnes would have required permission to marry only if under the age of 21 .)
And, if "years in VIC" on d/c's is correct, then the couple seem to have headed to OZ very soon after marriage ?
Mmm ?
~ Lu
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Meant to ask, does the marriage cert., show the names of the witnesses to the wedding ?
~ Lu
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Hi Lu
yes the witnesses are named but I've gone and left the cert at my friend's house...will retrieve tomorrow
yes I thought that too about her age at marriage
I have not found anything for her birth or baptism (don't really know where to start with NZ - will have a look through the resources page)
I think they did move here shortly after marriage, although the first child Edward Foster Shattock was possibly born and died in Auckland - unconfirmed, then Frederick Andrew born Melbourne Nov 1871
actually... (can you hear the cogs turning?) if that date 14/11/1871 for Frederick is correct, then Edward Foster must have been born around Feb 1871 at the latest, so maybe Agnes was pregnant at the time of the marriage...hmm....
thanks for looking, hope you enjoyed dinner!
edit to add - I have not found a birth record on NZ bdm online for Edward - searched from 1869 - 1872, however an online tree on r*web has his death in Geelong, Victoria in 1876- the more you look, sometimes the more you find :)
and there are 2 grandchildren of Agnes and Edward with a middle name of Montgomery; curious :)
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Hi Lou
I wouldn't be too fazed about the incorrect date/year of the marriage. ;) (Gosh, by 1885, and with all those children, it would be difficult to remember much in the way of dates.)
Likewise, the "Montgomery" name. (Was the death informant in each case, an immediate family member ? Even they get things wrong at times. ) ;)
Did Agnes appear on Electoral rolls at all ? Might be interesting to see what names are shown for her.
~ Lu
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I have not found anything for her birth or baptism (don't really know where to start with NZ - will have a look through the resources page)
Hi again
These very early NZ births don't show up on the birth index but it's possible that there are church baptism records available.
Were the McEWANs of the Presbyterian persuasion ?
Did find two births ...
NZ BDM (online)
1856 - McEWAN - John Bowman - Reg. at Auckland
and (from Early Auckland Births - compiled by Shirley Kendall)
21 May 1850 (not stated whether birth or baptism date)
McEWAN - Andrew - s/o Isaac (occ. baker) and Janet (nee BOWMAN)
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OK, have the marriage certificate in front of me
witnesses
J. M. Barnes very flamboyant squiggles around the initials but I think it's J M (and definitely not BURNS) and
E. Brown
I wonder if the Rev. William John Dean was Presbyterian?
there is no mention of the religion on the cert
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Hi
Rev. William John DEAN (b. 1826) - came to NZ in 1867.
.... of the Primitive Methodist Church.
[I know some preachers of this era were a bit suspect ... but Rev. Dean gets a good "rap" in an online biog. ] ;)
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Hello Lu
thanks for those birth records, I'm pretty sure they are brothers of Agnes
I managed to check the electoral rolls, and interestingly, in 1903, 1914 and 1924, she is listed as Agnes Montgomery Shattock
looked at the Vic BDM indexes
of the 9 children born in Victoria (from the info on the parents death certificates etc)
4 weren't registered -or I just can't see them - quite possible
one had mother Agnes Byrnes, 3 had Agnes Mary Burns, and one had Agnes McEwan
and of 5 deaths i saw on the index (deaths of the children as adults), 3 named her as Agnes McEwan and 2 as Agnes Montgomery
ANYWAY..curiosity got the better of me so I downloaded the death certificate of Edward Foster Shattock
died 14 Jan 1876, Autumn St, Ashby, Geelong
age 5 years
father Edward Shattock
mother Agnes Shattock maiden surname MCEWAN
born Auckland NZ; 2 1/2 years in Victoria
and the birth certificate of Frederick Andrew, the first child born in Aus, states:
born 14 Nov 1871 Reilly St, Melbourne
registered 21 Feb 1872
father Edward SHATTOCK accountant age 25 born London
mother Agnes SHATTOCK formerly BYRNES age 24 born United States of America
married October 1869 Auckland NZ
sibling Edward age 1 year
I am beginning to get suspicious here
they perhaps had Edward very shortly after the marriage; and they must have somehow come to Aus between Oct 1870 and Nov 1871 - but they are not on the PRO Vic shipping list - I suppose they may have used a false name?
thanks again :D
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Hi Lou
Mmm ... so of her own volition, Agnes altered her middle christian name. Interesting, huh.
mother Agnes SHATTOCK formerly BYRNES age 24 born United States of America
^ ^ I think you have good reason to be suspicous ... USA birthplace !!! :o :D
And I take back what I said earlier about "not being too fazed re: the incorrect year of marriage ". ;D
I can now see (well, I think I can ;)) ... that some subtle attempts have been made to disguise Agnes' true identity.
~ Lu
see next >>
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Hi
Now the resource I was using to look for a previous marriage for Agnes to .... surname BURNS (and var.) doesn't distinguish between bride and groom and I'd found an odd entry for "McEWAN - Agnus". Overlooked it thinking it was a mistranscription for "Angus" (a fella). Puzzling too, because the spouse's christian name was returned as "Bazett" (kind of feminine sounding ?).
Agnus McEWAN - Bazett WATKINS -- 1869
[And the NZ BDM online, has the same listing / spelling. ]
But a little more digging, revealed this marriage notice. ::)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Daily Southern Cross" (Auckland) - 5 July 1869 - Marriages
WATKINS - McEWAN ... on 24 June at the residence of the bride's mother, Grey Street, by Rev. R.F. Macniccol, Bazett WATKINS to Agnes McEWAN, both of this city.
Interestingly, there is a further marriage for Bazett WATKINS.
Bazett WATKINS - Mary Rina HERA -- 1879
BUT ... as far as I can see ... no death for Agnes WATKINS between 1869 and 1879 !
[Bride married at her mother's residence ... and Janet McEWAN was of course a widow at this time. ]
What do you reckon ??? ;)
~ Lu
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that is all very odd
is there any way of knowing if Janet McEwan lived in Grey St??
do you think it would help for me to get that official cert of that McEwan-Watkins marriage?
actually, I saw mentioned somewhere on another post about "intention to marry" documents - that could be useful?
the death record for Ernest Shattock on the Vic index states the mother's name as Agnus McEwan (phonetic I guess)
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Hi
Personally, I don't find it odd (but maybe that's because my Australian-born gg g/m ... and her gaggle of sisters all deserted husbands (or husbands deserted them) after very brief marriages ... and they then journeyed to this side of the "ditch" ... and began the process all over again ! ) :D
I do think there is a very real possibilty that it is your Agnes who married this Mr WATKINS.
Not sure whether there will be an address (c. 1869) available for Janet McEWAN on an electoral roll ... you could try "Ancestry". [Listings in that era tended to be only for men who owned land or property. There may be a directory listing in Wises or similar ?]
~ Lu
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Another thought ... might be worth looking to see if a brother of Agnes is listed as living at Grey Street ?
Andrew McEWAN ... born 1850 ... a bit young in 1869, but could be listed at a slightly later date.
I'm not sure the "Intention to Marry" (ITM) will be of much help ... as by 1869 Agnes is probably of "full age" so doesn't require permission to marry. [You can however post an ITM look-up request here - see the thread headed "Wellington Archives".]
As you know, these very early NZ Marriage certs. don't offer a great deal of info, but it may be a worthwhile purchase to learn who the marriage witnesses were. ;)
~ Lu
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A bit about Bazett :
NZ Death
1917 - WATKINS - Bazett - 78 years (bc 1839)
Had a child - birth reg. in 1878 - with Mary Ruia [sic] - un-named, which suggests it died shortly after birth.
Death of a "Mary WATKINS" aged 34 in 1880.
Bazett went on to have about six children (from 1880) with "a Madeline /Madoline". Can't see a marriage.
He is buried at Waikumete Cemetery, Auckland (no record of a burial / cremation, found for his wife.)
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Lou
FamilySearch has records for McEWAN / McEWEN (NZ) ... all submitted, with sources not quoted (so treat with caution). ;)
Numerous entries include Isaac & Janet (double-ups I suspect).
Worth picking over for leads to other children. Often the info can prove to in fact be correct.
~ Lu
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Many thanks for all your ideas
will have a look at familysearch
Lou :)
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Hi Lu
have received in the post the marriage certificate of Bazett WATKINS and Agnes McEWAN
24th June 1869 at Auckland, age of both "major" , Watkins a mariner, bachelor; Agnes a spinster
officiating minister R.F. MACNICOL
witnesses James McLELLAN, timber merchant, Aratapu; Elizabeth MARTIN, Grey St, Auckland
most unfortunately it is different from the cert I have for the Edward SHATTOCK marriage, in that it has been re-written (?by minister) and therefore does not have the original signatures that I was hoping to compare
is this because I ordered "Printout copy"?? In all other respects the actual form is the same layout , wording etc
cheers :)
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Hi Lou
How disappointing. Grrr !! :(
I think the best idea is to direct any queries re: printout / certificate issues, to NZ BDM. ;)
I have some further snippets of info for you, which I'll post shortly.
~ Lu
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Hi again
Think it would be a good idea to get the Intention to Marry notices (ITM's) for both McEWAN - WATKINS and BURNS - SHATTOCK. [See my reply # 19 on where to post a look-up request.]
Amongst the info contained in an ITM, is "place of residence" at time of the notice ... and "length of residence" (in the registration district in which the couple were to wed.)
[It may just tell if Agnes was (1) living at other than Grey Street ... and if so, how long she'd lived there. And (2) where she was living when she married Mr. SHATTOCK. ]
~ Lu
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OK, have the marriage certificate in front of me
witnesses
J. M. Barnes very flamboyant squiggles around the initials but I think it's J M (and definitely not BURNS) and
E. Brown
Lou ... were occupations or places of abode, listed for these two witnesses ?
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no, it has only their signatures
will do as you suggest re: ITMs and NZ BDM printouts
thanks
Lou
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no, it has only their signatures
will do as you suggest re: ITMs and NZ BDM printouts
thanks
Lou
Yes ... just put the question to NZ BDM - I'm sure they'll have an answer or theory. :D
[Seems slightly odd to me -- two marriages in the same locality roughly, just over a year apart. One in a private home, the other in the minster's residence -- maybe that made a difference ?? ]
Incidentally, the Rev. R. F. (Robert Ferguson) MacNICOL was Presbyterian - "inducted into pastoral charge of the congregation of St. James, Auckland, in February, 1869".
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Hi Lou,
According to the Presbyterian Archives
■St James Auckland (*indexed from 1861 )
St James Auckland Marriage Registers and index held by Central City Library, Auckland Public Library, PO Box 4138, Auckland 1010)
Try "asking the librarian"
http://www.aucklandcitylibraries.com/ask-librarian.aspx
Cheers Janette
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Lou, I see Auckland City Library also has an obituary for Janet McEWAN (1904) ... they charge a fee of $6 for a copy though !! ::)
(I can get you a "free" copy from my local library.) Obit may just contain some info on Janet's children.
~ Lu
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Another MCEWAN son :
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
All items from "Daily Southern Cross" (Auckland)
-- 23 March 1865 - Police Court - page 6
Testimony of -- James McEWEN, son of Janet McEWEN, living in High Street ...
[Misspelling of surname, but place of residence is correct (Isaac died 1863 at his residence High Street).
-- 5 August 1863 - ... mentions Janet McEWAN of High Street.
-- 6 August 1863 - page 5 ...Janet McEWEN, widow residing in High Sreet ... "I keep a shop in Queen Street..."
(Isaac's baker's shop was in Queen Street West) ]
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Children of Isaac and Janet McEWAN :
Not sure if you've already seen this ?
The following site gives names and dates (sources don't seem to be mentioned ? )
http://genealogy.kirkpatrickaustralian.com/
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OBITUARY -- Mrs Isaac McEWAN [ Janet McEWAN ]
["NZ Herald" (Auckland) - 14 June 1904 ]
"Amongst fast thinning ranks of old colonists few were better known in the early days than the late Mrs Isaac McEWAN whose death at the age of 94 took place on Sunday last. Deceased arrived in the "Duchess of Argyle" on October 10, 1842 with her husband, and daughter, born a month before leaving Glasgow.
Her descendants now number 74 comprising 4 * children, 36 grandchildren and 34 great grandchildren.
Mrs McEWAN's first residence was a tent but her husband ( who died about 40 years ago) soon erected a baker's oven and carried on for many years a successful business nearly opposite the present BNZ**.
Mrs McEWAN with the energy that characterised so many of these old settlers continued the business of her husband, successfully for some time.
One son and one daughter still reside in Auckland - Mr Andrew McEWAN of Hesketh's Store in Queen Street, and Mrs OTTO of Collingwood Street. Her eldest son Mr Robert McEWAN was killed by the natives on one of the South Sea Islands many years ago.
The deceased is to be laid beside her husband in the Symonds Street Cemetery this afternoon."
* * * * * * * * *
[Notes: * The obit stated 4 (four) children - even though the d/c records additional "living issue".
** BNZ refers to the "Bank of New Zealand" building. ]
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Death Notice - Janet McEWAN
Published in "NZ Herald" - 13 June 1904 - simply stated that Janet died on 12th June - at her daughter's residence.
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Hi, I just came across this thread. Hope the following helps...
Bazett Watkins was my g grandfather's brother. He jumped ship and ended up in NZ. He married Agnes McEwan, but they must have split up very soon after, as this notice appeared in the Daily Southern Cross:
NOTICE, I, BAZETT WATKINS, will NOT be RESPONSIBLE for and DEBTS my wife AGNES WATKINS, may CONTRACT from this date. – October 25, 1869
Source: Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXV, Issue 3802, 26 October 1869, Page 1
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Is this the birth of the mysterious sibling 1 year old Edward?
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/
NZ Births
1870/13424, WATKINS Percy Hervey, Agnes, Bazzelt
[ date filter gives 30 Mar 1870 ]
Hello Lu
thanks for those birth records, I'm pretty sure they are brothers of Agnes
and the birth certificate of Frederick Andrew, the first child born in Aus, states:
born 14 Nov 1871 Reilly St, Melbourne
registered 21 Feb 1872
father Edward SHATTOCK accountant age 25 born London
mother Agnes SHATTOCK formerly BYRNES age 24 born United States of America
married October 1869 Auckland NZ
sibling Edward age 1 year
I am beginning to get suspicious here
they perhaps had Edward very shortly after the marriage; and they must have somehow come to Aus between Oct 1870 and Nov 1871 - but they are not on the PRO Vic shipping list - I suppose they may have used a false name?
thanks again :D
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How interesting! So:
24 June 1869 Bazett Watkins and Agnes McEwan marry at her mother's house in Auckland, NZ
By 26 October 1869, they had separated (according to the newspaper notice)
30 Mar 1870 their son, Percy Hervey, was born.
[I think the name Hervey probably comes from a relation of Bazett's. Bazett's older cousin, Mary Ann Delamotte, had married Charles Robert West Hervey. CRW Hervey was a colonel in the army by then. Bazett's family tended to use surnames of relatives. Perhaps they had had a brief reconciliation when the child was born, or Bazett had registered the child.]
16 October 1870 Agnes (who was still married to Bazett) married Edward Shattock, using the false name of Burns, to avoid being exposed as a bigamist.
They emigrated to Australia, changing the name of Percy Hervey to Edward Foster. They also altered their marriage date, so that Edward appeared to be their child.
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Thank you to all for your help in uncovering this mystery.... I too am related to Agnes McEwan. She is my 3rd great aunt. I have been trying to unravel this mystery and in touch with a Shattock descendant in Australia so now I can tell him what all of you have helped to find out. Thank you Thank you Thank you!
These ancestors who changed their names.... I have another one and I'm working on that now too...
Angela
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Yes, funnily enough Bazett was registered in England as Arthur rather than as Bazett! However, when he was christened two years later, his father renamed him after his (rich and successful) cousin, Bazett Doveton.
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Hi Louisa,
I am one of the people trying to unravel this mystery. Would it be possible please to obtain a copy of the marriage certificate which you have?
Thank you
Angela
OK, have the marriage certificate in front of me
witnesses
J. M. Barnes very flamboyant squiggles around the initials but I think it's J M (and definitely not BURNS) and
E. Brown
I wonder if the Rev. William John Dean was Presbyterian?
there is no mention of the religion on the cert
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Hi Lucy, Do you have a copy of the full Obituary for Janet McEwan nee Bowman. She is my 3rd great grandmother? If so can you tell me where you found it please?
Thank you
Angela
OBITUARY -- Mrs Isaac McEWAN [ Janet McEWAN ]
["NZ Herald" (Auckland) - 14 June 1904 ]
"Amongst fast thinning ranks of old colonists few were better known in the early days than the late Mrs Isaac McEWAN whose death at the age of 94 took place on Sunday last. Deceased arrived in the "Duchess of Argyle" on October 10, 1842 with her husband, and daughter, born a month before leaving Glasgow.
Her descendants now number 74 comprising 4 * children, 36 grandchildren and 34 great grandchildren.
Mrs McEWAN's first residence was a tent but her husband ( who died about 40 years ago) soon erected a baker's oven and carried on for many years a successful business nearly opposite the present BNZ**.
Mrs McEWAN with the energy that characterised so many of these old settlers continued the business of her husband, successfully for some time.
One son and one daughter still reside in Auckland - Mr Andrew McEWAN of Hesketh's Store in Queen Street, and Mrs OTTO of Collingwood Street. Her eldest son Mr Robert McEWAN was killed by the natives on one of the South Sea Islands many years ago.
The deceased is to be laid beside her husband in the Symonds Street Cemetery this afternoon."
* * * * * * * * *
[Notes: * The obit stated 4 (four) children - even though the d/c records additional "living issue".
** BNZ refers to the "Bank of New Zealand" building. ]
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Hi Angela
Here is the link to the Obituary ("New Zealand Herald" - 14 June 1904) >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19040614.2.26
~ Lu
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Thank you Lucy, I couldn't find it. I really appreciate your help.
Angela :)
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I forgot to put in that I have the NZ death certificate of Janet McEwan
died 12 June 1904 , 6 Ellingwoth St, Auckland
age 84 years
fathers surname Bowman, mother's name blank, father's occupation pattern designer
born Glasgow
in NZ 62 years
married Glasgow age 16 to Isaac McEwan
issue living 4 males aged 54, 52, 50, 48 and 2 females aged 62 and 56
unfortunately they are not named.
Hi Angela
You may wish to take note of Louisa's earlier posting ^ (above) : ;)
Janet's living children at the time of her death (1904) and according the her death record, number more than were mentioned in her Obituary. [Obit. stated "four children" - death record shows 4 sons, 2 daughters. ]
~ Lu
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Thank you Lu.
Angela