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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Gen List Lass on Monday 01 August 11 09:29 BST (UK)
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Edward Mostyn THELWELL married Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton in the Sept Q. of 1873 at Ormskirk, Lancashire, England.
Sarah was a widow, late husband Henry a lawyer. She was born in Montego Bay Jamaica in 1829, possibly making her 14 year older than her Thelwell groom....
All I can find about Edward is his birth June Q. 1844 in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales. Cannot find him on any census between 1851-1901 when Sarah declares herself a widow.
Cannot find a firm death for him between his marriage in 1873-1901.
Cannot find either of them on the 1891 census.
I have found several references in newspapers about an Edward Thelwell being called to the Bar and tutoring youngsters in Kensington but without a middle name I don't know if this is the correct person. Sarah's first husband was also a lawyer so possibly a link there.
Any information about this elusive man would be very welcome
Gen in NBL England
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1851 census:
Reference HO107, Piece 2503, Folio 547, Page 25
Priory, Wrexham
Thelwell, Bevis Heywood Head M 30 Solicitor & Coroner b Ruthin, Denbighshire
Thelwell, Sophia Rebeca Wife F 26 b Shropshire
Thelwell, Edward Mostyn Son M 6 Scholar b Wrexham
Thelwell, Arthur Bevis Son 2 Scholar b Wrexham
Jones, Elizabeth Servant F 23 Dress Maker b Wrexham
Samuel, Elizabeth Servant F 17 House Servant b Wrexham
Hopley, Sarah Servant F 16 House Servant b Stockton, Cheshire
Owen, Rupul Mostyn Brother-in-Law M 18 Sailor b Shropshire
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Hi
This is strange as he seems to appear on the 1871 listed in Portland RG10/2006/75/15
Male Convict Establishment, Portland
Edward Mostyn Thelwall, convict, 26, single, Clerk in Post Office, b. Marylebone
It's such an unusual name and correct age.
gnu
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Hi,
Perhaps a copy of his marriage certificate would be useful.
Nanny Jan
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Father with more sons in 1871:
Reference RG10, 5651, 90, 9
Alyn View, Burton, Denbighshire
Thelwall, Bevis H Head Widower M 50 County Coroner b Llanfair
Thelwall, Llewellyn Son M 16 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Thelwall, John B Son M 13 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
EDIT - Originally thought I was lookin at 1861 :-[
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Criminal Registers 1866
Edward Mostyn Thelwall
Trial - 19 July 1866 Cumberland
larceny of money out of a post letter - imprisoned penal servitude for 5 years
gnu
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Lots of write ups in the papers about the crime and trial.
He pleaded not guilty to the theft of the £5 from a registered letter posted in Edinburgh and which was addressed to Mrs Creer, New Brighton, Birkenhead.
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An interesting character, mm ::)
He's Edward Mostyn Thelwall on the marriage index. I think that I'd get the cert to check up the information if it were my ancestor/interest.
gnu
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Thank you so much for the 1851 and 1861 census, now I know his parents.
I'd found a sniff of scandal about this family in the online newspapers. His stepson Collingwood Hilton Fenwick was given a years hard labour in 1888 for stabbing an "unfortunate". The police thought they'd caught Jack the Ripper!
So Ed Mostyn Thelwell married Sarah the older widow in 1873 only 2 years after his release from 5 years jail...... I wonder how on earth they met???????
On the next censuses after their marriage she is described as married but he isn't with her.... I wonder if he was in jail again?
Fascinating! Many thanks to all who are helping with this slippery fellow.
Gen in NBL England
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I don't see anything more in the criminal records or newspapers. There is a case listed in the Nat Archives in 1855 - Thelwall v Thelwall about the sale of property in Llanelidan and Llanfair DC
Bevis Heywood Thelwall and others v Twyford Thelwall and others.
gnu
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Marriage:
28 July 1873 St Pauls, Southport
Edward Mostyn Thelwall full age, Gentleman Bac, Southport
Sarah Hilton Fenwick Full age Wid, Southport
Fathers: Bevis Heywood Thelwall, Coroner for County of Denbigh
and Samuel Hilton, Gentleman
Wit- William Davies; Eveline Fenwick
by Licence
Gentleman? ;)
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
maidmarion
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Thelwell v Thelwell interesting! Looks like a bit of family feuding perhaps....
Thank you for finding that.
Gen in NBL England
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Maid Marion you have just saved me £10 and a 3 week wait, thank you for your knowing where to find this.
I've found almost anyone with a decent suit could call themselves a gentleman in those days :-) My g g grandfather was a servant/grocer yet he called himself a gentleman when he retired :-*
Gen in NBL England
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National probate index.
Bevis Heywood Thelwall of Rossett died 11 Aug 1892. Probate London 4 Oct. to Frances Thelwall widow. Effects £28. 17s 8d
Deaths Sep 1892
Thelwall Bevis Heywood 73 Wrexham 11b 161
Marriages Jun 1842
OWEN Sophia Rebecca Oswestry 18 235
THELWALL Bevis Haywood Oswestry 18 235
Marriages Sep 1881
Hughes Francess Liverpool 8b 194
THELWALL Bevis Heywood Liverpool 8b 194
Are you looking for any more on the Thelwalls, or is it the Fenwick side that it your line.?
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In 1901 Sarah is 72 yrs and listed as a widow, living Llangollen.
RG13/5249/11/13
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Interesting entry for Sophia Rebecca (Edward's mother) on the 1841:
Llys House, Oswestry
HO107/915/5/35/20
Rebecca Owen, 15
Tryphena, 15
Rupert, 7 ( I had a look at the 1851 image and it's definitely Rupert not Rupul)
Llewellyn, 5
Julia, 5
Jessie, 4
All b. Shropshire
gnu
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A possible on the IGI (and pilot) for [Sophia] Rebecca
Baptism 4 July 1824 Oswestry Rebecca Owen d/o William Owen and Rebecca
Not found anything worthwhile on a search for Tryphena - a few Ancestry trees but nothing much apart from marrying a Tanner and emigrating to Australia. Her death record in Malvern, Victoria only has her parents as unknown Owen.
I'm thinking that Rebecca's surname might possiibly be Mostyn
gnu
Added - A strange patron submission on the IGI
Rebecca Mostyn-Owen b. about 1777, Woodhouse, Shropshire
Parents - William Mostyn-Owen and Rebecca Dodd
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Entry on the North Wales BMD
Death 1861 Hope
Rebecca Sophia Thelwall
GRO index ~
Rebecca Sophia Thelwall
March quarter, 1861, Wrexham v 11b p 263
gnu
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Found Edward in 1861~
James Street, Rugby
RG09/2212/81/18
Ann May, w, 37, Hallaton, Lancs
Edward Mostyn Thelwall, brder, 18, booking clerk, b. Wrexham
John Knunkey, brder, 23, general office clerk, b. Truro
Looks like Rebecca Sophia died before the 1861 census:
Rossett
RG09/4277/61/11
Bevis Heywood Thelwall, widower, 41, solicitor, b. Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd
Llewellyn, 5, b. Gresford
John Bulkeley, 3, b. -do-
Emma Baker, servant, 16, house servant, b. Chester
Not sure if there's much more to find about him and his parents :-\
gnu
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Possibly more on the family.
These are Thelwall names that appear in the St Giles Parish Registers.
374 Wrexham Vol 28 Baptisms 1836-1851
374 Wrexham: Arthur Bevis, Bevis, Bevis Heywood, Edward Mostyn, George, Hannah, Mary Augusta, Rebecca, Sophia Rebecca, William;
http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/index.html
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Marriages Sep 1881
Hughes Francess Liverpool 8b 194
THELWALL Bevis Heywood Liverpool 8b 194
Iwonder if this is the same Frances Hughes ???
1881 Alyn View ,Gresford - Marford & Hoseley, Flint, Wales
Bevis Heywood THELWALL Head W Male 60 Llanfair, Denbigh, Wales County Coroner (Off)
Frances HUGHES Boarder U Female 38 Gresford, Denbigh, Wales Domestic
Family search. They must have been in London at some time,
Bevis Moslyn Thelwall
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Jun 1842
SAINT MARTIN IN THE FIELDS,WESTMINSTER,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 03 Jun 1842
Father's Name: Bevis Heywood Thelwall
Mother's Name: Sophia Rebecca
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00145-3
Source Film Number: 561149
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Wilcoxon
I noticed that, I think he married his housekeeper! His first wife died in 1855 the same year he had the big court case In 1858 he went bankrupt according to online newspapers.
So no wonder he died in 1892 leaving only £ 28 17s 8d!
Gen in NBL England
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Hi
You may also be interested to know that your Thelwell family must also have links to Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd and the Curate there Edward Thelwell, as I have just come across the baptisms of two of his children, one being a Bevis Thelwell bap Nov 13 1784 ;)
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His first wife died in 1855 the same year he had the big court case In 1858 he went bankrupt according to online newspapers.
His first wife died in 1861 see my posting - did you missed it!
Entry on the North Wales BMD
Death 1861 Hope
Rebecca Sophia Thelwall
GRO index ~
Rebecca Sophia Thelwall
March quarter, 1861, Wrexham v 11b p 263
gnu
His son John Bulkely was 3 in the 1861!
gnu
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gnu
Bevis was a widower on the 1861 census
Reference RG10, 5651, 90, 9
Alyn View, Burton, Denbighshire
Thelwall, Bevis H Head Widower M 50 County Coroner b Llanfair
Thelwall, Llewellyn Son M 16 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Thelwall, John B Son M 13 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
And here is Sophia's death from FreeBMD:
Deaths Mar Q. 1855 THELWELL Sophia Chorlton 8c 395
Gen in NBL England
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Hi
You may also be interested to know that your Thelwell family must also have links to Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd and the Curate there Edward Thelwell, as I have just come across the baptisms of two of his children, one being a Bevis Thelwell bap Nov 13 1784 ;)
In 1851 Bevis Thelwall age 65 occupation Half Pay Commander RN, was staying with his brother the
Reverend Edward Thelwall age 70 at Rectory House Llanbedr.
Over the centuries the Thelwall family name appears in the pedigrees of some of North Wales most prominent families - Middletons, Mostyns, Goodmans, Salisburies to name a few. One gets the sense that by the 19th century they were something of a spent force. An interesting family to research :)
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gnu
Bevis was a widower on the 1861 census
Reference RG10, 5651, 90, 9
Alyn View, Burton, Denbighshire
Thelwall, Bevis H Head Widower M 50 County Coroner b Llanfair
Thelwall, Llewellyn Son M 16 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Thelwall, John B Son M 13 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
And here is Sophia's death from FreeBMD:
Deaths Mar Q. 1855 THELWELL Sophia Chorlton 8c 395
Gen in NBL England
Sorry Gen but you're probably wrong . Look at the facts ~
The Chorlton one was not her . They were in Rossett in 1861 - I had already listed them in the 1861 census. I think you've missed a whole lot of postings that are relevant.
Rebecca Sophia was registered in Hope according to the NWales BMD - this is where one would expect anyone living Rossett to be registered. Chorlton was in the Manchester area.
The son, John, was aged 3 in 1861.
gnu
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Bevis was a widower on the 1861 census
Reference RG10, 5651, 90, 9
Alyn View, Burton, Denbighshire
Thelwall, Bevis H Head Widower M 50 County Coroner b Llanfair
Thelwall, Llewellyn Son M 16 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Thelwall, John B Son M 13 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Surely what you have quoted here is the 1871 census (RG 10 ).
The 1861 census is RG 9.
John was three at the time of the 1861 census.
Therefore if Sophia was his mother she cannot have died in 1855.
It seems most likely she died just before the census was taken, in the 1st quarter of 1861, as per gnu's posting.
Jennifer
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Thank you, Jennifer. :)
I think Gen missed the comment that KGarrad added :
Father with more sons in 1871:
Reference RG10, 5651, 90, 9
Alyn View, Burton, Denbighshire
Thelwall, Bevis H Head Widower M 50 County Coroner b Llanfair
Thelwall, Llewellyn Son M 16 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
Thelwall, John B Son M 13 Scholar b Rossett, Denbighshire
EDIT - Originally thought I was lookin at 1861 :-[
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Wilcoxon
So no wonder he died in 1892 leaving only £ 28 17s 8d!
Gen in NBL England
Liverpool Mercury Saturday, August 13, 1892
Mr Bevis H Thelwell coroner of East Denbighshire , an office he had held for upwards of 40 years died at his residence , Rossett. He was a solicitor etc etc.
The Wrexham Advertiser Saturday, March 28, 1885
Inquest before Mr Thelwell , coroner into the death of a child at Minera,
Bevis H Thelwell still held his post for many years, before 1885 there are many inquests that he held in the Wrexham area.
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Just come to read the terrific whodunnit you have all assembled!
The "back story", touched on by Maidmarion in Reply 22 and Heather in Reply 25, is perhaps almost off-topic (and already well known to Gen?); but if anybody wants to take a look at the related pedigree material in PACF and Powys Fadog, as copied into the FamilySearch wiki"Community Trees" Welsh pages, this would be a good point to start browsing:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I100324&tree=Welsh
"How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished". ;)
Rol
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In 1851 Bevis Thelwall age 65 occupation Half Pay Commander RN, was staying with his brother the
Reverend Edward Thelwall age 70 at Rectory House Llanbedr.
1841
Stanley Place, Holy Trinity , Chester.
B Thelwall 55 Navy ? N
Mary Thelwall 19 N
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I'm starting to wonder whether Bevis Heywood had another short-lived wife between Sophia Rebecca and Margaret Hughes.... just a thought.
Gen n NBL England
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Hi Gen List Lass,
Let me know if you need any lookups from the Llanbedr PRs.
maidmarion :)
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Confirmation of the 1861 death:
Excerpt from the Wrexham and Denbighsire Advertizer, Saturday 23 March 1861
DEATHS
On the 18th inst., at Rossett, in her 38th year, Sophia Rebecca, the wife of Bevis H Thelwall, esq., coroner for the county of Denbigh.
Lots of other refs to the family in the 19th century collection :)
gnu
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Forget another wife, I've just found where I've made my mistake, and confirmed by gnu. Rebecca Sophia died 1861 just before the census.
Otherwise the tree is solid.
Gen in NBL England
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With ref. to Gnu's Reply 16 on p.2 of this thread -- viz
A possible on the IGI (and pilot) for [Sophia] Rebecca
Baptism 4 July 1824 Oswestry Rebecca Owen d/o William Owen and Rebecca
Not found anything worthwhile on a search for Tryphena - a few Ancestry trees but nothing much apart from marrying a Tanner and emigrating to Australia. Her death record in Malvern, Victoria only has her parents as unknown Owen.
I'm thinking that Rebecca's surname might possiibly be Mostyn
gnu
Added - A strange patron submission on the IGI
Rebecca Mostyn-Owen b. about 1777, Woodhouse, Shropshire
Parents - William Mostyn-Owen and Rebecca Dodd
-- the same secondary source as I cited above in Reply 30 ties Sophia Rebecca reasonably firmly into the Owen of Woodhouse family. But it does so via a different page (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I97206&tree=Welsh) which is not properly linked to the Thelwall pedigree as a cross-reference in the database.
Following the link from there upwards to her father reveals the full list of her siblings -- 13 of them, including dates of birth. Of those in the house with (Sophia) Rebecca at Oswestry in 1841, Tryphena Owen is shown as b. 17 Oct. 1825, Rupert Mostyn Owen as b. 15 Nov. 1832, Julia Owen and Llewelyn Mostyn Owen as twins b. 4 July 1836, and Harriett Jessie Owen as b. 12 August 1838 (surnames repeated for the benefit of the search engines ;) ).
If one clicks on the name of her husband Bevis on Sophia Rebecca's own page it becomes apparent that the source used for her marriage was Joseph Morris's 19th c. collection of Shropshire pedigrees, now kept at Shrewsbury Record Office.
(Morris has a secure place in my pantheon of genealogical heroes as the man who saved one of the best 17th c. pedigree collections focused on NE Wales, by making a painstaking MS copy of the Salusbury Book of Pedigrees in the library at Wynnstay just a few years before most of the house, including the priceless contents of the library, burned to the ground in 1858. His two-volume copy is now NLW Wynnstay MSS. 143-4 -- and I never tire of citing it!)
Rol
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gnu - you wrote this yesterday
Excerpt from the Wrexham and Denbighsire Advertizer, Saturday 23 March 1861
DEATHS
On the 18th inst., at Rossett, in her 38th year, Sophia Rebecca, the wife of Bevis H Thelwall, esq., coroner for the county of Denbigh.
Lots of other refs to the family in the 19th century collection
Did you mean the online newspapers at the Gale site? If so, I cannot find any publication called Wrexham and Denbighshire Advertiser.
Gen in NBL England
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I'm starting to wonder whether Bevis Heywood had another short-lived wife between Sophia Rebecca and Margaret Hughes.... just a thought.
Gen n NBL England
Margaret ???? his wife was Frances Hughes.
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wilcoxon
Yes Frances, not Margaret.
Getting a bit off topic here as I'm only interested in the union of the Thelwells with Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton.....
But it's been a real roller coaster of a ride through the Thelwells and Wales!
Gen in NBl England
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gnu - you wrote this yesterday
Excerpt from the Wrexham and Denbighsire Advertizer, Saturday 23 March 1861
DEATHS
On the 18th inst., at Rossett, in her 38th year, Sophia Rebecca, the wife of Bevis H Thelwall, esq., coroner for the county of Denbigh.
Lots of other refs to the family in the 19th century collection
Did you mean the online newspapers at the Gale site? If so, I cannot find any publication called Wrexham and Denbighshire Advertiser.
Gen in NBL England
If you search the publications by location and click on Wales and then click on Wrexham, you'll find it.
It's indexed as the Wrexham Weekly Advertiser but it changes it's title. Just click on it and search for Thelwall and then People.
I didn't make it up. ;D
gnu
PS - I see that I wrote Denbighsire instead of Denbighshire
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With ref. to Gnu's Reply 16 on p.2 of this thread -- viz
A possible on the IGI (and pilot) for [Sophia] Rebecca
Baptism 4 July 1824 Oswestry Rebecca Owen d/o William Owen and Rebecca
Not found anything worthwhile on a search for Tryphena - a few Ancestry trees but nothing much apart from marrying a Tanner and emigrating to Australia. Her death record in Malvern, Victoria only has her parents as unknown Owen.
I'm thinking that Rebecca's surname might possiibly be Mostyn
gnu
Added - A strange patron submission on the IGI
Rebecca Mostyn-Owen b. about 1777, Woodhouse, Shropshire
Parents - William Mostyn-Owen and Rebecca Dodd
-- the same secondary source as I cited above in Reply 30 ties Sophia Rebecca reasonably firmly into the Owen of Woodhouse family. But it does so via a different page (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I97206&tree=Welsh) which is not properly linked to the Thelwall pedigree as a cross-reference in the database.
Following the link from there upwards to her father reveals the full list of her siblings -- 13 of them, including dates of birth. Of those in the house with (Sophia) Rebecca at Oswestry in 1841, Tryphena Owen is shown as b. 17 Oct. 1825, Rupert Mostyn Owen as b. 15 Nov. 1832, Julia Owen and Llewelyn Mostyn Owen as twins b. 4 July 1836, and Harriett Jessie Owen as b. 12 August 1838 (surnames repeated for the benefit of the search engines ;) ).
If one clicks on the name of her husband Bevis on Sophia Rebecca's own page it becomes apparent that the source used for her marriage was Joseph Morris's 19th c. collection of Shropshire pedigrees, now kept at Shrewsbury Record Office.
(Morris has a secure place in my pantheon of genealogical heroes as the man who saved one of the best 17th c. pedigree collections focused on NE Wales, by making a painstaking MS copy of the Salusbury Book of Pedigrees in the library at Wynnstay just a few years before most of the house, including the priceless contents of the library, burned to the ground in 1858. His two-volume copy is now NLW Wynnstay MSS. 143-4 -- and I never tire of citing it!)
Rol
You and your Salusburys, Rol! I think my Pulestons and Glyndwrs are in there as well.
I think Gen might have overlooked this piece of information about Edward's mother so bringing up again :)
gnu
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gnu
I found this newspaper Newyddion Cymreig, is that the one you meant?
Lots of Thelwell articles BUT I don't read Welsh, the only ones in English aren't very interesting, all the good bits are in Welsh:-)
What did I overlook in his mothers notes? I'm really only interested in the Fenwick-Hilton-Thelwell link, not the whole lineage of Thelwell's in Wales:-)
Just fascinated that the family had solicitors and criminals on the same twig.
Gen in NBL England
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No it's not -
Click on Wales and then Wrexham and then Wrexham Weekly Advertiser
Then:
*put Thelwall in the search box (to the left)
* then click on People and it will reduce the number of entries
* go to the Saturday 23 March 1861 entry - about half way down the list
*scroll down until you get the highlighted name in the Deaths column.
It's title is slightly different by then
Sorry - I really don't know why you can't find it. You must use the system in a differenct way.
gnu
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I get the option of Wales then 4 counties one of them being Denbighshire then it lists one newspaper. Wrexham doesn't come into it at all.
Never mind, I have loads of info on the family now, enough to satisfy most.
Thanks for all your help
Gen in NBL England
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Just to put the record straight - this is what I get ;D
Snipped to avoid copyright issues!
gnu
Added - Interestingly, some libraries offer only about half the number of documents to the one I use. Universities ( I've used both Newcastle and London-LSE) and some county libraries (including Lancashire) tend to offer the full database but others (including Newcastle City Library) offer the smaller one.
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Gen
As Gnu's post explains, I think the problem you found was that the library you have been using had only subscribed to the first edition of the Gale 19th Century British Newspapers database. When the second edition came along not everybody decided that they had the budget for a sub upgrade. As Gnu also says, Liverpool County Library is one of those with the second version -- and Wrexham was certainly omitted from the first edition. Last time I looked (admittedly some time ago now), the National Library of Wales still only had the first edition. I believe that the BL has a third version in preparation, this time in partnership with BrightSolid (the Thomson subsidiary that runs ScotlandsPeople and FindMyPast, and also not long ago bought GenesRe from ITV). See this item (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8690919.stm) published on the BBC website in May.
As to this thread more generally . . .
Edward Mostyn THELWELL married Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton in the Sept Q. of 1873 at Ormskirk, Lancashire, England.
…
All I can find about Edward is his birth June Q. 1844 in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales.
...
Any information about this elusive man would be very welcome
OK . . .
Forget another wife, I've just found where I've made my mistake ...
Otherwise the tree is solid.
Excellent . . .
With ref. to Gnu's Reply 16 on p.2 of this thread -- viz
[ … ]
-- the same secondary source as I cited above in Reply 30 ties Sophia Rebecca reasonably firmly into the Owen of Woodhouse family.
...
If one clicks on the name of her husband Bevis on Sophia Rebecca's own page it becomes apparent that the source used for her marriage was Joseph Morris's 19th c. collection of Shropshire pedigrees, now kept at Shrewsbury Record Office.
…
Rol
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I think Gen might have overlooked this piece of information about Edward's mother so bringing up again :)
gnu
But . . .
gnu
...
What did I overlook in his mothers notes? I'm really only interested in the Fenwick-Hilton-Thelwell link, not the whole lineage of Thelwell's in Wales:-)
...
and . . .
…
Getting a bit off topic here as I'm only interested in the union of the Thelwells with Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton.....
But it's been a real roller coaster of a ride through the Thelwells and Wales!
Ah. Right. Understood . . . now. ;D And you are quite correct to say that some of us did stray off-topic, especially if one construes what you wrote in that opening post with due care and attention: "… any information about this elusive man would be very welcome" (my italics).
But you know how it is -- on an ancestry-oriented forum, once those hounds are off the leash they just kinda assume the OP is hunting more than one generation. Basic canine instinct. So if they really get running on the scent, the boss has just got to blow that whistle loud . . . and early. ;)
Anyway, no harm done -- it has been good exercise, and it is excellent that you too enjoyed that "real roller coaster of a ride through the Thelwells and Wales". With any luck we have all put together some Google hits for future searchers; let's hope haec olim meminisse iuvabit. :)
Rol
P.S. Talking of Google et al., and in the interest of future successful search-term selection, N.B. that once you cross the Cambrian frontier it is almost invariably Thelwall -- in the absence of typos in the source text.
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Gnu and Rol
Ahah, now I see why I am only seeing Denbighshire and NOT Wrexham - I am using Newcastle City Library's version of the online 19th century newspapers. I couldn't understand why I was seeing something different to Gnu, thought I had lost the plot!
There has been a thread on the Northumbrian list this week about remote logging in to UK libraries for the newspaper archives, maybe I should try other libraries i.e. the ones with the full version of the newspaper databases..........
Even though the input has been a bit off-topic from my original thread, I've really enjoyed it and it has been my first foray into Welsh resources. Not had cause to explore them before.....!
I realised early on that I had to enter "Thelw*ll" in any search box, otherwise I missed lots of juicy tidbits.
Gen in Northumberland UK
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I have read the topic in 2011 with interest. Frances Hughes who he married in 1881 was a servant in his hh in 1871 aged 29. Prior to that in 1861 she was at home with her widowed father.
Between 1862 and 1873 she had 5 children Harriett Heywood Thelwall born Birkenhead 1862, Francis Arthur Hughes born 1863 Liverpool, Caroline Rosa Thelwall born 1864 Birkenhead, Mary Jane Thelwall born 1867 West Derby, Liverpool and Bevis Herbert Thelwall born 1873 Toxteth, Liverpool.
During this time she never married until 1881 when she married Bevis Thelwall.
As his first wife died in 1861, can anyone throw any light on why they did not marry until 1881.
In 1871 census I have found some of the above children
Harriet Thelwall, boarding in Birkenhead with George and Elizabeth Hulse.
Caroline is under Hughes boarding with George & Mary Dodd
Mary Jane now under name of Hughes is the niece and living with James and Sarah Taylor. I cannot find Francis or Bevis.
I know what happened to Francis as he went on to marry and has descendants.
What I am really interested in, as I said is the lack of marriage but obviously children, 1861 - 1881
Many thanks for any info.
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Re question as to why they didn’t marry until 1881 - perhaps they didn’t feel the need to marry. It’s not something anybody could tell you with any certainty given the timescale
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Update
I now know what happened to Edward Mostyn THELWELL born 1844
He left his wife Sarah late Fenwick and nee Hliton and went off to Australia. He possibly took his cousin with him.
THELWALL E M Mr. aged 32 arrived in Melbourne MAY 1881 on the ship POTOSI from a British Port.
probably Edward Mostyn THELWALL
With him was this person :
THELWALL J B Mr. aged 30 probably John Bulkelely THELWALL, son of Richard
both ages are incorrect, EM was 5 years older and JB was 9 years younger
26 Mar 1889, John Bulkeley THELWELL died in Melbourne aged 29
By 1891 Edward M. had elevated himself to Major Thelwall. From The Mildura Cultivator VIC Australia newspaper, Major Thelwall was captain of the Planters Cricket Club and kept the accounts! He had sent a sum of money to the local hospital and it was received.
1899 he died - 13 Apr 1899 Mildura district hospital, Victoria, Australia, inflammation of the bowels.
PHELWALL Edw Mostyn
Father Unknown Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 44 (sic - he was 55)
Death Place Mdura Year 1899 Reg. Number 6928
He was buried in a paupers grave with no headstone in Nichols Point Cemetery, Mildura, Victoria, Australia
Probate - THELWALL Edward Mostyn of Ravensworth Mildura n the colony of Victoria gentleman died 13 Apr 1899 Admin (with will) (limited) London 1 Jan. to William Goode Davies solicitor the attorney of Edith Lawrence spinster Effects £293 11s
His deserted wife must have know of his death as on the 1911 census she is listed as a widow for the first time.
Vee in NBL UK
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He was married to my GGG Grandmother Sarah ( nee Hilton, Maynard Fenwick), had no idea this had happened to her. How sad after losing her husband Henry Fenwick.