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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: CelticAnnie on Sunday 07 August 11 16:27 BST (UK)
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Is there any kind Rootschatter out there who has access to transcripts of Ruabon PR and could attempt to look something up for me?
My ancestor, Anne Davies, was born in Ruabon in 1801; father, Thomas Davies (born 1757); mother Margaret Peplow(e) (born 1760). What I am really interested in is what is given as her father's abode and occupation at this time.
Many thanks.
CELTIC ANNIE.
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Hi Annie -
I'll check when we've had the cup presentation :D
gnu
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Hi Annie
The only Ann(e) that I can find with a father Thomas was b. 10 Jan 1802 (bpt 5 Feb 1802) and her mother was Ann not Margaret. Living Dyninlle Uchaf
Where they non-conformists?
gnu
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hello gnu!
thanks so much for your prompt response -- even though results are disappointing. :'( mum was definitely Margaret, so I don't think this can be my ancestor.
So maybe they were non-conformists then. (how unhelpful of them!). >:( another dead end; but it was worth a try.
once again, thanks for your much-appreciated assistance.
CELTIC ANNIE
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It is a pity that she does not show up in the PR, given that the census statements that she was born at Ruabon looked like the first support in primary sources that could validate her father Thomas Davies's alleged connection with Trefynant, the farm -- and later chapel, burial ground and built-up area -- towards the southern end of the parish of Ruabon. Otherwise there seems to be absolutely no contemporary evidence of such a link, despite assertions to be found elsewhere on and off-line. But the idea of his temporary residence there during the construction of the great canal aqueduct over the Dee nearby remains entirely plausible -- see the information in the Davies thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,431053.0.html) on the Inverness Board.
The chapel possibilities are always worth checking, insofar as possible. But against that it should be borne in mind that just a few years earlier Thomas Davies had children baptised in Chirk parish church; and a couple of years on there are possibles for later siblings of Anne's being baptised in the established church at Shrewsbury.
It may just be worth rehearsing the full known evidence about her date and place of birth, for the record -- beginning with Osprey's first examination of the matter, on the Montgomeryshire board:
…
The 1861 & 1871 give Anne's place of birth as Ruabon, although the 1871 does have Ruabon, Shropshire when it's in Denbighshire
[my emphasis]
For ready ref., here are the census details:
1851 = Edinburgh Canongate, ED 34, schedule 10. (I have not seen an image of the original.) Stated age 50, so implied birth year range 1800-01. PoB transcribed as "Wales, North".
1861 = Edinburgh St Cuthbert's, ED 28, schedule 62. (Not seen an image of the original.) Stated age 58, so implied birth year range 1802-03. PoB transcribed as "Ruabon, Derbyshire".
1871 = West Ham, Essex, RG10/1629 fo.136v p.46. Stated age 67, so implied birth year range 1803-04. PoB "Salop Ruabon".
The middle initial entered for her in 1871 is badly written, but my bet is that the enumerator intended to write a D, not the G transcribed by Anc***ry.com. Best analogy for a poorly formed D that I spotted was the first letter of Domestic Servant, five lines up from the bottom on the preceding page. (What do others think?)
It is rather odd that a middle initial should appear for the first time so late on in her life.
In view of her location in 1871 and her invisibility in 1881, there seems to be a fair chance that she is the Anne Owen whose death in West Ham RD aged 71 appears in the GRO indexes for Q4 1871 -- vol. 4a p.47. But if so, we must take it that the family decided to wave goodbye to her by posthumously overriding the (cosmetic?) age that Anne gave just a few months earlier at census time -- because that death age pushes her implied year of birth back to 1800 (or even into the last three months of 1799).
So, to summarise the census and (likely) death entry evidence, we have a maximum birth-year range of 1799 to 1804.
Rol
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I was initially a wee bit perplexed about your interest in a humble Ruabon look up, Rol :) but, having read the Inverness thread, I now see why you are interested!
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,431053.0.html) if no one clicked the blue link in your post.
It might well have been that Ann(e) was born Ruabon, but maybe christened elsewhere. I note that Telford completed the Chirk aquaduct in 1801 and the Pontcysyllte one in 1803, having been working on the Ellesmere canal since 1793. The construction of the Caledonian Canal began in 1803 as far as I'm aware.
This would suggest that Thomas Davies was in the area, but not necessarily living in the Ruabon parish, from circa 1793 to circa 1803. I'll have a look in both the Chirk and Llangollen PRs.
Do either you or Annie have the baptisms dates and locations of Ann(e)'s siblings? Also, Annie, how did you discover Margaret's maiden name - did you get a death cert from one of the children who remained in Scotland post-1855?
gnu
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Found a strong possible in the Chirk PRs :)
20 Jan 1799 (born 8 Nov 1798) Anne Davies d/o Thomas and Margaret. Abode Penyclawdd.
Penyclawdd is the township that stretches around the west side of the parish and then swings around to the east at the north end, taking in Pentre which borders the Ruabon parish.
Also :
1 Jan 1797 (born 4 Nov 1796) Owen and John Davies (twins) ss/o Thomas and Margaret. Abode - The Sun (Inn - also Penyclawdd/Pentre).
Given the proximity to the canal at this point (and I'm not going to draw any maps, Rol ;D :P ) , I would suggest that this is indeed the Thomas Davies, engineer ( later 'of Inverness')
gnu
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A map is always useful:
This is a link to the location of Pentre:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ek1/
The arrow is pointing to the location of Pentre, where the Sun is/was. The Ruabon parish begins on the other side of the River Dee. The canal is clearly marked by the straighter blue and 'Towing Path'
I like maps ;D
gnu
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Getting more info about this family ::) ::) ::)
An interesting (very small) tree) here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ek5/ and a few Ancestry trees
I assume that both of you have seen these already!
The first ref hasThomas's parents as Owen Davies and Sarah Stockell and born Trefynant, Denbigh 8 Nov 1757 but the Ancestry ones have no parents/sources and ref a William Peploe gedcom file ::)
Note that there is no such person showing up in either the Llangollen or the Ruabon registers for that broad time period. However there is a Trefnant between Denbigh and St Asaph, map ref SJ0570 or
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ek6/
I do not have access to the parish registers of that side of the county. Also, I'm not sure how well sourced the info on that tree is.
gnu
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There is also a Trefnant in Shropshire, which should be considered as margaret is down b. Shropshire:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ek8/
gnu
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Rol
I see from
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,431053.msg3094921.html#msg3094921
that you have transcribed the TD of Thomas, jnr. Here you say:
...and consent of Thomas Davies sometime Tacksman of Conage now residing in Inverness their Father....
We know what a tacksman was but I've not been able to find Conage - are you sure of this word/location?*
gnu
* Added - forget this - I see it was a farm in Ardesier, where the airport is. I must have flown over it many a time :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eka/
Addition 2 - I see on NAS
The lordship of Petty and barony of Connage: rentals, rental books, papers relating to leases and to the management of the estates etc. (1 bundle of 13 papers and 3 vols, 8/25/ 14, 15 & 16).
Ref GD23/8/25
Covering dates 1815-1830
They might have something about Thomas Davies in them.
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A bit more ~
27 March 1800 Marriage of Elizabeth Davies and William Hughes in Chirk by licence. Witnesses - John Jones and Mary Jones
Some of the trees have Elizabeth as Thomas's elder daughter b. 6 Sept 1782, Trefynant but no baptism record in Chirk, Ruabon or Llangollen PRs. There is, however, (on the IGI extracted series) a birth 6 Sept 1782/baptism 15 Sept 1782, St Chad, Shrewsbury - parents were Thomas Davies and Margaret. Oh how I hate sloppy research! Also a submitted marriage of Thomas Davies and Margaret Pepple, Westbury, Shropshire, 13 Feb 1782. Not found but Westbury is not far from the Shropshire Trefnant. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/Westbury/index.html
Very strange info on William - Barrister in London and died/buried Northamptonshire 1836. First child supposedly b. Penyclawdd April 1801 but no baptism in Chirk. Second and third children b. Northamptonshire in 1805/1807
I'm wondering if Thomas Davies was b. in the Shropshire Trefnant and began working on the Montgomery Canal (1792-3) and hence to Chirk and Ruabon via the Ellesmere one.
A nice map of the Ellesmere and Montgomry canal, etc. here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Camlas_ellesmere.png
::)
gnu
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WOW!!!!!! x MILLIONS! :D
gnu -- as Rol already knows -- I'm just a fumbling newbie here(only started a few months back); and so, for me, to watch you two expert genealogists "go at it", pulling together little gems of information gleaned (in many cases) from sources I've never even heard of, and then developing and testing theories, with such grace, skill and apparent effortlessness is just totally awe-inspiring! I just hope that one day I'll become as skilled at this as you both are.
And I end up, after all this, with a ton of new and fascinating information about my ancestors! And all organised for me while I was sound asleep (gnu, I live in US and so am in a different time zone -- hence my lack of earlier input) and served up to me, like a magnificent breakfast, as soon as I woke up and got back on here!
I appreciate that, for you two experts, it is the thrill of the chase that keeps you at it, providing possibly as much reward as the knowledge that you're helping someone less experienced along; but the words "thank you" nevertheless seem hopelessly inadequate as a return for all this work. But thank you! :-* :-* :-* :-* :) :) :) :)
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Hello Annie
Glad I could help :)
It might be worth waiting for Rol to come along in the early hours to see if he's got anything else to add.
I'm fairly sure that the 1799 baptism is your Anne. This is borne out by the baptisms of Owen and John :) I've not followed her sisters who married in Scotland yet. Did any of them die there post 1855? if you don't know, maybe Rol could help out.
gnu
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hello gnu! :)
we know that two of the sisters (Margaret & Mary) emigrated with their spouses (unknown if at the same time) to Quebec, Canada. Rol did considerable work on Margaret & husband Lachlan Mackay and their rather interesting progeny:
www.rootschat.cpm/forum/index.php/topic,458338.0.html
haven't researched the deaths of the other siblings, yet; but presumably you're meaning that there might be some interesting info. to be grabbed from death certificates relating to birth places/dates which might throw further light on the travels and activities of TD senior?! I imagine this unfortunately involves spending money on Scotlandspeople (!); but it seems like an interesting avenue for research and is one I will bear in mind for the future. thanks for pointing this out -- as a newbie, it's not something that had occured to me.
it's interesting to know that two of Thomas and Margaret's children were twins (so some others might have been, too!), given just how many children the two of them did produce! no wonder the poor woman died comparatively young!
thank you again. :)
CELTICANNIE.
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Hi Annie
It's not clear from Rol's thread whether Lachlan and Margaret went to Canada. There's a lot of information but on a quick perusal, he mentions that "at least 3 of their children" went.
If they remained in Scotland and died after 1855, their parents names and occupations would appear on their death certs. I've not even looked for them on the early Scottish censuses yet.
I note that Thomas Davies died in 1840 according to one of those 'dubious trees', although I don't see a death for him in the incomplete OP records on SP.
gnu
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Hi Gnu and Annie,
Rather thought that post of mine would catch your eye, Gnu. ;) Glad to see how you have opened things up. But I am afraid that the purpose of this missive is just to say that I am going to have to defer making a substantive reply for a little, because I am very time-poor this week and mostly have to be away from base. Still, I can assure you both that there is more to tell on the bigger picture -- and I plan to tell it, if others don't first!
Rol
P.S. Gnu, ref. your Reply 11 above, if you get a moment take another look at your inbound PMs for 20 Feb. 2011 and the old Pen y Clawdd, Chirk thread. :)
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Hi Rol
Time is always a problem and it does seem to go faster as one gets older! (I don't keep my PMs for very long so don't have the one dated 20 Feb)
I think that I might have completed my contribution to Annie's requests as I've found a baptism for her and her twin brothers in the Chirk registers. However, this posting concerns William Hughes, husband of Elizabeth Davies and, maybe, should be added to the original Penyclawdd thread but I've added it here to keep things together. Also, I'd rather keep to one persona at a time ;D
One of the Ancestry trees (pearsall) has William Hughes b. Penyclawdd in 1779 with parents John Hughes (esq) (1742-1781) and Mary Jones. There is a baptism in the Chirk PRs -
4 March 1779 (b. 15 Feb) William Hughes s/o John and Mary Hughes of Penyclawdd. No Esq or Mr after John's name.
There is no baptism circa 1742 and no burial circa 1781 in Chirk for John Hughes. There are Hughes in Penyclawdd at this date but, as stated elsewhere, Penyclawdd was a township not an individual dwelling and Hughes is not the most uncommon of names.
[The same tree has John Hughes, b. 1805, Northamptonshire (son of Elizabeth and William and the source of Rol's original interest) but then links to an 1841 census image, HO107/682/1/18/30 which shows a John Hughes, 35, Barrister, born Scotland.]
It also shows the birth of John Hughes (1742)'s father as Daniel Hughes, b. Penyclawdd 3 July 1694. The Chirk PRs are missing between 1687 and 1696. According to the tree, he died 14 August 1754 but, again, no burial in Chirk. Daniel's parents are recorded as John Hughes (1662-1694) and Dorothy Lloyd (1662-1691). This is even weirder as Dorothy was dead 3 years before she gave birth to him, having died in childbirth on 2nd July 1691. Dorothy is of the Lloyds of Plymog, Llanferres.
The St Asaph Notitiae for Chirk (1681) has no Hughes (or ap Hugh/Huw) listed under Penyclawdd.
I am assuming that the info on the early recorded Hughes family has been taken from one of the ancient pedigrees, if not then the information (as far as the Chirk records are concerned) cannot be substaniated.
gnu
added - very much an aside but I expect Rol might be amused ~ while searching the Gale collection for Penyclawdd refs, I discovered that in Sept 1858 my great grandfather (then aged about 11) won the prize at the Chirk Flower Show for the best 6 dessert apples 8)
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Hello, Rol and Gnu!
Rol, this wouldn't have anything to do with the Sun Inn.....would it?! You know, The Sun Inn, where Thomas & Margaret Davies were staying when (as Gnu helpfully mentions above in what might turn out to be a very significant aside) their twin sons were born in 1796. The Sun Inn, where Gadget helpfully reported two years ago in your thread investigating the relationship of the Hughes of Gwerclas with Pen y Clawdd ( www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,390636.0html ) that a certain Mary Hughes, widow, was registered as licencee in 1819?! Mary Hughes -- perhaps widow of John who died 1781, and mother of the William (if the pearsall family tree kindly and helpfully researched by Gnu above has it correct) who married Thomas and Margaret's oldest daughter, Elizabeth, just four years after the twins were born?!!
WOW!!!! This fits together so neatly, it seems almost too good to be true!
And was William Hughes, then, also a canal builder -- who took off to the pretty village of Gayton in Northumberland soon after the marriage (whether before or after the birth of prominent son William -- the IGI has it as before) to participate in the building of the part of the Grand Union Canal that touches there?! (Must admit I've not investigated dating of that project yet; but it's hard to imagine what else might have lured the couple to Gayton). Of course, this is all speculation and will need a lot of checking; but it's very, very interesting!
Rol, how amazing that the Hughes' and the Davies' families became intertwined! This is exciting stuff indeed! And now I'm even more impatient to have you "return to the fold" and report your take on all this! But I know you will when you can. I shall just have to wait.
Kind regards.
CELTIC ANNIE
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Hi Annie
Rol will return :)
I think his ancestors were connected with the theatre or whatever because he does like to pop in and make a grand statement and be off again ;D ;D ;D
He and I are quite friendly so I don't think he will mind me saying this ;)
We have spent quite a while investigating the Pen y clawdd conundrum so I would really like to hear the next instalment :)
gnu
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;D ;D ;D
I have not had the undoubted pleasure of as long an acquaintance with Rol as you, Gnu, so must say nothing!
CelticAnnie