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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ChristinaJ on Saturday 30 July 11 16:31 BST (UK)
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My great great grandfather was William Redding Born 1821) and he married Ellen Kelly (Born C1819 Ireland). Cannot find any trace of their marriage. I know that George, their one son was christianed in St Catherines RC Church in 1851 so assume they married in RC Church, although William was Baptist. They had two other children Elizabeth (born C 1847) and Thomas (C1842), and cannot trace their registration on BMD. Any help would be appreciated.
And finally, on the marriage certificate for George, he married Sarah Ann Davis again at St Catherines RC Church in 1873, William is listed as a Soldier, as he is on George's birth certificate, and Georges marriage lines for his second marriage. Any ideas of how I can trace him being a Soldier?
Many thanks. Regards Christina
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I could only find one possible on Familysearch -Advanced Search..William Redding/Reading to an Ellen
William Reading to Ellen Cotter 9th June 1839 All Souls ,Saint Marylebone,London...it`s very doubtful I admit, but could Ellen have been marrried before ?....can I ask ,if you don`t have a marriage ???...how do you know Ellen was nee Kelly ?
allan
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Hi,
A possible birth for Thomas,
Thomas RIDDING Dec Q 1842 Birmingham 16 312
and one for Elizabeth,
Elizabeth READING Jun Q 1847 Birmingham 16 328
Is this the family in 1861?
1861 RG9/2148 f.109 p.6 + f.110 p.11 Birmingham
Froggets Buildings, Bromley? St
Ellen READING Head Un 42 Ireland
Elizabeth " Daur Un 14 Gen Servant Warwickshire Birmingham
Thomas READING Son 19 Labourer Warwickshire Birmingham
George " Son 8 Nailmaker " "
Where are they in 1851? The best I could find was transcribed on Ancestry as EDDWG ::)
HO107/2053 f.514 p.49 Birmingham St Martin
Alison St
?EDDING
Wm Head M 44 Chelsea Pensioner Canterbury
Ellen Wife M 33 Ireland
Josp Son U 15 Labourer "
Wm Son U 13 " Portsmouth
Elizth Daur U 5 Birmingham
Th?? Son U 2 "
Some of the 1851 doesn't seem to fit but in 1871 it looks like Ellen is living with her son William.
If the 1851 is right and William Jnr is born in Portsmouth, I found this RC marriage which would fit but Ellen's name is CAREY rather than KELLY. I wonder who was Josp? Joseph? mother or if he was Ellen CAREY's son?
William REDDING Dec Q 1837 Portsea Island 7 261
Ellen CAREY
Marriage: 14 NOV 1837 R C, Portsea, Hampshire
Gulielmum REDDING
Father: Georgium REDDING
Mother: Elizebeth
Ellenam CAREY
Father: Thomae CAREYELIZ
Mother: Elizebeth
I can't see the image so wonder if the transcriber just started writing Elizebeth straight after CAREY.
Birth
William REDDING Jun Q 1838 Portsea Island 7 151
GRO Regimental Birth Indices
William REDDING
Regiment: 90th Light Infantry
Place: Portsmouth, Emgland
Year: 1838
Volume: 1256
Page: 51
Gulielmus REDDING
Birth: 29 MAY 1838
Christening: 06 JUN 1838 Portsea-Rc, Portsea, Hampshire
Father: Guliemi REDDING
Mother: Helenae KERRY
I found this William REDDING who although was born in Kent seems to have moved to Warwickshire
William REDDING No: 464
By trade a Labourer
Born in Canterbury Kent
Attested for the 90th Regiment Light Infantry at Coventry, Warwick on the 3rd May 1826 at the age of 18
Discharged 23rd September 1845 aged 40
Of course if it isn't the right 1851 census then all this could be wrong, so I'm sorry if it's just a wild goose chase.
Regards,
Daisy
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Thanks for your reply Daisy, I'll have a look at this. It definitely says Kelly on the birth certificates. Yes on the 1861 Census it is Ellen with her children, Thomas, Elizabeth and George. William was definitely born in Birmingham C1821. Back to the drawing board, but thanks for the other stuff really is appreciated.
Regards
Chris
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I could only find one possible on Familysearch -Advanced Search..William Redding/Reading to an Ellen
William Reading to Ellen Cotter 9th June 1839 All Souls ,Saint Marylebone,London...it`s very doubtful I admit, but could Ellen have been marrried before ?....can I ask ,if you don`t have a marriage ???...how do you know Ellen was nee Kelly ?
allan
Thanks for your reply. I know it is Kelly as I've my great grandfathers birth certificate, which gives Ellen Redding nee Kelly. William was definitely born in Birmingham. Digbeth/Deritend area, all my maternal side come from the area. Thanks for trying to help. Regards. Chris
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Hi,
I hope you don't mind me asking but how do you know that the William married to Ellen was born in 1821 in Birmingham, do you have them together on any census?
Have you seen the christening record for your GGrandfather, is that George? and does it show the mother's maiden name? I just wonder if KELLY could have been misheard or mistranscribed on the birth certificate.
I realise that my 1851 etc theory might be wrong but just because William Snr was born in Canterbury he enlisted in Warwickshire so that might have been his family home, his father could also have been a soldier.
Sorry for all the questions but the more info we have the more we might be able to find. Do you have a baptism for the William born in 1821?
Daisy
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Hi Daisy, no worries, pleased that you are trying to help me.
Right here goes. William was born 1821 to Samuel and Elizabeth (Brooks). He was baptised at Canon Street Meeting House (Baptist), Birmingham. I've a copy of the birth certificate of William and Ellen's son George born in 1851 and it says Ellen Redding formerly Kelly.
Hope this is of help.
Regards
Chris
:)
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Ok, I can find William's birthdate and I can see him with Samuel and Elizabeth in 1841 he is a die sinker. I think I can see this William, a die sinker in 1851 and 1861 but married to a Caroline,
1851 HO107/2050 f.25 p.43 Harborne, Staffordshire
York Street
READING
William Head 29 Journeyman Die Sinker Warwick Birmingham
Caroline Wife 30 " "
William Son 4 Scholar " "
Caroline Daur 2 " " "
Alfred Son 11mo Saffron Harborn
Emily WALDRON Servant 14 Domestic Servant " "
1861 RG9/2165 f.72 p.41 Birmingham, Warwickshire
15 Regent Roade
READING
William Head 39 Stamper? piercer & Die Sinker Birmingham
master employing 2 men ? boys & 22 girls
Caroline Wife 40 "
William Son 14 Employed by father "
Caroline Daur 12 Scholar "
Alfred Son 11 " Staffordsh Harborne
Mary A Daur 8 " " "
Samuel Son 7 " " "
Ann E Daur 5mo Birmingham
I'm sorry but I still can't see how you know that William son of Samuel and Elizabeth is the father of George, there are alot of William REDDING/READINGs out there ???
What address does it show on George's birth certificate?
Daisy
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Hello Daisy, thanks for your reply. As you say there are so many William Redding/Readings out there, and you should see the names in my Hanson and Jobbins family!. So here goes with William being son to Samuel and Elizabeth (Brooks).
Samuel (born 1784 Father Samuel, mother Mary Guest)
Elizabeth Brooks.
Married 20/8/1808.
Children:
Samuel - 1809
John - 1810
Rebecca - 1812
Elizabeh - 1814
Alexander Whitworth - 1819
William - 1821 (ancestral line)
Lydia -1823 to 1825
James185
Thomas - 1827
Mary Ann- 1830
I've I've the marriages and offspring for the others too.
George (son to Elliam and Ellen) was born on 21st September 1851 and the address give is 17 Court (back to back houses) Allison STreet, which is Digbeth/Deritend. All of the Reading family more or less came from that area.
Don't know who the William married to Caroline is.
It gets even more complicated when you find ancestors immigrating to Oz, Nz, Canada, USA, Italy and then moving from NZ to Canada!
Who said anestry was easy!
Really do appreciate your help.
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I'm sorry if I'm being dumb :-[ I understand that you have a William b.1821 to Samuel and Elizabeth but I still don't know why you think he is definitely George's father.
I think that the fact that he is a die sinker in 1841 seems to make him more likely to be the William married to Caroline in 1851 and 1861.
In 1851 William and Caroline are living in York St. Harborne, Staffordshire next door to John and Rebecca POWELL. In 1861 an Elizabeth READING Mother-in-Law is living with John and Rebecca POWELL still in York St. Harborne, Staffordshire. If Rebecca is the daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth READING then doesn't it seem more likely that the William READING next door in 1851 is her brother rather than another random William READING.
Possible marriages for William and Caroline are,
William READING Dec Q 1845 King's Norton 18 559
Caroline BENNETT with same details.
William READING Dec Q 1847 Birmingham 16 535
Caroline KIRK with the same details.
If I were you I would get the above certificates to check who those William's fathers were, just to make sure. Harborne was in Kings Norton Registration district so I think that's the most likely.
The William b. Canterbury and Ellen that I found are living in Allison Street in 1851 doesn't that make them more likely to be George's parents?
I hardly like to suggest it, as I understand from experience how frustrating and upsetting it can be to find you have followed the wrong line, especially if alot of time and effort has gone into the search, but I always think it's better to be sure.
Please don't shoot the messenger, my thoughts could be wrong :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi Daisy, thanks for your email. Really do appreciate another pair of eyes on this William Reading. I'm a member of the local Family History Group, been going for 3 years now, and the chap who helps us was bewildered by not being able to find William in Birmingham and Ellen Kelly marriage. I've been able to help others in the group and had good results, but this one has really stumped me.
Will definitely order the certificates to see where I stand. This is the thing about finding your family history you can bark up the wrong tree.
Think what made me think it was Ellen from Ireland was that my mum always said that her mum had said that George had the Irish about him, and used lots of Irish phrases, but this may be just one of those things.
I also think that George being married in a RC Church to Sara Ann Davis made me think he was of Irish descent, but the children were christianed in the Anglican Church.
I know that George is defiinitely my great grandfather because of the census, with my granddad and great uncles on them.
I'll let you know what happens, and again I really do appreciate your help.
Regards
Chris
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Hi,
Yes, please let us know how you get on with the certificates.
In both 1851 and 1861 the Ellen I found was born in Ireland. I wouldn't discount the William REDDING - Ellen CAREY marriage in Portsea, her father could have been in the forces and she could have been born in Ireland.
It would be interesting to see the images of the Catholic records of their marriage and William Jnr's christening. Ellen's name seems to have changed from CAREY to KERRY. Even more interesting would be to find George's christening to see if it shows Ellen's maiden name.
The William Snr's Army record shows X his mark showing that he was illiterate if Ellen was as well records for their name would only be as good as the person writing them could hear and/or spell them correctly. Different accents in different areas :-\ I don't think CAREY, KERRY and KELLY are too different for a mistake to be made.
Daisy
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Hi,
Have George's birth certificate, shows William (Soldier) and mother Ellen formerly Kelly. Also have marraige of George to Sarah Ann Davis, again William (soldier).
As you say, certificates are only as good as who ever wrote them out, and of course if they couldn't read or write they wouldn't be able to check what they had put.
I'm off to St Chads Cathedral soon to have a look at the records.
What is so sad is that the majority of Willliam's family were all jewellers, heaven knows what happened to him not being able to read or write. In fact some of the Readings are well know as master jewellers here in Birmingham and had patents issued (have these), and one of his great nephews became Lord Mayor of Birmingham. He must have been the black sheep of the family.
Speak soon
Chris
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Remember the illiterate William in the army married to Ellen CAREY/KERRY wasn't the William born in Birmingham 1821. As he did join the army in Coventry, Warwickshire he could possibly be from the same wider family or he might not be related to the Samuel & Elizabeth REDDING family at all.
If the family of William b.1821 Birmingham were jewellers I think even more that the William married to Caroline is the right one because of his occupation, die sinker:
die-sinker: a person who engraves dies used to stamp designs on coins or medals
It seems quite a skilled job connected to the jewellery business, googling brings up lots of examples eg;
http://www.whdarby.co.uk/history.html
http://www.heraldic-arts.com/street.htm
Daisy
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I know this is a little late, but, in one of "Daisypetal's" postings it's suggested that an 1847 marriage for W. Reading could be to Caroline Kirk. I can definitely state that Caroline Kirk married Samuel Bowcott at St. Thomas in Bath Row, Birmingham on 18th Oct 1847.Regards, John.
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Thanks for your email. Appreciate your help on the Reading/Redding query. Now sorting, have appointment at St Chads Cathedral in Birmingham who keep the records of Roman Catholic births/marriages/deaths to sort this marriage out.
Regards
Chris