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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: CHERAN on Friday 29 July 11 23:14 BST (UK)
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I have found
Westlake Richard farmer of 14 acres
with wife
Catherine on 1851 cenus living in Grindhill, Bratton Clovelly in 1851
His birth is recorded as Northlew Devon and Catherine born about 1786 in Were Gifford
with them is Richard's brother John Westlake aged 68 an Ag Lab born 1783 in Northlew Devon.
I am searching for their Baptisms and Catherine's last name and believe they were married in about 1810 Northlew Devon
Richard's father I believe is John and mother Grace and I am searching for their marriage as well.
Cheran ;)
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There's only one family I can find with sons Richard and John Westlake living Northlew. Their parents were John Westlake and Grace Glass. John's Christening is 1783 which fits the date you have for him but Richard's Christening is 1793 and as the 1851 census gives his age as 61 I think it's the correct record.
I can't find anything about Richards marriage to Catherine other than the date you gave but I wouldn't take that record as definite because normally brides married in their own parish. That's not to say it's wrong but maybe you should look around Were Gifford. Catherine appears to be a few years older than Richard I wonder if that might help you find her birth.
On the 1841census they have two children living with them Charity age 15 and James age 8 I wonder if they had other children?
Margaret
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What Children do you have for Richard/Catherine?
Is the reason you think they Married c 1810 that they had a Child born c 1811?
There is this Marriage on the IGI;
Richard WESTLAKE/Catherine WESTLAKE, 27 Dec 1818, Okehampton, Devon
Familysearch Pilot has this;
Catharine WESTLAKE, Christened 13 July 1786, Weare Giffard, Devon
Mother CATHARINE Westlake
Trish :)
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Child Chrisitened Okehampton, Devon, to a RICHARD/CATHERINE;
MARY 30 June 1821
1861 Census JAMES Westlake born c 1832, Bratton Clovelly, Devon, is described as the Son of Richard/Catherine.
RG9/1465/22/1
1851 Census he is a Servant in the Horn Household in Sourton, Devon
1851 Census CHARITY Westlake is born c 1827, Oakhampton, Devon and is a Servant in Bratton, Clovelly
Cant find Christenings for Charity/James or any other Children to Richard/Catherine other than the possible Mary above.
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There's only one family I can find with sons Richard and John Westlake living Northlew. Their parents were John Westlake and Grace Glass. John's Christening is 1783 which fits the date you have for him but Richard's Christening is 1793 and as the 1851 census gives his age as 61 I think it's the correct record.
I can't find anything about Richards marriage to Catherine other than the date you gave but I wouldn't take that record as definite because normally brides married in their own parish. That's not to say it's wrong but maybe you should look around Were Gifford. Catherine appears to be a few years older than Richard I wonder if that might help you find her birth.
On the 1841census they have two children living with them Charity age 15 and James age 8 I wonder if they had other children?
Margaret
Margaret
Thanks for taking the time to look this for me...
Other siblings I have for Richard and John are George bap 25 Feb 1786, William 14 July 1788,
then James in 13 November 1791, Anne, 1 November 1795 and Simon 1798... I wondered if they all in the same family with John Westlake and Grace Glass....
I have found William on 1851 census with wife Susanna in at Boasley Cottage Bratton Clovely and looks like this is very close to Grindhill..... (2 daughter with William and Sussana... Grace aged 22 dressmaker and Sussana Gerry a widow aged 30.. would it be possible to place them in 1841 census?
Thanks for your help!!!
Cheran :D :D
Is it possible to see if t
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It is the same family that I found. All the names and dates correlate.
On the 1841 William and Susanna are living at the same address with 4 children. William age 9, Ann age 20, Susanna age 15 and Grace age 13.
Margaret
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Thanks Margaret & Trish ....
Now to find any marriage and deaths for all the Children
eg Susanna listed as a widow in 1851 so looks like she married a "Gerry"
Your info is a big help....
Cheran 8)
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It is the same family that I found. All the names and dates correlate.
On the 1841 William and Susanna are living at the same address with 4 children. William age 9, Ann age 20, Susanna age 15 and Grace age 13.
Margaret
Would it be possible to find a marriage for Sussana Westlake to a John Gerrey/Gerry.... I have found a death a John Gerrey 31 June 1847 Bratton Clovelly, which would seem to fit the time line.
Cheran :)
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It is the same family that I found. All the names and dates correlate.
On the 1841 William and Susanna are living at the same address with 4 children. William age 9, Ann age 20, Susanna age 15 and Grace age 13.
Margaret
Couple of deaths I think I have found
Richard Westlake.....26 January 1863 B. Clovelly age 69
Catherine " .....2 Sept 1864 B. Clovelly age 79
William Westlake..... 18 Feb 1867 B. Clovelly age 80
Sussana " ..... 24 June 1867 B. Clovelly age 74
James Westlake ..... 27 May 1876 Grindhill Farm age 44
then I found
a Catherine Westlake ...16 February 1875 Grindhill age 20 m
Louisa Ann ... 23 April 1891 Grindhill age 20
Jane .... 7 April 1898 Grindhill age 67
Could James of Catherine & Richard have married a Jane? and had 2 girls before his death?
Also found
John Westlake 3 May 1858..... Bratton Clovelly age 75 who would fit timeline of John recorded with Richard and Catherine on the 1851 census...
Wondered what your opinion's were?
Cheran :)
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Child Chrisitened Okehampton, Devon, to a RICHARD/CATHERINE;
MARY 30 June 1821
1861 Census JAMES Westlake born c 1832, Bratton Clovelly, Devon, is described as the Son of Richard/Catherine.
RG9/1465/22/1
1851 Census he is a Servant in the Horn Household in Sourton, Devon
1851 Census CHARITY Westlake is born c 1827, Oakhampton, Devon and is a Servant in Bratton, Clovelly
Cant find Christenings for Charity/James or any other Children to Richard/Catherine other than the possible Mary above.
Trish
I wonder if you could find a chrsitening for an Emanuel Westlake ... on 1861 census has hs birth at Beaworthy devon.... He is in the next household to William and Susanna so looking to see if he is connected to this westlake line.
Cheran ;)
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Marriage of Susanna Westlake to John Gerry 4th quarter 1844 Okehampton.
There's no sign of a birth for Emmanuel Westlake. However I did find him on the 1841 living Northlew.
!841 census Northlew
John Pincombe 20 M S
William Curtice 15 M S
Emmanuel Westlake 14 M S
John Brock 10 M S
Mary Blatchford 14 F S
There was no address so I looked at the family before this group and living at Saw Mill were:
John Glass 40 Sawyer or farmer it's difficult to read as there's a line through the word.
Maria 35
William 12
John 7
Amelia 8
Thomas 3
It looks like the group Emmanuel was with were the servants of the Glass family.
Margaret
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Thanks Margaret. I had just been putting in the bits and pieces into the tree so Susanna marriage is a great help!
I was just looking at the info I have on Richard Westlake the son of Simon Westlake (brother of Richard, John and William from above).
Richard was recorded in 1851 census as being a Mill servant at the Wigdon Mill in Beaworthy owned by a John Kimber and I have in the family records that John Westlake of above was married to a Grace Kimber...
(Ps Richard is with his Uncle George (brother of Simon, Richard, John, and William) in Beaworthy)
It's a bit spooky that Emmanuel was a servant with John Glass given that the brothers listed above Mother is a "Grace Glass"!
Can you see a death for Grace Westlake nee Glass and her husband John... Has to be after 1798 as that is the year Simon was born.
Thanks again for your help!!!!!
Cheran
Seems like they all stayed in the general area until Simon and Richard came to Australia...
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Hi Cheran
I can't find a death for Grace although there is one in the Okehampton registration area that covers Northlew. Grace Westlake 1st quarter 1838.
The only way you'd find out if it's the right one is to buy the certificate I'm afraid s there seems to be a few Grace Westlake's in the area.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Margaret
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Margaret
I have hit a complication with regard to John Westlake and Grace Glass
apparantly the records show John and Grace marrying 28/3/1767...
a John Baptised 31/10/1770....
a John Baptised 4/8/1771...
that in itself is not a problem as I know they often kept using the "names" when children died...
then we have
John Bapt 12/12/1783 a gap of 12 years?
George Bapt 26/02/1786
William Bapt 14/07/1788
James Bapt 13/11/1791
Richard Bapt 27/10/1793
Ann Bapt 1/10/1795
Simon Bapt 21/10/1798
I believe Grace age was 16 when she married and so she is born in about 1751... that would seem ok but the year of birth I have for John is Dec 1756 so he would have only been about 10 when they are married????
Grace would have been about 47 when Simon was born in 1798 which would seem old but not without being in realms of possibility.
I wonder if you can shed any light on the marriage eg do we have the wrong date of birth for Husband John and are there any other children bap between John of 1771 and John of 1783 that could belong to the family.....
Cheran ::)
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It's difficult to say whether there are two John and Grace Westlake families living in Northlew during that period without being able to prove it as not all records have survived.
I'm sure I found another family with similar children's names but no Richard so the earlier births of the two John's could belong to them.
When you say you found the birth of John Dec 1756 are you sure it's a birth and not a Christening?
Leave it with me and I'll see if I can work it out.
Margaret :)
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Marriage of Susanna Westlake to John Gerry 4th quarter 1844 Okehampton.
There's no sign of a birth for Emmanuel Westlake. However I did find him on the 1841 living Northlew.
!841 census Northlew
John Pincombe 20 M S
William Curtice 15 M S
Emmanuel Westlake 14 M S
John Brock 10 M S
Mary Blatchford 14 F S
There was no address so I looked at the family before this group and living at Saw Mill were:
John Glass 40 Sawyer or farmer it's difficult to read as there's a line through the word.
Maria 35
William 12
John 7
Amelia 8
Thomas 3
It looks like the group Emmanuel was with were the servants of the Glass family.
Margaret
Margaret
Tracking Emanuel, I found him on 1861 census with wife Grace B, Children Susanna, Mary Ann, and Harriet. I di search on IGI site.... looks like him in Cleveland Ohio, on 1880 census there with wife Grace, daug Mary Anna and dau Harriet plus a few other children.
There is also a submitted entry which has him born 1826 Devonshire, and died 1893 Ohio with spouse name Grace Bayley born Devonshire, died 1895 Ohio....
I wonder if Grace Glass married to John Westlake and John Glass married to Maria are bros and sister, with possibly another sister Anne Glass married to a Samuel Locke 1863???
Cheryl
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Margaret
I have hit a complication with regard to John Westlake and Grace Glass
apparantly the records show John and Grace marrying 28/3/1767...
a John Baptised 31/10/1770....
a John Baptised 4/8/1771...
that in itself is not a problem as I know they often kept using the "names" when children died...
then we have
John Bapt 12/12/1783 a gap of 12 years?
George Bapt 26/02/1786
William Bapt 14/07/1788
James Bapt 13/11/1791
Richard Bapt 27/10/1793
Ann Bapt 1/10/1795
Simon Bapt 21/10/1798
I believe Grace age was 16 when she married and so she is born in about 1751... that would seem ok but the year of birth I have for John is Dec 1756 so he would have only been about 10 when they are married????
Grace would have been about 47 when Simon was born in 1798 which would seem old but not without being in realms of possibility.
I wonder if you can shed any light on the marriage eg do we have the wrong date of birth for Husband John and are there any other children bap between John of 1771 and John of 1783 that could belong to the family.....
Cheran ::)
Hi Cheran,
I think you have a mistake here -wrong marriage
John WESTLAKE = Grace KIMBER 31 Mar 1783 Northlew
Cheers Kris :)
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Emanuel appears to be the son of Robert WESTLAKE and Mary DAW. They are in Beaworthy in 1851
HO107/1885 Folio 55 Page 17
Robert is a farmer formerly mason aged 64 b Northlew and Mary 63 b Beaworthy. Daughter Mary Ann 25 b Beaworthy a Glover and Kaziah a granddaughter aged 5 b Beaworthy
Cheers Kris :)
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Margaret
I have hit a complication with regard to John Westlake and Grace Glass
apparantly the records show John and Grace marrying 28/3/1767...
a John Baptised 31/10/1770....
a John Baptised 4/8/1771...
that in itself is not a problem as I know they often kept using the "names" when children died...
then we have
John Bapt 12/12/1783 a gap of 12 years?
George Bapt 26/02/1786
William Bapt 14/07/1788
James Bapt 13/11/1791
Richard Bapt 27/10/1793
Ann Bapt 1/10/1795
Simon Bapt 21/10/1798
I believe Grace age was 16 when she married and so she is born in about 1751... that would seem ok but the year of birth I have for John is Dec 1756 so he would have only been about 10 when they are married????
Grace would have been about 47 when Simon was born in 1798 which would seem old but not without being in realms of possibility.
I wonder if you can shed any light on the marriage eg do we have the wrong date of birth for Husband John and are there any other children bap between John of 1771 and John of 1783 that could belong to the family.....
Cheran ::)
Hi Cheran,
I think you have a mistake here -wrong marriage
John WESTLAKE = Grace KIMBER 31 Mar 1783 Northlew
Cheers Kris :)
Kris
Now you have really thrown me!
I have a John Westlake bap 21 Dec 1783 married to a Grace Kimber on the 4 January 1813 Northlew....
(from previous family research so could be wrong....)
so do we have 2 marriages with the same name?
Are Simon's c 21/10/1798 parents John Westlake and Grace Kimber?
Where do Grace Glass and John Westlake marr 28 Aug 1767 fit? are they the parents of John Westlake marr to Grace Kimber?
Are Grace Glass parents possibly Edward Glass and Margaret Trennaman with a brother John Bapt 23/6/1730 and also a sister Ann Glass married to a Samuel Locke 25/9/1763... Edward and Margaret are married 8/4/1730?
Cheran ::) ::)
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Emanuel appears to be the son of Robert WESTLAKE and Mary DAW. They are in Beaworthy in 1851
HO107/1885 Folio 55 Page 17
Robert is a farmer formerly mason aged 64 b Northlew and Mary 63 b Beaworthy. Daughter Mary Ann 25 b Beaworthy a Glover and Kaziah a granddaughter aged 5 b Beaworthy
Cheers Kris :)
Thanks Kris for this. how did you find that Robert was Emanuel's father....
Cheran :D
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I have a John Westlake bap 21 Dec 1783 married to a Grace Kimber on the 4 January 1813 Northlew....
(from previous family research so could be wrong....)
so do we have 2 marriages with the same name?
Cheran ::) ::)
Cheran that is
George WESTLAKE= Grace KIMBER not John
Cheers Kris :)
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I don't know who John is. There are 3 John's born about the right time in Northlew, according to submitted entries, which you will need to verify and find out if any of them died young.
10 Mar 1755 parents John and Jane
5 Dec 1755 parents Robert and Mary
23 Jan 1757 parents John and Susanna
It seems to me that John = Grace GLASS have nothing to do with it. As they didn't marry until 1867 they could not possibly be John's father.
I am afraid we are back to you needing to order in these Northlew films to your local LDS FH Lbrary to try to sort this out.
Cheers Kris :)
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Thanks Kris....
ps I did a typo John Westlake married Grace Glass 28 August 1767 (that is meant to have come from North Lew records office)
Thanks for trying for me though...
Cheran ???
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I did a typo John Westlake married Grace Glass 28 August 1767
Yes Cheran that marriage is right, but as you can see they are not the parents of someone born in the mid 50's. - the one which was wrong is where you mentioned John WESTLAKE = Grace KIMBER 4 Jan 1813. It was George WESTLAKE who married Grace KIMBER not John
Cheers Kris :)
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Thanks Kris
I am still confused though and will have follow with with micro films from North Lew when time permits..
I have Changed George to be married to Grace Kimber 1813 which makes sense as on the 1851 census John of 1783 with his brother Richard and his wife, John is listed as single not a widow...
I am now working on the idea that John and Grace Kimber would be the parents of
John 1783, George 1786, William 1788, James 1791, Richard, 1793, Anne 1795, Simon, 1798
all born North lew...
but then I have Margaret's info which seem to confirm it was John and Grace Glass... I don't think I know now.
I think I wish I had this one in the too hard basket?
Cheran :-\
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Yes I think that is right Cheran. George and Grace appear in Beaworthy in 1841 and 1851. Good Luck.
Cheers Kris :)
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I would be pleased to receive any information on the descendants of
Simon Westlake who emigrated to Australia in 1857
His father I believe was John Westlake and mother Grace unknown
The researcher by the name CHERAN seems to be asking all questions and enquiries that I am interested in. Thank you for your time Cheers Susan
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Susan
I may be able to help a little with simon's descandants....
You will have to do at least 3 posts and then you can send me a Personal Message and I may be able to send on a little more...
What line from Simon are you researching?
Cheran 8)
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Hi Susan
I Think I have found the link in the family tree...
Cheran :)
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Cheran.
Post 2
Thank you very much for your reply. What I should have said was that I was after the ancestors of Richard Westlake born 1835, who was married to Mary Ellis 1834 (her ancestors too). Richard and Mary (Ellis) Westlake had 8 children at Normanville in South Australia, and their son Richard Henry is my great-grandfather.
Thank you
Susan
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Cheran.
Post 3
Richards parents were Simon Westlake 1801 and Mary Worth 1811. Simon's parents were John Westlake 1761 and Grace unknown.
Richard and Mary (Ellis) Westlake had 8 children at Normanville in South Australia, and their son Richard Henry is my great-grandfather.
Thank you
Susan
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Hi Susan
I will send you a PM.
It was 165 years in May since Simon arrived in South Australia, so I did do trip to Normanville, and to the property Tonto and roughly where the property's were early this year...
Richard and Mary son "John" is my link
Cheran :)
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I am new at this
What is a PM
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I am new at this
What is a PM
Hi Susan PM = Private Message.
Joe in Sydney who is also following the Westlake trail.
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Hi Joe
Are you another long lost distant cousin as well
If there were 8 children from Richard WESTLAKE then there are umpteen decedents
Which branch of the tree have you in your ancestry
Susan
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Joe
If you are after Gill
Then are you also doing Cock / Langmead
Susan
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Hi I have a Matilda Westlake who married my gg uncle 1863 Marylebone and her father William (wife stated as Elizabeth in 1851 census) was born in Milverton Somerset ..... so watching this topic to see what turns up.
Joe
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Joe
Most of the research I have been doing is from the Westlake fasmly from Bratton Clovelly and Oakhampton in Devon... I haven't had anyone from Somerset as yet....
Cheran :D
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Hi Cheran,
I know this post was some written some time ago but I thought I would like to clear some things up and also assist anyone following this post.
I can confirm than the mother of Simons Westlake was Grace Kimber.
I have seen images of the North Lew parish records (not just the transcript)
On the marriage to Grace Glass on 29 Mar 1767 John was noted as a Sojourner and his occupation was a Carpenter. John was able to sign his name and he had a distrinctive W. Sadly Grace was buried on 14 Apr 1774, after the birth or their daughter Grace.
John then married Mary Gale on 16 Dec 1774. Once again his occupation was Carpenter and signed the certificate with the same distinctive W.
John Westlake who married Grace Kimber on 31 Mar 1783 was noted as a Husbandman and was unable to sign his name. This clearly shows the two John's were different and since Grace Glass was deceased by the time Simon was born his mother must have been Grace Kimber.
Our John was living with Simon during the 1841 Census and his age was 80 (b. 1761), however the transcriber rounded the adults up / down 5 years. However his burial recond (7 Oct 1847) gives his as as 92 (b. 1755).
There were 3 x John's baptised around this time frame
John Westlake, son of John & Jane baptised 10 Mar 1755. This John must have been a sickly child as he had a private baptism. Sadly was buried 2 Apr 1755.
John Westlake, son of Robert & Mary baptised 5 Dec 1755. Sadly this John was buried 9 Sep 1759. The family was from Inwardleigh.
This leaves the last candident and this is who I believe is the father of Simon Westlake. John Westlake son of John Westlake & Susanna was baptised 23 Jan 1757. I will now call this John, John Jnr and his father John Snr
There is no marriage record in North Lew for a John & Susanna so this is as far as I can confidently go.
A baptism of note was for George Westlake son of John baptised 26 December 1762. On the certificate it is stated that he was from Gorsen. This is the first mention I have located that mentions the property Gorsen which is where Simon & his family was living in 1841. I believe the father John on this certificate is John Snr.
This I find interesting as on the marriage certificate of John Jnr he is noted as a Husbandman. My understanding is that Husbandman did not actually own the land. On the birth certificate of Simon's son George he is listed as a Yeoman living at Gorson, Northlew. This means Simon owned the property. This is also confirmed by the Northlew Tithe Apportonment (1843) that lists Simon as the occupier and owner of several portions of land known as Gorson. Simon is a Yeoman on the baptism record of his oldest son Simon John in 1832. So here is the interesting part. John Snr was living in Gorson around 1762. As far as I can tell John Jnr never owned the land but Simon did in 1843. Does this mean they were originally tenant farmers and at some stage Simon was able to purchase the land or did he inherit it? I thought that this was unusual as John Jnr was alive and Simons older brothrs were still alive so he should not have been given it as inheritance?. If any one has any information that can clear this up I would love to hear from you.
Regards
Vicki
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Hi Vicki
thanks for the info.... Will have a good look over the next day or so... as I had a quick read it seems to confirm how I have in my data base thanks for the extra bits....
I just wanted to let you know that a memorial stone has been erected in the Yankalilla Cemetery for Simon.... and there is a possibility of trying to have a get together in May this year will keep you posted....
I will send you a photo and more details via email later today...
Cheran 8)
PS I also have George son of John Jnr married to a Grace Kimber 4 January 1813 who was the daughter of John Kimber & Susannah Squire
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Hi Cheran,
My sister & I visited Yanakalilla cemetary last year and located Simon's grave site. It turns out his daughter in law Martha (George's wife) is buried next to Simon. I would love to know how Simons memorial was done as I would like to arrange to do one for Martha as well.
On the marriage certificate for George Westlake & Grace Kimber they were married "with parents consent" which I suspect was because they are first cousins (both were of age). However I have been able to prove that John Kimber's sister was Grace Kimber (Simon's mum).
In the 1851 census Simon's daughter Elizabeth was living with a Grace family so I wonder if this was because they were family?.
This damn geneology, you work out one piece of the puzzle and another one turns up.
Keep me in touch with Simon's memorial I am sure I can convince my sister to come with me.
Regards
Vicki
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I should have read my last message before sending.
I was meant to say the I have not been able to prove that George Westlake & Grace Kimber were first cousins. Also Elizabeth was living with a Squire family not Grace.
Sorry
Vicki
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Hello everyone
John Westlake was my fourth great grandfather. I am descended through his son George and Wife Grace Kimber, my great great grandfather William Westlake was born at Beaworthy, probably at Wigdon Mill. William married Eliza Dart and my great grandmother was Sarah Dart Westlake. Sarah gave all her sons the Westlake name. My grandfather was George Westlake - Toms (as Sarah married Albert Toms a Blacksmith from Torrington) Theirs was a sad story (for another time) My father was James Albert Toms who again resumed the Westlake surname and our branch is now Westlake-Toms. We are a largish brood and strangely scattered around the world! Must be a Westlake thing. I began to research the Westlake and Toms families with my late father about 40 years ago, but latterly have had more time. I am so delighted to hear that other descendants also want to know more and hopefully we can piece together our family history. I now live in Gloucestershire U.K
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In reply to V Cairns
I can support that the information you gave on 15th January, some years ago now. A couple of weeks ago I managed to locate ‘Gorsen’ as spelt by the 1841 enumerator. The farm is actually ‘Gourson’ as pronounced by locals as Goosen!
I am trying to find out who lives there now and if they have any records of the property. Your research is very thorough and detailed. Thank You. Angela