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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Holmemoss on Monday 25 July 11 09:53 BST (UK)
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Joseph Flather is my 4G Grandfather, born ca 1765 at Halifax. There are several marriages of a Joseph Flather in the 1780s in the Halifax area but, with a great deal of help from Sunlaws, we seem to have narrowed it down to just one.
Joseph Flather married Grace Lister at Halifax on 23 Apr 1789 and their children were baptised at the Congregational Or Independent Chapel in Northowram.
Unfortunately there is a problem. On the new familysearch site, there is a non-conformist baptism (RG4-8) at 'Halifax' of a Joseph Flather, father Joseph, on 24 Oct 1787.
This is before the marriage of Joseph Flather to Grace Lister. It is possible Grace was Joseph's second wife but there is no other likely marriage.
It is also possible, of course, that the baptism in 1787 has been transcribed incorrectly.
Could someone please check the 1787 baptism to check this.
Thank you.
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Hello Holmemoss
I've had a look at the image, and the transcription is correct.
Joseph s. Josph Flather of Northowram born Aug 8 1787 baptised October 24 1787 at Northowram Independent.
No occupation given unfortunately, and there are so many Joseph Flathers!
Anne
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Hello Anne and thank you. So much for my theory it might have been 1797!
I found four marriages for a Joseph Flather in 1780s:
23 Oct 1782 - carpenter of Hipperholme to Hannah Chadwick of Hipperholme
7 Nov1784 - rope maker of Halifax to Mary Houghton of Halifax, widow
23 Apr 1789 - weaver of Northowram to Grace Lister
23 Sep 1789 - cordwainer of Northowram to Hannah Holdsworth, widow.
Joseph Flather (the carpenter) and Joseph Flather (the rope maker) had their children baptised in the established church. Joseph Flatherr (cordwainer) of Northowram was buried in 1791 so that just leaves me with the marriage to Grace Lister in April, 1789.
Their children after 1789 were baptised at Northowram Independent so it all fits except for the baptism of Joseph on 24 Oct 1787.
Back to the drawing board!
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I see the carpenter Joseph Flather had a child baptised at Coley 23/10/1791, where his abode was given as Northowram.
I suppose he could have had a little excursion into non conformity if it was difficult to travel for some reason. Unfortunately that child was also Joseph, and I can't see a burial for the 1787 one.
Joseph and Grace could have been living together before their marriage, or have had a child who was acknowledged to be Joseph's. According to Grace's burial record she was born about 1760, so she wasn't a kid when they married.
Anne
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Thank you again, Anne.
This is what I have but it is tentative as it presumes all relevant baptisms are on the IGI.
Joseph Flather was still alive in the 1851 census, a widower aged 86. Hence he was born around 1765 and there is a non-conformist baptism at Northowram on 20 Apr 1768, father Hugh Flather.
If the marriage to Grace Lister is correct, Joseph was a weaver of Northowram when he married in 1789. He was still in Northowram in 1841; his occupation being given as a shop keeper.
The only tentative burial I have for Grace Flather (nee Lister) is on 29 Apr 1836. The IGI just says 'non-conformist Halifax'. Is this the same burial you referred to?
If, as you say, she was born around 1760 then there is a baptism at Lightcliffe (which is not too far from Northowram) on 6 Apr 1760, father Will. Lister. Grace was denoted as living at Hipperholme when marrying in 1789; again not far from Northowram.
There are the following baptisms at 'non-conformist Halifax' (presumably Northowram); father Joseph Flather :
Joseph, 24 Oct 1787
Mary, 3 Sep 1789 - which fits with a marriage in April
John, 2 Sep 1790
Jane, Dec 1793
Ann, 22 Apr 1798 - my 3G Grandmother
Susannah, 5 Apr 1801
I do not have dates of birth for any of the above.
I am back to square one as the baptism of Joseph does not 'fit' unless your suggestion that Joseph and Grace were living 'ov'r brush' before they married is correct.
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Dates of birth, all baptised at Northowram Independent:
Mary Flather 5 May 1789
John Flather 20 Aug 1790
Jane - don't see her, and I've looked through the images.
Ann 22 Jan 1798
Susannah 14 Dec 1800
All abodes given as Northowram except Mary, given as Hypperholme.
Burial at Northowram Independent:
Grace, wife of Joseph Flather Northowram, buried 29 Apr 1836 aged 76.
Anne
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Thank you, Anne.
As Joseph's residence is given as Hipperholme for the baptism of Mary on 5 May 1789 then it is distinctly possible that it is a different Joseph Flather. Joseph, the carpenter, was from Hipperholme and married in 1782 so I suspect he may be the father.
As to Jane, I got the information from the 'old' IGI Batch No. C087191. It does not give a day for the baptism, just simply Dec 1793.
I am still puzzled about the Joseph baptised on 24 Oct 1787!
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Anne, could I possibly ask you for a favour please.
The Ann Flather baptised on 22 Apr 1798 is my 3G Grandmother; she married John Mitchell at Halifax on 25 Sep 1824. I have only just found out that John Mitchell was a widower when marrying Ann.
I have found a marriage of John Mitchell to Nancy Flather (possibly Ann's cousin) at Halifax on 26 Dec 1822 and the possible baptism of a child, William, at Halifax on 16 Nov 1823; parents John Mitchell and Nancy.
Is there a burial of Nancy Mitchell in 1823 and before September 1824?
I have also found three possible non-conformist burials for William on 19 Feb 1833, 18 May 1834 and 29 May 1836.
Is it at all possible to check whether one of these was at Northowram?
Thank you.
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I can't see a burial of a Nancy Mitchell anywhere. I notice though, that the 1824 marriage has John a widower of Rastrick. There are a couple of marriages at Elland which could be him, so I don't think it's safe to assume that the 1822 and 1824 John Mitchells are the same person.
As for William, none of the burials are at Northowram, and none appear to be the right age. 1833 at Illingworth Moor, 1837 at Square Independent, and 1835 at South Parade Wesleyan. The first 2 seem to be adults as no age or relative given, the last is 2 yrs 4 mths, father Henry.
Hope this helps but I fear it wont!
Anne
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I can see a Nancy, John and William Mitchell in 1841 in Halifax, with some younger children. Unfortunately can't see them in 1851 at the moment. I'll keep on looking.
Anne
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In 1841 John Nancy and William are at Bull Close Lane Yard Halifax. HO107/1300/6/28/12
John Mitchell 40 engine tenter.
Nancy 40
William 17 (this fits with the baptism you found as he wont have had his birthday yet)
Sarah 16
Alfred 14
Thomas 12
Edward 10
John 3
Rebecca 9mths
Unfortunately Nancy has died by 1851, so no place of birth.
John Mitchell is a 53 year old widower, engineer, lodging with John and Betty Summerscales in Charlestown Northowram. With him are the two youngest children John and Rebecca.
HO107/2302/59/48
There are 7 Nancy Mitchell deaths on FreeMBD between 1841 and 1851. No ages of course at that time.
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Anne, you are right. This is a different John Mitchell.
'My' John Mitchell's place of birth is given as Rastrick when he married Ann in 1824 and in the 1851 census. His age was given as 40 in the 1841 census (to the lowest 5 years) and 52 in the 1851 census. He died before the 1861 census but was aged 52 in 1851 so this gives his birth around 1799.
As he married Ann in 1824 as a widower then he must have married ca 1820 with his first wife passing away soon afterwards. The marriage to Nancy Flather fitted the bill but another lesson in how it is so, so, easy to put two and two together and get it wrong.
It does, of course, beg the question of whom 'my' John Mitchell married prior to his marriage to Ann Flather in 1824.
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I've had another look at this too, and although my head's a bit scrambled as a result (!) I agree that the family that Marmaduke has identified in 1841 probably IS Nancy Flather's. There are baptisms for Sarah (2/4/1826), Alfred (10/2/1828), and Thomas (28/3/1830), all at Halifax St John the Baptist, which all tie with the family in the 1841 census, and all give the parents as John and Nancy Mitchell of Northowram, occ. labourer.
At first I considered whether it could be another John and Nancy Mitchell, and there is a Halifax St John marriage 1820 for a John Mitchell in April 1820 to Nancy Bottomley, which might have fitted, but it gives them both as "of Sowerby", which tends to rule out a connection with the Northowram baptisms above.
However, I haven't been able to look at all potential marriages. I suggest it is still possible that the Nancy in 1841 might be a different individual, but the connection with Northowram in the baptisms seems to be a strong pointer that it would be her.
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John Mitchell was a widower when marrying Ann Flather in 1824. He was born ca 1799 so I have searched for all marriages of a John Mitchell at Halifax between 1819 and 1824 :
To Nancy Bottomley on 30 Apr 1820 - eliminated as DigleyMill found they were both 'of Sowerby'.
To Sarah Kendall on 4 Sep 1820
To Susannah Farrar on 31 Jan 1822
To Hannah Mitchell on 4 Nov 1822
To Nancy Flather on 26 Dec 1822 - eliminated as Anne found the family in 1841.
The IGI does not give the residence, of course, so that leaves us with three possible marriages.
There are no burials on the IGI for a Sarah or a Susannah Mitchell. There is the burial of a Hannah Mitchell at Halifax on 23 Apr 1823 but she is aged 49 and is, therefore, surely too old to be John's wife.
Can anyone look up the residences for these three remaining marriages? Says he with his fingers crossed!
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Sarah Kendall - John is a cordwainer
Susannah Farrar - of Midgeley. I can see them in 1851
Hannah Mitchell - of Ovenden
But, I think I can see your man!
John Mitchell married Hannah Dixon at Elland 27 Jun 1819. No further details unfortunately, but Elland would be the usual place for people from Rastrick to marry.
Burials at Rastrick:
Hannah Mitchell aged 23, wife of John, delver, 12/6/1824
Hannah Mitchell aged 2 mths daughter of John, delver, and the late Hannah, 12/8/1824.
I seem to remember your John Mitchell is a stone mason on census records with Ann.
Possibly other young children, very common to remarry very quickly in the circumstances.
Anne
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Anne, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Joseph Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 5 Sep 1819
Mary Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 7 Mar 1822
Hannah Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 18 Jul 1824
Parents John Mitchell and Hannah.
I have the CD for St Mary's, Elland but these baptisms are not given, although the burials of both Hannah the mother and Hannah the daughter are. I can see no burials for Joseph and Mary so the next question is what happened to them as they are not with John Mitchell and second wife Ann in the 1841 census.
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I don't think all the chapelry baptisms are on the Elland CD, although its very difficult to find out for sure! I suppose the children with Hannah would be old enough to have left home, or even have married by 1841.
I'll look around a bit more. it will be difficult to identify them on the census with such common names, but the marriage records (if they exist) might help.
Anne
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I have found two marriages of a Mary Mitchell at Elland; 14 Nov 1836 To Robert Whipp and 7 May 1837 to John Denham.
If Mary was born in 1820/1 but not baptised until 1822 then she is just about old enough for the second marriage. John Mitchell was one of the witnesses to the marriage to John Denham so it may indeed be the right one.
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The son Joseph Mitchell appears in the 1841, 51, and 1861 census, living at Cartworth Moor and is also a delver - he appears to have moved there from Rastrick at about the same time as his father.
He married a Hannah Beaumont in 1839 (Kirkburton) and they appear to have had at least six children. Note that the census index for the family for 1861 on ancestry is a bit mixed up and I only found the famaily by searching for daugther Emma born 1850
Anne, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Joseph Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 5 Sep 1819
Mary Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 7 Mar 1822
Hannah Mitchell baptised at Rastrick on 18 Jul 1824
Parents John Mitchell and Hannah.
I have the CD for St Mary's, Elland but these baptisms are not given, although the burials of both Hannah the mother and Hannah the daughter are. I can see no burials for Joseph and Mary so the next question is what happened to them as they are not with John Mitchell and second wife Ann in the 1841 census.
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Not sure this is the same Joseph - he says he was born in Fixby on one census, and there are a lot of delver Mitchells in Fixby. Still, Fixby/Rastrick - not a million miles apart although one is Huddersfield and one Halifax.
There is a George Mitchell also a delver born Fixby about 10 years older living next door or very near. Might be worthwhile for Holmemoss to identify him if he wants to be sure of this Joseph. Maybe a cousin or other relative.
Anne
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Marmaduke
Thanks for this, and thanks for all your help with this thread so far - very much appreciated!
I'm pretty sure this is the correct individual, although I had spotted the "Fixby" birthplace in the 1861 census and it did seem a bit odd at first. His 1851 census record gives his birthplace as "Halifax"; and his baptism record gives it as "Rastrick".
But I am sure the families that appears in the 1841, 1851, and 1861 census are the same - they can be linked by the children, especially George and Emma. The census sheets for 1841 and 1851 show them at "Flowery Fields" (near Hade Edge/Bowshaw - appears on 1854 OS map). 1861 just says "Hade Edge".
Joseph's marriage record gives his father as John Mitchell, delver, and his baptism record John Mitchell, delver, abode Rastrick.
I took the same view as Marmaduke that Fixby and Rastrick aren't that far enough apart, and perhaps it depended on who was giving the information for each census?
I had spotted the neighbouring George Mitchell too, and did a bit of work on him. The interesting thing is to see him living at Magnum Bonum in 1841, as one of the three Mitchell families living there, alongside John Mitchell and another Mitchell family headed by a (slightly younger) James Mitchell. James's family has an elderly Mary Mitchell (age about 70-74). I wondered if she was a parent of one of the others, with the theory that John (b. 1799) and George (b. 1807) might be brothers, with James (b. abt 1817) a son/nephew looking after his grandmother (and John and George's mother?). This would fit with the picture of three closely related Mitchells moving together from the Rastrick area circa 1830 to start up at Magnum Bonum, (John already married, the other two finding spouses nearby and marrying in 1833!) There is a Halifax non-conformist baptism record on IGI for a George Mitchell son of Jonas and Mary Mitchell 9 Feb 1808 which might tie with this and might perhaps be the same Mary, and potentially also John Mitchell's mother.
However, I haven't been able to confirm this, as I haven't been able to find any supporting baptism/marriage records with my limited access to them, and as Holmemoss has already found, there appear to be significant gaps in some of the non-conformist records in the Rastrick/Brighouse area. So it just remains a theory.
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I've had tremendous difficulty with my Helm family because of missing non-conformist records in Brighouse/ Rastrick around 1800.
I found a possible explanation:
Source: J. Horsfall Turner - Independency at Brighouse
This book records that the minister [of Bridge End Chapel] from 1790 to 1800 failed to keep the records properly and lost a lot of the congregation. His successor was equally unpopular "preached to half a dozen people" and the congregation dispersed to prayer meetings and Sunday schools in people's houses. The missing baptisms may therefore be accounted for.
Anne
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Thanks, yes I've already seen this on another thread.
Do you have access to the 9 Feb 1808 baptism image for George Mitchell - if so, is there any extra information on it, other than the baptism date and name of parents? Which chapel was it?
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It's the Wesleyan chapel Greetland, abode Elland, born 16 Jan.
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Thanks, that helps. I've been able to check the IGI batch for the same chapel and the same parents (Jonas and Mary) also appear to have had a son John born 1806. This almost certainly rules them out as potential parents of the John and George who moved to live and work at Magnum.