RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: terryau on Saturday 23 July 11 02:59 BST (UK)

Title: John Clish
Post by: terryau on Saturday 23 July 11 02:59 BST (UK)
Good Morning,
John CLISH was tried and sentenced to 14 years tranportation to NSW at Durhan Quarter Sessions on the 30 June 1834. Can any one advise as to where I might find on line the details of the court hearings. Alternatively, can any one do a look up for me.
Many thanks in antipication.
Terry
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 23 July 11 07:50 BST (UK)
Hi Terry

Durham Criminal Register 1834

Age 31 51, John Clish, tried before Midsummer Session, Larceny before convicted of felony, transported for 14 years

No other details.


gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 23 July 11 08:00 BST (UK)
Just found some  earlier convictions in the  Durham Register ~

1826  John Clish - October Session - larceny,  7 years transportation

1823 John Clish - July Session - larceny, 6 months imprisonment

And in the Northumberland Register ~

John Clish, Summer 1815, Rape, Not Guilty

John Clish, Midsummer 1818, Larceny Land Money ? , 6 months imprisonment (very faint image)  *See below Reply #4


gnu



Added - please note that all of the images are very faint
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 23 July 11 09:45 BST (UK)
Just noticed on your website that you seem not to have found his parents/family, etc.  This is a possible on the IGI (extracted series):

Baptisms - Newburn, Northumberland
23 June 1782 John Clish or Goodall. Parents - Thomas Clish and Sarah Goodhall

gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 23 July 11 10:03 BST (UK)
re the 1818 entry - I've darkened the image and now think it reads 'Procuring bad money to ?  it'



(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/7493/johnclish1818.jpg)

gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: terryau on Sunday 24 July 11 01:17 BST (UK)
Good Morning gnu and many thanks for the information.
 As always in research the information you have given poses  another question . If he was convicted and sentenced to 7 years transportaion in 1826 I can find no record of his arrivial in NSW or Tasmania. So what were the circumstances?
Regards  and thanks again.
Terry
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: davidft on Sunday 24 July 11 01:27 BST (UK)
If he was convicted and sentenced to 7 years transportaion in 1826 I can find no record of his arrivial in NSW or Tasmania. So what were the circumstances?
Regards  and thanks again.
Terry

Its possible that he was not transported in 1826 and that is why he was in the UK in 1834 tlo be sentenced again.

Not all people wh were sentenced to be transported actually were. There was some mechanism of appeal but not sure exactly how it worked - perhaps someone else can help .... and i'd be interested to find out too
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 July 11 05:35 BST (UK)
Hi again

Not all those who were sentenced to transportation were transported at the time of their sentence. Often they were imprisoned and then transferred to a prison hulk (floating prison) to await transportation.

While investigating further for you, I've found these  records of John Clish in  the Prison Hulk registers  ( http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/490.htm ) which shows that he was kept on two prison hulks until 1831. Then he was re-convicted and transported in 1834:

Justitia moored at Woolwich:
John Clish, aged 41, received 4 Nov 1826, convicted 16 October 1826, Durham, offence - theft of 2 shirts, transferred to Gannymede
Justitia - gaoler's reports:
1472 John Clish, disposed of - to Gannymede, Bad Character
551 Jno Clish, ?, V B (Very Bad character).

Gannymede, moored at Woolwich and Devonport:
John Clish, Age 42, convicted 16 Oct 1826, Durham.  Disposed of - Pd (? pardoned) 20 Sept 1831


Justitia moored at Woolwich:

John Clish, aged 51, received 26 August 1834, convicted 30 June 1834, Durham, stealing meat, etc., Disposed of - NSW 19 Sept 1834


List of British prison hulks:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_prison_hulks
Hulks on the Thames:  http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConNarrative.56/Prison-hulks-on-the-River-Thames.html   and  http://www.plumstead-stories.com/story%20-%20Prison%20hulks%20at%20Woolwich.htm  and  http://www.victorianlondon.org/prisons/hulks.htm

You might be interested in other aspects of Victorian crime and punishment:  http://vcp.e2bn.org/


gnu



Added - just noticed that I've misspelled Ganymede - only 1 'n'
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Sunday 24 July 11 06:10 BST (UK)


Good stuff on the hulks,  Gnu.  Brings back the start of Great Expectations. :)

re the 1818 entry - I've darkened the image and now think it reads 'Procuring bad money to ?  it' ...

On that earlier point of detail,  I think the "?" is Utter.

To "utter bad money" was knowingly to tender or pass counterfeit notes/coins.


Rol


Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 July 11 11:51 BST (UK)
Hello Rol  :)

I've got a bit more as I've found an entry for him in the National Archives (WO 97 Chelsea Hospital - Soldiers Service Documents (Chelsea pensioners))

WO97/1219/284
Covering dates - 1803-1814
John Clish. Born Newcastle, Northumberland.
Served in the Royal Artillery Drivers. Discharged aged 30

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0edu/

Also, from another source , I summarize ~

Parish of Birth: All Saints, Newcastle  (I don't see a  baptism for a John Clish in the All Saints indexes so I'm still thinking that the Newburn bpt is the most likely. Newburn was a small village to the west of Newcastle but is now a suburb of it)
Age at attestation: 19 years
Discharge rank: Driver B Troop

Served in the said Regiment for the space of Eleven years and 23 days but in consequence of a Reduction hereby discharged: having first received all just Demands of Pay, Clothing, etc. from his entry into the said Regiment, to the Date of Discharge as appears by his receipt on the back hereof.

Description:

He is about 30 years of Age, is 5 feet 4 inches, brown hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion and is a collier
Discharged 25th July 1814, Woolwich



gnu

(Terry -If you are using this information,  I'm wondering if you might make an acknowledgement to Rootschat in your account of John Clish on your website  :))
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 July 11 13:07 BST (UK)
A wee bit more:

A report from the local press:

Newcastle Courant, Saturday October 21 1826, Issue 7828

At the Durham Quarter Sessions on Tuesday last, John Clish, for stealing two shirts from Green Taylor of Wreckington.......................sentenced to be transported for 7 years



gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 July 11 14:50 BST (UK)
I wouldn't like this to be information overload and  hide my finds on the Prison Hulks and the Napoleonic Wars (above)  but this might be a family for John:


Marriage on the IGI extracted index
:

Newburn, Northumberland 11 June 1804 John Clish and Frances Ramsey

and  baptisms of three  children for this couple ~

Newburn, Northumberland 24 October 1804  Thomas
Ryton, Durham 22 Feb 1807 Elizabeth (born 22 Feb 1807)
All Saints, Newcastle, Northumberland 14 June 1814 Mary  (Parents - John Clish and Frances)


Possible for Frances Clish

1841
Eighton Banks,Lamesley, Chester le Street, Co Durham
HO107/300/8/7/8

Frances Clish, 55, Ind
Edward Ellis, 30, Quarryman
Joseph Mather, 20, -do-

All born outside of Co Durham

And 1851

Low Road, Lamesley
HO107/2394/535/28

Frances Clish, widow,  67, pauper, b. Newburn, Northumberland

Added - mabe a double entry:

1851
Waldridge, Chester le Street, Co Durham
HO107/2394/217/32-33

Edward White, 38, coalminer b. Washington, Co Durham
Mary, 41, b. Northumberland
John Clish White, 19, coalminer, b. Lamesley
Frances, 8, b. Gateshead
Edward, 5, b. Lamesley
Isabella, 1, b. Witton Gilbert
Frances, visitor, wid,  67,  b. Northumberland


And 1861

Hunters Terace, Waldridge, Co Durham
RG09/3759/81/9

Edward MgGregor White, 48, coal miner, b. Co Durham, Washington
Mary White, 50, b. Northumberland, Newburn
Edward Barmsy (?)^^ White, 15, coal miner , b. Co Durham, Witton Gilbert  ^^ Ramsey
Isabel White, 12, b. Co Durham, Lamesley
Frances Clish, mother in law, widow,  80, b. Northumberland Newburn


gnu

Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Sunday 24 July 11 19:20 BST (UK)


Well found -- seems this chap's got quite a fascinating history.

I wouldn't like this to be information overload and  hide my finds on the Prison Hulks and the Napoleonic Wars (above)  but ...

(Feathers in cap all still fully visible ;D)


Rol


Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 24 July 11 19:54 BST (UK)

 seems this chap's got quite a fascinating history.



I'm still trying to find more bits and pieces but am off on my travels early tomorrow so hope you will join in, Rol. We've done a few searches together in the past   :)


gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: terryau on Sunday 24 July 11 23:50 BST (UK)
Good Morning and again many thaks to gnu and others.
The background to my request for look up is the result of some work i was doing on my 'mineworkers' site. I noticed that he sustained a fatal injury to his head froma pick falling from a great height whilst he was ascending from the (coal)mine. He lingered in pain for three days. I thought what a terrible way to die. So the search on Trove and Roots web was to find out some more information from him.
Gnu i have already made mention of Roots web assistance, but will add to it.

Terry
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: terryau on Sunday 24 July 11 23:52 BST (UK)
morning again,  oops an eror  ' a pick falling from a great height'

terry
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Monday 25 July 11 06:54 BST (UK)

Gnu i have already made mention of Roots web assistance, but will add to it.

Terry


and from your website:

Quote
also posted a note on the Durham site of Roots web

Hi Terry  :)

I think it might be better to mention RootsChat




gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Friday 29 July 11 05:05 BST (UK)



… I'm still trying to find more bits and pieces but am off on my travels early tomorrow so hope you will join in, Rol. We've done a few searches together in the past   :) ...

Slow response to that invitation,  I am afraid -- been away from the computer.  Plus all the foregoing is a tough act to follow -- it's not merely the "low-hanging fruit" that's already been plucked! ;)  Originally I landed on the thread fortuitously,  simply looking for material about transportation in general -- and then innocently thought I would just stick my oar in for a mere sentence or two,  in order to utter about "uttering".  Just shows how one can get led astray;  got me hooked now!

Well,  yesterday I belatedly did some digging into Mr Clish and his connections,  so here goes -- with my trademark brevity. :)

By way of supplement to the Courant's 1826 report about Clish's first sentence of transportation,  and as a direct response to this in "the OP's OP" --
… John CLISH was tried and sentenced to 14 years tranportation to NSW at Durhan Quarter Sessions on the 30 June 1834. Can any one advise as to where I might find on line the details of the court hearings. Alternatively, can any one do a look up for me. ...
-- here is the paper's short para about the conviction which lead to the second and decisive sentence of transportation:

Newcastle Courant,  Sat. 5 July 1834:
Quote
DURHAM MIDSUMMER SESSIONS
The following prisoners were tried at the quarter sessions, held at Durham, on Monday last:--
… JOHN CLISH, charged with having stolen one poke and a boll of wheatmeal, from the mill of Edward Edwards, of Heworth; transported for 14 years.

Presumably poke was used there in the sense of a bag or sack,  as in the phrase to buy a pig in a poke -- meaning to buy or accept something without proper inspection in advance.

(Terry -- I fear that it is highly unlikely that anybody would have made any more detailed record of the hearing than that.  Just as now,  the press would only have made some attempt at a transcript of the proceedings if the facts were unusual or salacious,  or if the accused was well known in the local community.  There would only be any chance of a brief law report if the case went to a higher court on some point of law.  And even if there had indeed been some procedural defect or other injustice at trial,  someone without a lawyer -- as he very probably was -- would have had virtually zero chance of organising such an appeal.  No "official transcript" would have been made.)

Someone in Tulsa USA has put up basic data (including census extracts) about Edward Edwards the Heworth miller on a genealogical website,  here:

http://members.cox.net/ggthomp/edwardedwards.html

Looks as though Edwards took on the mill at some date between 1827 and 1829,  and died in 1846.  His household's address on the 1841 census appears as "Windy Nook,  Heworth Mill".  (Just as well it was windy,  I suppose . . . ).

As to Clish's 1826 sentence of transportation and subsequent detention in the prison hulks,  if the abbreviation spotted by Gnu does mean that he was pardoned in 1831 it may be that a petition for clemency survives in TNA class HO 17;  the off-line index to these petitions is contained in nine paper volumes under the ref. HO 19.  See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=7574&CATLN=3&FullDetails=True

Background information is to be found in para 4.2 of the relevant TNA guide here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/transportation-australia.htm).  (N.B. that it is sometimes necessary to click twice on TNA web links,  with a three or four second gap between the clicks,  so as to penetrate beyond their search page.)


Rol


Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Friday 29 July 11 05:18 BST (UK)


Given the relative rareness of the surname,  the IGI marriage plus the baptism and the census entries set out in Reply 11 do look like pretty safe candidates.

You had perhaps already spotted this,  Gnu,  but it appears probable that the son called Thomas who shows up in the IGI ensured that John Clish (JC) left quite a progeny of grandchildren to represent him back in the UK.  Censuses:

1851
HO107/2394 fo.578r p.6
Kibblesworth

Thomas Clish / Head / Mar / 46 / Coal Miner /  [Northumb'd] Callerton
Mary --do-- / Wife / Mar / 43 /  --  / Durham  Ponto Pike *
Frances --do-- / Daur / U / 22 /  --  / --do--  Wreckenton
Matthew --do-- / Son / U / 12 /  --  / --do--  Kelloe
Mary Ann --do-- / Daur / U / 9 / Scholar / --do--  Kibblesworth
Eliza --do-- / --do-- / U / 6 / --do-- / --do--  --do--
Hannah --do-- / --do-- / U / 3 /  --  / --do--  --do--

* [Presumably Pontop Pike,  a little NE of Consett? (Here (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=414715&y=552980&z=120&sv=414715,552980&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=641&ax=414715&ay=552980&lm=0) on Streetmap.)]

The ten year gap between the births of the first child and the others hints that Mary could have been a second wife -- though I have yet to spot any suitable marriages.

The household was still at Kibblesworth in 1861 and 1871.  In 1861 Mary A and Hannah were the only children remaining -- and the enumerator seems to have decided to make his life easier by recording that everybody was born at Lamesley Co. Durham (RG9/3764 fo.11r p.15).  By 1871 Thomas and Mary Clish were alone,  with Thomas's birthplace switched back to Callerton,  and Mary's listed rather opaquely as Durham Colliery Dy[..?..]:  a challenge for someone with better knowledge of local place names than mine ;) (RG10/4995 fo.112v p.26).

When 1881 came,  Thomas Clish was dead and Mary was living with Mary Ann and her husband Thomas Rowell -- a collier,  like so many others in that coal-rich area.  Her place of birth had undergone another metamorphosis and become "Lanchester" (i.e. more SE of Consett than NE).


Rol




Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Friday 29 July 11 05:45 BST (UK)


Back to JC the Convict,  and specifically to the evidence from WO97 that he served in the RHA.

The master index of miners that the Durham Mining Museum made (mainly) from the 1881 census includes entries for Clishes called George (3),  Jeremiah,  Joseph, Matthew (2),  Robert,  Richard (2),  Thomas,  William (3) -- and five Johns.  One of the Johns catches the eye,  because he was born Woolwich ca.1806.  That PoB,  given the presence there of the famous artillery arsenal,  when combined with the fact that he had come north to work in the Durham mines and was enumerated at Heworth in '81,  looks like strong circumstantial evidence that he was a son of the WO97 John Clish -- who,  it seems,  later and coincidently became [re-?]acquainted with Woolwich via the occasional glimpse from the decks of a prison-hulk.  The census ref. given is RG11/5029 fo.116 p.2.

(One might pause to note in passing that the 1881 John looks like one more of the tough and courageous old men who struggled on with hard manual labour rather than lapse onto parish indoor/outdoor relief,  pre the start of L-G's state contributory pension scheme.)

So,  off to quiz the IGI.  Nothing at Woolwich.  However . . . there was a John Clish (only candidate ± 2 years),  son of John,  who was bapt. Ringmer,  Sussex,  15 Sept. 1805.  And a little Googling reveals that the RHA maintained a barracks at Ringmer.  Exploring the IGI batch (J148331) further discloses two more children,  William Clish bapt. 9 Sept. 1804 and Richard Clish bapt. 10 May 1807.

The mother's name rather thickens the plot:  in each case it is Elizabeth,  not Frances.  But the Newburn marriage of 11 June 1804 is the only one on the IGI for a John Clish in the relevant period.  Which leaves two obvious scenarios:  either,  against the apparent odds,  there were two separate John Clishes;  or there was only one,  and he kept the army equivalent of an RN man's "girl in every port".  For the latter theory,  the dates are certainly rather uncomfortable:  they require him to have come north on leave to marry at the very time when a Sussex woman was already six months pregnant with his son-to-be William.  We know that he had few claims to sainthood -- but even the practicalities seem rather challenging!

If anyone were prepared to pull out a little plastic card,  the search engine has also served up a possible evidential "decider".  By great good fortune a poor law settlement examination has survived in Ringmer parish chest for:

Quote
John Clish, private in the artillery drivers at Ringmer

Settlement examination  4 Oct 1811

PAR461/32/4/8
-- East Sussex [Lewes] Record Office,  via A2A

The fact that John Clish,  the 75 year old miner at Heworth in 1881,  gave his place of birth as Woolwich is at the very least a major co-incidence,  and if anything it does rather strengthen the case that JC the Convict was indeed the same man as JC the Ringmer RHA man.  But the puzzle is far from unravelled.


Rol



Postscript: I see that other RootsChat users have already ploughed furrows in the RHA-Ringmer field -- per this thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3h12i2hb8m630iqtifltjhs6l0&topic=215146.0),  dating from 2007-08.



Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Friday 29 July 11 09:42 BST (UK)
Hi Rol

Yes, I had picked up  Thomas Clish just before I left my Scottish home and returned to the North East so what I found is on my computer up there!

I note that you found the theft of a bol of meal in 1834. This would tie in with my reading of 'meat' in the transcript - obviously it was meal!

Re our original John Clish - your find of the Woolwich one made me wonder if there were indeed more than one John Clish bc 1770s/1780s .

I'd been working on the ages given in his conviction - 1834  aged 51  so born circa 1783. The Royal Artillery John was 'about 30' when he was discharged in 1814 and 19 when he was recruited in 1803 so, again, born circa 1783-4.

I  found three John Clish but only  one that came close to that  approx. birth date:

21 April 1771 All Saints, Newcastle (to John Clesh)
1 Oct 1775 Newburn (to Andrew Clish and Ann)
23 June 1782 Newburn (to Thomas Clish and Sarah Goodall)

The records for the RA John do state that he was of All Saints parish but no baptism record there for him circa 1780s so the Newburn one looks the most likely, particularly with the marriage to Frances and a son, Thomas. Also, the parish at attestation would not necessarily be the birth parish. (Living in Newcastle, I know the area well, and a move from Newburn to Newcastle itself would not be much of a move! )

I followed the John that you found b. Woolwich in 1881 and find that he states his birth as

1841  Co Durham
1851 Woolwich
1861 Ringmore
1871 Woolwich
1881 Woolwich

The  Ringmer baptisms are interesting:

1804 William - not found afterwards
1807 Richard - found in Kelloe in 1841,  in 1851 in Bishop Auckland b. Woolwich;  1861 - British Subject; 1871 - NK

I'm coming to the view that there were two John Clish - the one who was transorted and the one who was in the Royal Artillery. So far no proof apart from the two families (1804, 1807 and 1814 for one and 1804, 1806 and 1807 for the other).  Also, he would have had a pension if he'd been the RA one  so less likely to steal.

Maybe some burial records might help  :-\


gnu

Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Friday 29 July 11 10:17 BST (UK)


I'm coming to the view that there were two John Clish - the one who was transorted and the one who was in the Royal Artillery. So far no proof apart from the two families (1804, 1807 and 1814 for one and 1804, 1806 and 1807 for the other).  Also, he would have had a pension if he'd been the RA one  so less likely to steal.

Maybe some burial records might help  :-\


gnu



Alternativley, the RA one and the transported one were the same but the one who married Frances was a different one  :-\ 

A burial of a John Clish before the 1841 would provide more evidence.

gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Friday 29 July 11 11:20 BST (UK)
Maybe we're getting a bit out but I'd like to get the correct John!

Another problem is that there is another John Clish who shows up in Lanchester, Co Durham with wife Frances (I kept having to put them aside last weekend!)

1841
Lanchester
HO107/301/5/3/8

John Clish, 60, pitman, not b. county
Frances, 60
John, 20, ag lab
Frances, 10
Others b. Co Durham

1851
Howl Dean, Burnope and Hamsteels
HO107/2389/549/15

Frances Clish, 69, pitman's widow, b. Stanhope
Frances, d, 25, b. Lanchester

1861
Howl Dean, Burnhope and Hamsteels
RG09/3735/33/12

Frances Clish, 79, b. Bottsburn (?), Durham  (maybe Bowburn but not close to Stanhope - still looking. )
Frances Appleby, d, 31, b. Howl Dean
John Appleby, s in l, 25, ag lab, b. Leeds


An Ancestry tree has this couple as the John and Frances who married Newburn in 1804 . A mixture of children. John's parents given as James Clish and Mary Courley and somehow adopts the Newburn born Frances. Very mixed up and no real citations. Newburn is a way from Lanchester and Stanhope etc. and different county!


This is not the John Clish who was transported or in the RA and this is not the Frances who I reported as a widow earlier in the thread!

gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Friday 29 July 11 13:07 BST (UK)
I've just been looking at the original baptism entries for John Clish and Frances Ramsey's children on the family search pilot site to see if there was any more info.

Newburn  -  Thomas Clish of Callerton b. 7th October 1804 bpt 24th October 1st son of John Clish, pitman, native of Chester le Street parish* by his wife Frances Ramsey native of this parish  (this fits with Rol's 1851 census info on him)

All Saints  - June 14th 1814 Mary daughter of John and Frances Clish of Newburn. Father's occupation - pitman

Now, if he wasn't discharged from Woolwich until July 25th 1814, he'd not be described as a Pitman, would he?  Similarly, on Thomas's entry of 1804 when he was already in the RA.

Ergo, the RA John Clish and the  John Clish who married Frances Ramsey in Newburn 1804 were not the same person.

* a native of Chester le Street parish implies that that's  where he was born.


gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Friday 29 July 11 13:28 BST (UK)
Not sure if this is any help ~

The entry in the  Newburn records for the baptism of John Clish, 23 June 1782, reads

John s. of Thos Clish and Sarah Goodhall. A bastard child, (of)  Callerton


Searching through these unindexed records is doing my eyes in! Don't think there's much more to find in them.


Also:

Deaths/Burials


Newburn, St Michael and All Angels,  24 April 1786 John Clish son of James. Abode - Callerton

-do- 7 Nov 1803 Thomas Clish, aged 43. Abode - Callerton

Ringmer, St Mary, 23 Sept 1804 William Clish


gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Fairmeadow2 on Monday 01 August 11 23:42 BST (UK)
Settlement examination of John CLISH, 4 Oct 1811, ESRO/Par.461/32/4/11 [Ringmer, Sussex]

John CLISH was a private in the Artillery Drivers now at Ringmer. He was born in Newbourne, Northumberland, where his father was legally settled. Nine years ago he hired himself as a yearly servant to a farmer in Washington, Durham, and served for the term agreed. He had gained no other settlement since. He has a wife, Isabella, and four children, John (6), Richard (4), Sally (2) and an unbaptised boy a few days old, who are now with him.

There was a Royal Horse Artillery barracks at Ringmer from c.1795-1827. At this date it housed the artillery drivers & drafts were regularly being sent off abroad (mainly to the Peninsula), so the parish was regularly deporting "followers" (including Ringmer girls who had married soldiers) back to their "home" parish.

There are CLISH baptisms at Ringmer on 9 Sep 1804 (William s. John & Elizabeth), 15 Sep 1805 (John s. John & Elizabeth), 10 May 1807 (Richard s. John & Elizabeth) & 2 Jul 1809 (Sarah d. John & Elizabeth). There is one burial, William CLISH, 23 Sep 1804. No marriages.
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Monday 01 August 11 23:53 BST (UK)
The Newbourne would be Newburn on the North side of the Tyne to the west of Newcastle.

Not sure if he was the tranportee or not - my gut feeling is that he wasn't but ..... :-\



gnu
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Fairmeadow2 on Tuesday 02 August 11 00:16 BST (UK)
A point I should perhaps have made is that if John CLISH the gunner-driver in the RHA had been born illegitimate (as the Newburn baptism implies), then under the Old Poor Law his father's settlement would not have been material to his own settlement.

Mind you, not all settlement examinees' information checks out, and at least one of the Ringmer examinees whose record survives was clearly having a laugh at the parish officers' expense.
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Rol on Tuesday 02 August 11 07:15 BST (UK)


Greetings FM -- and thank you very much indeed for taking the trouble to have a look at JC's settlement examination and then fill us in about its contents.  A nice surprise! :)  I do hope that you were able to piggyback the lookup onto a visit to the RO that you were making anyway.  We are lucky that you seem to keep an eye open for Ringmer-flavoured topics on unexpected pages.

I am already overdue a session with the proverbial cold towel wrapped round my head to ingest the new data that Gnu put up a couple of days back,  and it is great to have that info from JC's examination to inject into the mix.

I am a bit rusty on the details of settlement law as then applicable.  Presumably JC and family would have been hoping to be accorded the right to claim on the ratepayers of Ringmer and stay where they were,  while the guardians would have been seeking to avoid them becoming a burden on the parish.  Does the document (perhaps by way of an indorsement) suggest what actually resulted?  Are there indications that the matter went to Quarter Sessions,  and/or was litigated with the guardians of Newburn or Washington?

If JC was still a private in the RHA,  there would presumably have been no room to contest his employment status.  There were probably special rules dealing with the obligations of ratepayers in parishes with a large and continuing military presence.   But the words "John CLISH was a private in the Artillery Drivers now at Ringmer" do raise new doubts in my mind about his service record.

On the Q of illegitimacy -- if JC was trying for a settlement down south,  are you saying that it would have been to his advantage to claim that,  as a filius nullius,  he had no paternal settlement by virtue of place of birth -- or the contrary?  In other words,  faced with a dispute about his settlement status,  would he have had an incentive to massage his evidence in one direction or the other?  (Of course he may well have been entirely ignorant of the principles involved;  but in such situations people can be surprisingly canny,  esp. if they have time to "ask around" a bit for a few tips.)

Much appreciate your help with this.


Rol


Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Fairmeadow2 on Tuesday 02 August 11 09:20 BST (UK)
Sorry - wasn't very clear. John CLISH was serving as a private with the RHA when examined. Ringmer is a largish village with a population then about 1,000, so the 150 soldiers in the RHA gunner-driver troop (think R.A.S.C. in 20th century terms) plus their followers made quite an impact on the village population.

The usual reason for an examination was that the soldier concerned was about to be posted abroad in the next draft. To deport the family back to where they belonged, the parish officers had to know not only that they were not Ringmer's responsibility, but also which other parish they did belong to. If they could not establish where they did belong, they were at risk of having to provide for them. More than once they deported a family back to where the soldier said he belonged, only to be faced by blank incomprehension by the receiving parish, who would deny the soldier's story. By that time the soldier was in the Peninsula or the West Indies, and there was not a lot the parish could do. No question of John CLISH having or seeking a Ringmer settlement, and no later record.

The sworn examination was the best evidence the parish could collect, though of course they had to pay for it.
If the soldier was illegitimate, his father's settlement was irrelevant, so would not be recorded. Otherwise a man started with his father's settlement until he established his own. John CLISH's family should have been sent to Washington, county Durham......
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 02 August 11 09:28 BST (UK)
Quote
The usual reason for an examination was that the soldier concerned was about to be posted abroad in the next draft. To deport the family back to where they belonged, the parish officers had to know not only that they were not Ringmer's responsibility, but also which other parish they did belong to.


This is very interesting as at least two of the RA JC's children appear in the Co. Durham censuses.

Would there be any records of their move/deportation?
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: Fairmeadow2 on Tuesday 02 August 11 18:54 BST (UK)
None kept in the Ringmer parish chest. Do such records survive for Washington?

If both parishes agreed, in the light of the examination, what the situation was, there would be no need for a formal removal order (which of course involved legal fees to obtain). The actual removal orders are just the tip of the iceberg. Ringmer has a good collection, but the records of other neighbouring parishes that had frequent interactions with Ringmer show copies kept of many individual events where the Ringmer copy that there must once have been has been lost.
Title: Re: John Clish
Post by: terryau on Saturday 06 August 11 04:30 BST (UK)
Hello all,
well my request for information re John Clish has certainly been answered. Many thanks to all. I will endeavour to put some kind of narrative together for my site on my return from holidays. many thanks again
Terry