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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: dglvr on Friday 05 August 11 16:18 BST (UK)
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Hi all, I wonder if anyone can help?
My maternal GGG Grandfather was Capt. David Roberts of Llanelly(i). He is in the Lloyd's register and Captained ships such as the /Arthur Gordon/1858-9. m&C/43877/Dreadnought/1862-72. m/68221/Bidsie & Bell/1873-6. Died at Lisbon, 2992/77.
The fact that he died at Lisbon clarifies a family story, but unfortunately this is where I have smacked straight into a wall.
He married Eleanor Avery (of whom I cannot find any trace in any census) and they resided at Seaside in Llanelly. They had at least one son James Parker Roberts who is my GG Grandfather and they moved to Barrow In Furness at some point where Captain Roberts worked for J Fisher and sons
Does anyone know if it was possible that he was buried in Lisbon, or what may have happened to him or his family (wife) as I know that James Parker Roberts married in Barrow and had my GG Grandfather Fred Norman Roberts.
Thanking you in anticipation
Damian Glover
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Hi Damian
Have you found the marriage of David Roberts & Eleanor Avery? It's just that (as perhaps you already know) in the 1851 census of Llanelly (Bryn Terrace) there's a Mary Ann Roberts, mariner's wife, age 26, b. Bristol, Somerset with her 8 month old son, James P Roberts, b. Llanelly, Carmarthen.
HO107 Piece 2468 Folio 169 Page 34
Dazey
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Sorry Damian
Just noticed that was your first post on Rootschat
Welcome! I'm sure you'll get lots of help and support here :)
Dazey
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And then in 1861
RG9 Piece 4085 Folio 11 Page 18
we have at Railway Terrace, Briton Ferry, Glamorgan
David Roberts, 36, Master Mariner, born Llanelli
Mary Ann (his wife), 36, b. Bristol
daughter Emma, 6, b. Llanelli
son Robert Henry Roberts, 3, b. Briton Ferry
all visiting an Elizabeth Williams, a 77-yr-old widow, born Briton Ferry
Was your David born c. 1825?
Dazey
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And in 1881 there's a Robert H Roberts, 22, unmarried, engine fitter at works, b. Llanelly with brother William E Roberts, 19, commercial clerk, b. Llanelly
living at 7 Storey Square, BARROW IN FURNESS
RG11 Piece 4285 Folio 81 Page 79
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You probably have this too - I would imagine it is him:
1861 RG9 Piece 4105 Folio 107 Page 39
Graig house Academy Clifton Swansea
David Roberts 10 yrs pupil b Llanelly
heywood :)
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Free BMD (www.freebmd.org.uk) has a possible marriage in Llanelly Jan-March 1848 where 2 of the partners listed under that registration number (26-656) are David Roberts and Mary Ann EVERY
Possible, I suppose?
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Hi all, thanks so much for your prompt replies. I have the information you gave me and I too thought that everything pointed to him marrying Mary Ann. It even made me doubt the BMD so much that I paid for two marriage certs just in case they has made a mistake. But the second one came back the same.
I really do believe it is Mary Ann but can't seem to find the proof I need! Do you have any idea what the 'Academy' was that he attended age 10?
Thanks again
Regards
Damian
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Which marriage certificates did you buy, Damian, that both 'came back the same'. Did you buy the David Roberts/Mary Ann Every one? Have you got James Parker Robert's birth certificate? What does it say for the mother on that? Guess what I'm trying to ask is where did you get the name Eleanor Avery from?
I would imagaine that the Graig House Academy in Swansea was just a small private school. Looks like it was just 2 teachers - a Baptist Minister and an assistant master - and a total of about 22 pupils
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My maternal GGG Grandfather was Capt. David Roberts of Llanelly(i). He is in the Lloyd's register and Captained ships such as the /Arthur Gordon/1858-9. m&C/43877/Dreadnought/1862-72. m/68221/Bidsie & Bell/1873-6. Died at Lisbon, 2992/77.
A few of questions
Do you know the name of the vessel he captained at the time of his demise?
Do you know the number of his Masters Certificate of service and competency?
Have you a record from Lloyds Captains Register, As opposed to Lloyds Register of Shipping
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Answered one of my own questions
David Roberts on the Bidsie & Bell in 1876, died at sea age 50
Record source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1846 to 1902)
No doubt his body was taken ashore for burial. Try and get hold of the vessels logbook it may give a clue as to where he is buried.
You would need to look in LRS for her official number. Then search with this number at MUN Newfoundland
.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php
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You probably have this too - I would imagine it is him:
1861 RG9 Piece 4105 Folio 107 Page 39
Graig house Academy Clifton Swansea
David Roberts 10 yrs pupil b Llanelly
heywood :)
How can this be him? David was an adult, married, and a mariner at this time! :-\
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Hello Damian :)
Welcome to Rootschat.
Your relative may have been buried at Sea rather than taken back to land for burial.
Kind Regards
Morgan
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WOW, thanks all of you. I'll get on to that a soon as I get home (got to love a Friday night shift) Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the LRS?
Thanks again
Damian
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Sorry, I get it now!!! Must be tired.
Thanks
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You probably have this too - I would imagine it is him:
1861 RG9 Piece 4105 Folio 107 Page 39
Graig house Academy Clifton Swansea
David Roberts 10 yrs pupil b Llanelly
heywood :)
How can this be him? David was an adult, married, and a mariner at this time! :-\
::) I thought it was the son- sorry! With a name like Roberts born Llanelly there is a strong possibility it isn't him.
Thanks morganllan.
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just a small typo...it was 10 yr old JAMES Roberts who was a scholar in Swansea in 1861 ;)
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Oh you are kind - thanks :)
I've had a lot on my mind ;D nice things though.
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Could you explain please
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Hello seaweed :)
This link gives more info on Copyright :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Hi,
Are you sure Eleanor and Mary Ann aren't the same person? I've heard some odd nicknames over the years. My grandmother was Mary Ellen but some people called her Nellie, for example. Eleanor to Mary Ann would be a reach but you never know - have you looked for birth records for either of them? Also, when was your gg grandfather born? Does it match the birthdate for David and Mary Ann's son?
If Eleanor is a separate person, perhaps she is missing from the census records because she went to sea with her husband - occasionally the captain's wife would accompany him on his voyages. Perhaps if you can find him on board his ship during a census, you will also find her?
I agree with Seaweed, you should try to find the crew agreement and log if it exists. You can also look up the official number at the Crew List Index Project - http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php. Looks like it might be ON 68221, a brigantine out of Barrow built 1873. The Bidsie & Bell was around until 1925, so at least you know then that David didn't go down with the ship.
Plugging the number into the MHA search engine it appears that the crew agreement for 1877 is in the Lancashire records office! Good news for you, if you are in the UK. I would definately go have a look. They also have 1878. The agreements are filed by year the voyage finished, so you may need to check 1878 as well. The log book may not have survived, but there would certainly be a mention of the demise of the captain in the crew agreement itself - look on the last few pages for notes from the local Britsh consul.
Jennifer.
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Thanks Jennifer,
You have actually clarified my thoughts. I too thought it may be a middle name or something like that. I also thought about seeing if the wife may be in a workhouse or something too!
I live in Leeds so it's only an hour or so to Preston. Unfortunately the record office is closed until October, so I'll have to wait til then. Thankyou everyone for rejuvenating my search.
Regards
Damian
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Free BMD (www.freebmd.org.uk) has a possible marriage in Llanelly Jan-March 1848 where 2 of the partners listed under that registration number (26-656) are David Roberts and Mary Ann EVERY
I would suggest that this marriage cert might be worth buying, if you haven't already done so?
Dazey
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On it Dazey, thanks for the recommendation. Ordered it today.
Cheers, fingers crossed
Damian
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Thanks all, the plot thickens!!
I went for a different approach, after hitting 'The Wall' As I stated my GG Grandfather James Parker Roberts b:1850 Llanelli to Capt David Roberts & Eleanor Avery. Moved to Barrow In Furness.
I have Eleanor as the mother on James' birth cert. I located the aforementioned William E (which is for Every, a typo?) Roberts and it seemed too much of a coincedence. I ordered William's birth cert which gives his parents as David Roberts (Master Mariner) & Mary Ann Roberts (formerley Every)
This ties in with every census I have found with my GG Grandfather on i.e. 1851 Census of Llanelli which has Mary Ann Roberts ( Mariners wife with her son James P Roberts at 8 mnths old)
I am also in the process of ordering the marriage cert of Mary Ann Every & David Roberts which is in 1848.
The thing that is baffling me is this lack of Eleanor Avery but everything tying in with Mary Ann Every, is she the same person??
Thanks for looking
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After an afternoon of trawling through census' etc I have come to a conclusion....
In the 1871 Census we have a Mary Ann Roberts (Sailors wife) with her family including James P Roberts (GG Grandfather) residing at 7 Storey SQ, Barrow In Furness.
The address sounded familiar, sure enough on my GG Grandparents wedding cert. James' was residing at 7 Storey SQ!! Gotcha!!
But why on earth does his birth cert state Eleanor as his mother? I even ordered 2 copies thinking it may have been a mistake.
Regards
Damian
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did you order your copies from the GRO? If so, they do not have the originals, but copies of quarterly returns & mistakes were made at times in copying.
You could try the Carmarthenshire registrars who now hold the orginals although it may involve ordering a 3rd copy
http://www.carmarthenshire.gov.uk/english/living/registrars/pages/familyhistory.aspx
By the way, the present spelling is Llanelli, but it used to be spelt Llanelly. Think it changed around 1974.
;)
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You may have this all ready but David Roberts Mates Certificate gives his date of birth as 25 Apr 1825.