RootsChat.Com
Family History Documents and Artefacts => FH Documents and Artefacts => Topic started by: davierj on Friday 22 July 11 18:10 BST (UK)
-
I have a Grant of Exclusive Right of Burial taken out by my great grandfather, William Jenkins, on 14 January 1887. It is shown as an attachment (I hope). The document is printed on vellum and was issued by the Burial Board for the Parish of Aberystwyth. It details the grave and in the bottom right hand corner is an orange sixpenny stamp. In the left hand corner is a black wax seal with the imprint of the Prince of Wales feathers and the words 'The Burial Board for the Parish of Aberystwyth'. It is signed by 3 board members and the Clerk to the board.
The first occupant was William's daughter, Sarah Elizabeth Jenkins, age 10, and according to cemetery records she was buried 21 September 1886, yes 1886. She was followed by her 15 month old brother on 18 May 1892 and a modern cremation interment.
I would like to know if such a grant was normally made retrospectively and if such a grant of burial lasts for a specific period or is permanent.
Dave
-
Not sure time frame where you are.
In Northern Ireland Council Cemeteries Rite of Burial are 999 years. RC Cemeteries all over Ireland were 99 Years and in Nothern Ireland that has now been reduced in Belfast to 75 years.
Erin
-
Thanks Erin, I have only seen this one example of a 19th century right of burial. In the modern day, for example in Wiltshire, I believe the lease (for want of a better word) on a burial plot only lasts 45 years. It still does seem unusual that the grant was taken out after the burial.
Dave
-
There is Burial Rite Legislation that Governs in the UK Dave except RC Cemeteries they have almost no legislation due to being privatly owned by the RC Church. They can make the rules up as they go along as we in Ireland found to our cost recently.
Erin
-
Thanks for the reply, Erin, the Grant of Burial in my possession is for a municipal cemetery so would therefore presumably come under the general legislation. I'll trawl the internet to see if there is any reference to it.
Dave
-
I have a similar certificate from a cemetary in Birmingham from my great-grandparents burials during & just after WW1
It says there is room for 3 burials - so in theory, theres space for another one if any family member was still in the area
Didnt realise such "exclusive rights" only lasted a certain length of time
-
I've now looked at the Ceredigion Council web site and apparently the Right of Burial there lasts 100 years but if there's room, relatives could possibly be buried there outside that time upon proof of relationship and, of course, for a fee. Hope not to take them up on it for a long time to come, but it seems worthwhile for further investigation.
Dave
-
Council Cemeteries in Belfast Nothern Ireland have a Lease of 999 years. Four Burials Maiximum in the Grave.
FYI,
Dipping a Grave with a pole to check if there is room is common practice for a charge of Course. But according to Archaeologists I work with the pole will just go through any remains that are in the Grave.
The Correct method is to have the Grave hand Dug until reaching the last Burial. Hence in other Cemeteries Graves have as many as 10-15 Burials as Archaeologist have found in the past.
Just a little bit of Info.
Erin
-
Seems that rules vary with time and location. I found a link to Aberystwyth Cemetery (and 3 others in Ceredigion see my post in Cardiganshire) and some graves there had 4 burials. As far as assessing room in a grave, many years ago I talked with the local gravedigger (Aberystwyth) and he said he pushed a rod down until he heard a squeal ;)
Dave
-
They do that Dave in Ireland when they reach Ten..lol
Erin
-
In Spain they 'bury' people in niches in a wall just like a honeycomb. The hole is then bricked up and memorial tablets can be attached to the front. The richer folk have rather grand mausoleums. What happens in Cyprus?
Dave
-
It is my understanding that up until the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977 came into force which grants burial for up to 100 years, that grants issued before this time were perpetual rights...meaning forever.
Hope this helps
teresaevans
-
That was my feeling too, but I wasn't aware when the regs changed. As I mentioned earlier , it would appear that currently in Ceredigion the Right lasts 100 years but with an option of a longer period if there is proof of relationship. If this is the case, then theoretically the Right is in perpetuity, subject to the proviso of sufficient room.
Dave
-
Hi Dave
You mention that it appears to be currently the case that in Ceredigion that rights last 100 years. I am not aware of any local authority in England that grants the max that the law allows for. It is usually 99 years and many in England have moved to only granting in some instances 30 years...even on triple depth graves.
My father had been granted 99 years for the double depth grave that he bought when my mother passed away. My father was later buried in the same grave and the rights passed to me. I later lost my son and I bought the exclusive rights for a single depth grave. I took it for granted that the rights was the same and never read the document when it arrived. I only learnt last year that 30 years had been granted. I never imagined that I would need to address in my own lifetime renewing the grant on my son's grave. I think that this is appalling which made me begin examining what other local authorities grant under the law.
I learnt that remaining space in consecrated graves are being reused in the City of London cemetery and being resold as Heritage graves. The City of London has applied for a faculty to move to the lift and deepen method. For any readers that do not know what this practice is, it is where the body is removed, the grave dug deeper and the body replaced...freeing up space to sell more graves. I am not aware that this method has been adopted yet, but it will for certain and one can be sure that when it does happen that this practice will be adopted by local authorities across England and Wales.
In respect of of your understanding of extending burial rights for a longer period if there is proof of relationship, this is not my understanding. I do not believe that relationship has anything to do with rights granted, but you would need to read the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order yourself or maybe another member of the forum will provide the answer. If this fails to be the case I would have a chat with an officer at your local authority.
teresaevans
-
The Ceredigion County Council website states that Right of Burial (R of B) may be granted for up to 100 years intimating that the R of B may be for any period up to that max. They further state that there are possibilities that an extension may be granted at the end of that period. I guess each different council treats each case separately and can grant what it wishes according to prevailing local conditions. See..........
http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/index.cfm.articleid=15756 select FAQs, question nos. 8 & 11
What is a Heritage Grave? Never heard that one before. It must be a smart way to make even more money.
In Spain it's a case of cremation or burial in a hole in a wall (niche) like a honeycomb, unless you are super rich and can afford a mausoleum. It costs roughly 500 euro to purchase a niche for a fixed period normally up to 50 years and there may or may not be rental fees also.
Dave
-
If the link above does not work go to.....
http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/
Select English or Welsh, go to Community and Living, then select Cemeteries, then finally FAQs. I tried the above link and is a bit odd.
Dave
-
Hi Dave
I believe that you misinterpret what is stated in the FAQ in the link that you provide. What is stated is that the local authority does issue times granted in graves for up to 100 years, but this does not mean that this is in actual fact the time that the authority grants. If you want to be certain I would give them a call to find out. Your district could be one of the lucky ones that has not changed its practice.
I campaign for the rights of newly bereaved people to be made obvious to them in the immediate hours and days following a death. It is my experience that many burial authorities do not look to educate people about changes occurring across the country about times granted in graves. I recently flagged this up in a newspaper published locally. Instead the authority relies on people establishing this for themselves in the immediate hours following a death, and likely leaving many people quite shocked to learn that the time is no longer for ever and far removed from 100 years.
Claims for reducing times granted in graves or reusing them is because of the shortage of grave space. I wonder how many people might choose cremation over burial if they were to determine that they were making decisions on traditional practice or assumption that they or their relatives will remain undisturbed forever. Given statistics indicate that 70% of funerals are now cremations, I wonder if there is an agenda and authorities claim that grave space is in short supply just to reduce times granted so that they can generate more income in a shorter period of time!
Best wishes
Teresa
-
Hi Teresa,
I don't think I misinterpreted anything, the pivotal word in my post was 'may' which implied that the time granted is at the discretion of each particular council taking into account conditions peculiar to that area. For example in west Wiltshire the time granted for a cremation plot in a municipal cemetery was 45 years (10 years ago). The answer to the question on the Ceredigion site is a generalisation and each individual case would be looked at as and when the time arose. I agree with you that it would be far better for a generally recognised policy throughout the whole country so that bereaved people would be spared the sudden shock of learning that things were not as expected.
In Aberystwyth Muicipal Cemetery, which is where the 1887 Grant was taken out, they are no longer taking new burials, only in existing graves. The site of the new cemetery is a couple of miles out of town so presumably there is now more space. Will not directly concern me as I'm not going there unless I'm shoe-horned into an existing grave.
Cheers Dave
-
I personally think RC Burials are one of the Best Kept Secrets in how they are treated after a period of time due to the fact their cemeteries are privatly owned and not goverened by the same Legislation as Council Cemeteries.
In the last year I was at a meeting where a Lawyer for the RC church was asked to explain their Rite of Burial being reduced to 75 years and the fact they can open a Poor Ground Grave after 30 years.
His answer to a full room of people was that they have the right to re sell a grave when the lease is up. Any remains are then pushed to the bottom/shoved into the side or removed. Or they sell the Grave as is FULL and the new purchaser does not have the right to know they are paying for a Grave that here in Ireland could contain as we have proven as many as ten to fifteen burials.
He did say however that for a fee it can be renewed and another 25 years can be added but no more. His explaination was that according to the RC church a Familiy dies out in 125 years.
At present I am involved in a situation where the RC Church sold land that contains over 30.000 infants and 27,000 Adults to a Nature Reserve without the knowledge of any living relative of all who are buried there. On Going at present with the completion of a full survey by an Independant Company to locate all burials results report will be issued this Month August 2011.
The Cemetery is Milltown Roman Catholic Cemetery Belfast.
Erin
-
In Spain they 'bury' people in niches in a wall just like a honeycomb. The hole is then bricked up and memorial tablets can be attached to the front. The richer folk have rather grand mausoleums. What happens in Cyprus?
Dave
Dave to answer you question in Cyprus where I am located the deal is you are buried within 24 hours due to the extreme heat. You pay to borrow a Coffin that fits you to take you on the back of a pickup truck from the Morgue to the cemetery where a plot is dug about three feet. You are then removed from the coffin and placed in the Grave and covered over in a heaped fashion.
A Holy Man of your Denomination most times will be present to see you safely on your way. Done Dusted and the Grave is yours in perpituity.
No Hype No massive costs and all done with the greatest respect for the Deceased and Family.
There is No Cremation in Cyprus it is against the Teaching of the Greek Orthodox Church.
Erin
-
Sounds very straightforward and sensible to me rather than all the fuss, bother and expense in UK. If I had a 'family home' in UK I think I would opt to be buried in a cardboard box in the garden. There would then be minimal expense and would be in perpetuity or at least as long as the kids kept the house.
Dave
-
Dave I agree and now you can I hear be buried in Bio-degradable Coffins and that is the way furure burials in the UK are gonna be. Something to be said for Burials at Sea at least you have loads of space...lol
As for the Kids I am sure mine would sell the House and blow the Dosh in Ayia Napa....
Erin
-
There are still the complicated legal and financial aspects of burial in a formal cemetery the Cypriot scheme as you described sounds great. Shows my age but I remember Paphos as a remote fishing village and never heard of Ayia Napa! A day out was having lunch and a few beers on the front at Limassol.
Dave
-
You are so right Dave I remember Ayia Napa (Holy Wooded Valley) as a Wooded Valley with not a sign of a Tourist. Just Farmers and Fishermen. When people had time for each other and the topic of their conversation wasn't "Smile and Take the Money"
Erin
-
Same where I am now. First came to this small village 20+ years ago clutching a Spanish dictionary - had to know some words or starve. Now the locals practice their English on you, but it's progress. Could never get the hang of Greek though, only one regular verb, three voices, different alphabet etc managed to scrape 8o/o in 'O' Levels much to the the dismay of a cousin who was a classics scholar...........................
I do love the Med, Dave
-
As an afterthought, I never fully recoverd from my first taste of cheap white Cypriot wine, it took at least half a bottle to appreciate it; the red retsina with the kebabs or meses. I did so love the glass carboys of red wine and brandy encased in wickerwork. What was the name of the sweet fortified wine not quite like a sweet sherry?
From my meanderings I reckon a viable option for me, at the end of the day would be pickling, like Lord Nelson.
Dave
-
Hi Dave Cyprus is famous for it's Zivania which is their version our Irish Poteen except where we Irish use the Skin of the Spuds the Cypriots make theirs from the skin of the Grape. Served from the Freezer and it sure is Fire Water..lol
Most Tourists go for the White Aphrodite or Red Othello Wines and miss all the excellent wines that are available. It's the Life that we all head off for until we are swamped by people who only wish to make as many changes as possible and then the life we all found is lost.
I have lived aside Fishermen for many years and who could not give a toss about anything only their Family and their Catch. And that suits me just fine.
Erin
-
Zivania seems to be the Cypriot equivalent of Spanish Orujo, Italian Grappa and French Marc. The sweet fortified wine I meant was, I think, something to do with Queen Berengaria, wife of Richard I. She was the only Queen of England never to set foot on English soil.
Dave
-
There are many stories of Richard in Cyprus but the best one was Dave.
When he arrived needing wood for repairs to his ship while on a Crusade. This was refused because the Locals did not want to cut down their beloved trees.. So he just upped and took the Island just to get the Trees and was so pissed off he then nicked the Queen....lol..lol
Later to just give it away because he was still so pissed off...lol
Commendaria is the Sweet Wine you refer to Dave.
Erin
-
That's the one - used to buy it in 5 litre glass, later plastic, containers. I'd heard the wood cutting story but thought Berengeria followed him to Cyprus and they were married in Limassol. Some stories say the marriage was never consummated and various reasons are given for that ::) I love a bit of history, Dave
-
Cyprus Dave is full of History and it's people are a European Mix. The Island has been conquered/ Given away/ Sold/ you name it and Cyprus has done it.
St. Pauls Pillar in Pafos where he was scurged...
The Church of St. Lazerus who became the first Bishop of Larnaca and is buried there...
The Tomb's of the Kings of Greece...
The Mosaics in Pafos...
Too Many to mention aside from The Sea Battle of Richard the Lionheart off the coast of Famagusta..
Erin