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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Taesma on Monday 01 August 11 04:08 BST (UK)
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Hello,
My first post here!
I've been banging my head against this brick wall for awhile, and I'm hoping someone has some ideas. I'm searching for the birth of Thomas Edwin Moore in or around London. He emigrated to the US in 1881 to take command of the Salvation Army here.
According to his MI (he died in Harper, Kansas) he was born 16 Apr 1840. He married Ellen Maria Hogg in 1859. I have their marriage registration-they married in Greenwich where she lived-which states his father's name was also Thomas Moore.
The problem is I can't find his birth, nor his mother's name.
There is a different Thomas Edwin Moore, born 1840 in Stepney with father Thomas and mother Rhoda. This is not my Thomas, however, as I have found this family in various censuses and they did not leave London.
Where might I look for this information? Is there any document that would have his mother's name or his place of birth?
Thanks for any help you can offer,
Beth
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Hello there and Welcome to Rootschat.
Have you found him on any censuses ,before or after marriage?
I can see that on his marriage cert in 1859 he is described as a hairdresser and his father as a farmer.Witnesses are George and Ann Ellen Lilley(who may or may not prove useful!)
Carol
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Hi
They had at least one baptised child baptised in the Church of England.
Births Dec 1860 MOORE Anne Ellen Maria Clerkenwell 1b 547
Deaths Dec 1861 Moore Anne Ellen Maria Greenwich 1d 430
18th August 1861 St Mary Magdalene Peckham
Ann Ellen Maria Moore parents Thomas Edwin and Ellen Maria, Greenwich father's occupation perfumer?
Thomas gives his age as full on his marriage in 1859. If he was born in 1840 this would not be correct. Certainly his wife was born in 1840.
Births Dec 1840 Hogg Ellen Maria Greenwich 5 222
1881 census RG11 313 folio 40
11 Victoria Street Hackney
Ellen M. Moore 40 Head Married Greenwich
Thomas Moore 18 Son Hairdresser
William Moore 13 Son Wilts
Alfred Moore 12 Son Wilts
Annie Moore 11 Daughter Wilts
Nelly Moore 10 Daughter Swaraton?
Albert Moore 2 Son Aldershot
Caroline Moore 5 months Daughter Forest Gate
Mary C. Hogg 42 Sister Single Greenwich
Which should make the family easier to find on earlier censuses - at least the 1871 but doesn't seem to?
Have you requested a biography on Thomas Edwin from Salvation Army archives?
Regards
Valda
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I didn't as far as 1881- but certainly can't see them in 1861 or 71?
So dad had already gone to the US by 1881 leaving mum and the kids in England.
Carol
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Hi
This man
Wikipedia
'The American Rescue Workers is a Christian denomination and charity in the United States. The organization was founded in 1882 by Thomas E. Moore as a splinter group from The Salvation Army in response to financial disagreements between Moore and Salvation Army founder William Booth.[1] In 1885 the organization officially adopted a charter as the Salvation Army of America, but in 1913 it was renamed American Rescue Workers and has functioned under this name since that time.'
New York Times 1889
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F60B11FA3D5F15738DDDA80A94D9405B8984F0D3
The Salvation Army Archives should know quite a bit about him.
Regards
Valda
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Oh dear ::)
Having no luck whatsoever in finding them in 1861 or 71-maybe he had taken the family to the US for a reccee visit?
Carol
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It's possible his birth wasn't registered, many weren't until legalities were tightened up in the 1870s. But you should be able to find a baptism.
Alternatively he might not have been born with those names, perhaps his "father" was really a stepfather.
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Marriage George Lilley & Ann Elizabeth Hanks 13/5/1856 St.Alphege Greenwich witness Thomas Moore
Jennifer
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Marriage George Lilley & Ann Elizabeth Hanks 13/5/1856 St.Alphege Greenwich witness Thomas Moore
Jennifer
Ah, so they were best men for each other then!
Carol
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Hello!
This is quite a puzzle. I have looked at the marriage entry you mention but if it is the correct one, then they were not being very truthful - Thomas claimed to be of age which at that date would have been 21 but if he really was born in 1840, he would only have been 19. He also said he was a hairdresser and his father was a farmer.
In 1871, I found a Thomas aged 33 (so born c 1838) born Cottenham co Cambridge who was a Jeweller. His wife was Ellen aged 30 born Hempstead co Gloucester and they were living in Lambeth (South London) but had no child in the house. Did they have children in England? That might help track them down in the Census returns of 1861 and 1871. They might even have been in the 1881 Census if they didn't emigrate until May onwards.
Might he have reversed his names? Where were they after they married? Can the Salvation Army help with records of his joining and emigration - they may have an address for him in England.
Do hope you can locate them.
CJFC
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Taesma,
Could I ask the following please.
1. When Thomas died in Kansas what age was given on the death record/report.
2. Why do you feel he was born in the London area, we only have a birth date, no location.
3. Do you have any of the children's birth certificates confirming mmn and fathers name and occupation.
The reason for asking is we have no sight of him from marriage onwards.
John
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An article in a book records his birth in 1840 in Worcestershire.
John
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Oh, my! I'm interested in following this thread, too. I am the great granddaughter of Caroline Moore, later McGinnis, the 5 month old daughter mentioned in the 1881 census. I've visited the family home at Forest Gate and wish I knew more about the Moore family.
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Hi mrtbksla
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Beth, who started this topic, only posted once and did not reply to the others, so we don't know whether the information was useful to her research.
As long as she hasn't changed her email address she should recive email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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(Hmm, I replied to this earlier but it doesn't seem to have taken...I'll try to remember what I said ;D)
I'm so glad to get this post! Shortly after I posted my original query my computer had a nervous breakdown and I lost bookmarks, links etc. And I couldn't remember where I'd posted this. :-[
I wanted to say thanks to all who answered, thank you much for the help!
mrtbksla--I would very much like to correspond with you--I had just about given up on finding any Moore relatives. I have a lot of info on the family. Alas, still no birth for Thomas though. :(
His grave is on Findagrave though. He is buried in Harper, Kansas.
Hope to hear from you!
Beth
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Hi Beth
Welcome back ;D
If there is information you want to exchange privately with mrtbksla such as living people or email addresses, you can use the personal message system but both of you need to have a post count of 2 or above.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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Dear Beth,
Yes, I think we definitely need to be in touch with each other. I'm not sure whether you are a family member or a researcher. In either case, I'm interested. My knowledge of the Moore family is very spotty, and I've learned a lot online. I wasn't aware of the Salvation Army association until recently, though I know he was a devout evangelical Christian.
I have the death notice, stating that Thomas E. Moore died on January 9, 1898 at 57 years old. I still don't know his birthday. I have very yellowed newspaper clippings describing the event. And I have the Bible that he had on the pulpit when he died--as well as the bloodstone ring that belonged to his wife, Ellen Maria Hogg Moore.
My father was Carrie's (Caroline Alice Moore McGinnis's) grandson, and she was a very important presence in his life until she died when he was ten. My father and my grandmother, who hailed from Omaha, Nebraska, are long gone. My grandmother died in 1997, and my father in 2007. The only one of Carrie's siblings that my father knew well was his Uncle Will, who lived in Lincoln, Nebraska. I'm not sure exactly when he died, but I suspect it was the early '60s.
I can't lay my hands on it now, but I have Caroline Moore's birth certificate somewhere, giving the address at which she was born in Forest Gate, and listing her father's profession as "Professor of Religion." I know I have also seen another document somewhere that described him as a "jewel merchant." I was told that he had some connection to Tiffanys in New York.
Beyond that, I'm in the dark. I've always wanted to know more of the story.
Best wishes,
Carol
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Well, this is exciting! (Gee, I love genealogy. 8))
Yes, I'm related. Annie, Caroline's sister, was my great grandmother. She died in Brooklyn sometime between 1890 and 1900. We haven't been able to pin that down yet. We've been unable to find a death cert or anything and she's not buried where most of the others at that time are (with her husband's family, I mean).
My grandfather was William Erwin Jackson, b 1889. Annie also had a daughter named Caroline, who died at 8 months old.
I can't believe you have those keepsakes, that's fabulous!
Yes, the Rev. Moore was quite a fellow, he apparently was quite an entrepreneur who made a bit of a fortune in the US and Canada but then gave it up when he joined the SA.
I recently discovered another child of theirs, born in Canada named Geraldine, but I think she may have died young, as I can't find her anywhere else. Do you know anything of her?
By the way, that birthplace listed for Nelly in the 1881 census that no one can read is Scranton, Pennsylvania. :D
Well, I will PM you so that we can communicate further. So so happy to "meet" yo!
And for anyone else still reading this, very glad I found this site again. I have more questions, heheheh...
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Hi Beth & Carol
I'm so pleased you have found each other via Rootschat.
Now you both have a high enough post count, you can exchange personal details such as email addresses on the personal message system. The pm system isn't designed for attaching & sending images, so establish email contact and swap away.
Dawn