RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: straea on Thursday 21 July 11 19:36 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone,
I've been reading Rootschat on and off for a few years, but I haven't posted on here before. Amongst others, I am researching an Evans family of Hartland, Devon. On the 1851 census, the father, John Evans (b. c. 1790), reports that his occupation is "Chelsea Pensioner." However, I have been unable to find anyone in the database to date who has a birth place of Devon and was born in the right time period, and many of the pensions that don't have indexed birth places and birth dates don't have them because the original records don't say either. If the name was uncommon, I suppose this might be easier, but there are numerous John Evans who appear to have no birth place, residence or age listed on the original records. Since this was a census, and I don't know yet whether or not he really served in the military, I am unsure at this point whether I should keep looking and if so, what I could try next. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
Thank you.
-
Hi,,Can you quote the 1851 census reference? ;)
-
Sure - I wasn't sure how detailed to be in my post. They're living in Hartland, Devon (registration district Bideford) in 1851 - Piece 1895, Folio 574, Page 34. The household is:
John K Evans 55
Ann Evans 57
Charles Evans 24
Grenville Wakely 79
This is the only record to date where I have seen John Evans listed with a middle initial, so I don't know whether he really had one or not.
In 1841 they are also living in Hartland - Piece 223, Book 4, Folio 6, Page 6. However this time John is listed as a Pauper.
-
his son was also in the army,,so that suggests he may have followed in his fathers footsteps,,,Charles was in the 75th foot,,so i wonder if his father served in the same regiment? will have a dig around ;)
-
Thanks very much for the tip--I haven't traced Charles or some of the other kids yet, as I had some trouble sorting out which couple was the right John and Ann Evans (I knew from the baptismal record that those were the names of the parents of "my" John Evans who moved to Canada). I will check Charles' record next.
-
He did indeed have a second name beginning with K.
John Kinsman Evans bp.7/2/1796 Hartland, Devon, son of Ann Evans.
As he appears to be illegitimate I suspect that Kinsman was the surname of his father. (on familysearch).
I'm sure it's not what you want to hear but there were 3 Evans women having a number of illegitimate children between them in Hartland - Ann, Mary and Elizabeth.
There were also Kinsman's in Hartland and a possible father is John Kinsman bp.1/10/1773 Hartland son of John and Elizabeth.
Annette
-
Thank you Annette. What I want to hear is the truth, whatever that is. Which FamilySearch database did you find John Kinsman Evans' baptism in? I think now is a good time for me to step back and make sure I am on the right track. This is what I have for John Evans besides the 1841 and 1851 censuses:
Baptised son Richard on 3 Feb 1822.
Baptised my ancestor, John Evans, at the parish church in Hartland on 11 Jan 1824. This is the only child's baptism for which I have a copy of the original record so far, rather than a transcript. It is what gave me John and Ann's names in the first place.
Baptised son Charles on 15 Oct 1826. (Charles' whereabouts in 1841 are as yet unknown.)
William born c. 1831
Jane born c. 1833
I have not been able to find a marriage record for John and Ann to date, but I may not have searched the right database or the right way yet. However most of the siblings' names are repeated by my ancestor John Evans and his wife Grace - their known children included ones named Charles, William, and Jane. I have a a couple ideas for next steps besides trying to locate the Chelsea pension and tracing the children I haven't finished tracing yet: I noticed that though the family appears to have moved between 1841 & 1851, the same family is living next door both times, headed by William and Isott Evans. I have located their marriage in the index and some indexed baptisms for their children and am thinking of trying to reconstruct their family as a way to try to figure out the family relationships. I also found the death of Grenville Wakely on FreeBMD (he is on the 1841 and 1851 censuses with the family, listed as an uncle in 1851) and have been considering ordering the certificate.
I have looked through a lot of census records and similar in recent months trying to determine that I have the right John and Ann. Do you all feel that I am on the right track with the census info, the Chelsea pension and the info you have found and posted today? With a common name like Evans I tend to wonder a lot if I am following the trail of the wrong person.
Thanks so much for helping me - I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I'm going to see now if having the "K" to add in a search of military records helps me locate John's.
-
I found the baptism - thanks again. Interestingly one of Ann Evans' other illegitimate children is named Thomas, which is another name that my ancestor John Evans used for a child, one his wife's family does not appear to have used. Thanks for all your help everyone.
-
Have found the baptisms of William and Jane -
William Buse Evans bp.14/6/1829 Hartland
Jane Evans bp.21/8/1831 Hartland
Suspect that mother Ann's maiden name was Buse.
I note that in 1851 Ann is shown as 2 years older than John but born in Hartland.
An Ann Buse bp.25/3/1789 Hartland, dau. of William Buse and wife Ann (nee Bond).
Granville Wakely bp.8/8/1773 Hartland, son of Samuel Wakely and Ann Bond. Looks like he could be the uncle of Ann rather than John with the connecting name being Bond.
Charles Evans in 1841 appears to be working as a servant in Hartland to a John T. Vine, Yeoman.
You definitely seem to be on the right track. From memory, marriages in Devon circa 1820 are not well covered online.
Annette
-
Have found the marriage on FindMyPast:
John K. Evans married Ann Buse 16/4/1821 Bideford, Devon.
Annette
-
Thanks so much, Annette. I found an Ancestry tree that had John Kinsman and Ann Evans as John Evans' parents, and listed his wife's maiden name as Ann Buse and William's middle name as Buse (William was the only child of John and Ann that was listed in the tree). But it didn't have sources, and it was evening by then here in the US, so I decided to wait to try to follow up on it till today. And then I logged in and you already had! :-) What does FindMyPast stand for? Did you find the other baptisms/marriages on FamilySearch too? I've looked more through the Devon Family History Society's indexes than FamilySearch's so far but it seems like this particular family has more of theirs on FamilySearch than in the DFHS's old parish register holdings.
-
Also, if you would like to move the part of this thread that doesn't have to do with John's possible service to the Devon board, that would be fine with me. I don't want to bother anyone by cluttering up this board with stuff that doesn't have to do with the military.
-
Thanks so much, Annette. What does FindMyPast stand for?
FindMyPast = FindMyPast (website)
Dawn M
-
Thanks, Dawn - I didn't make the connection :) I think their Devon baptisms are mostly from the DFHS collection.
-
FindMyPast is findmypast.co.uk. According to that site the source is Devon Family History Society.
I added the marriage and birth details because you stated originally that you'd only found one instance of John Evans with a middle initial of K and weren't sure if this was fact or not.
Believe that FindMyPast are continually adding to their service records so perhaps a record for John Kinsman Evans will emerge in due course.
Annette
-
Annette, I know why you added it, and I thank you again very much for helping me. I was just saying that if you want to continue discussing on the Devon board instead of this one that would be fine with me. Since, as I mentioned in my first post, there are several John Evans in the FindMyPast Chelsea pensioners record set that don't have much identifying info, he could already be up there without my knowing it's the right John. Hopefully the information that you all have found will help me narrow down the possibilities. Thanks again!
-
Just wanted to provide an update. After looking through the Chelsea pension records again I have still been unable to identify the correct John Evans and am still not sure whether he was really a Chelsea pensioner or not, though in what seems to have been a fairly small parish I'd imagine the census taker probably knew all the residents. I did easily find Charles Evans' service file though and based on the age he said he was when he was enlisted I believe that it is likely the other Charles Evans from Hartland, who was baptised in 1829 rather than in 1826 as "my" Charles was. The Charles who served said he was only 16 when he was enlisted so it would only be my Charles if he lied about his age and I am not sure why someone would lie and say they were a minor if they weren't. I also realized when I looked back through my small-so-far file on William and Isott (John and Ann's next door neighbors in the censuses) why the surname Buse sounded familiar - according to the transcript it was Isott's maiden name. I wonder if two brothers married two sisters.
-
FindMyPast is findmypast.co.uk. Annette
While this thread is about UK, FindMyPast is not just findmypast.co.uk.
There are other country versions, e.g. findmypast.com.au and findmypast.ie at least.
Which is why I didn't put an ending on the name. :D
Dawn M.
-
Hi everyone,
I haven't been on RootsChat in a bit, and thought I would provide an update on my search. I ordered John Kinsman Evans' death record from the GRO. I had last found him on the 1851 census but he didn't die till 1873. The death record did turn out to be him (easier to locate with his full middle name!) and he was living at 1 Old Town in Bideford when he died, his death reported by William Copp, who listed the same address. I used FindMyPast's census address search to discover that he was living with the Copps in 1871, but listed on the census as John Kinsman. Both the death record and the 1871 census also list his occupation as "Chelsea pensioner," so I am now about as sure as one can be in genealogy that he really was one. However, I still have not located his file. I did use the new records to determine that John's daughter Jane was William Copp's wife.
I had also been unable to locate him on the 1861 census, and I used this new information to determine that he was not living with the Copps then. A general search for John Kinsman also turned up no candidates. So I remain unsure where he was in 1861.
Thanks again for all your help on this, everyone.
-
Hi again, everyone,
I have another update on my search for John Kinsman Evans's military records. This past weekend I found an obituary and a death notice for him in different newspapers. They also describe him as a pensioner, and provide a good deal of new-to-me information: According to the obituary, he enlisted when he was about age 15 (he was 'illegitimate' so would not have needed his parents' permission since legally he had no parents) and was in two of the "engagements" of the Peninsular War, the first under "General Graham" and the second under "Marshal Sir Wm. Beresford." It also says that he was shot in the leg while serving and "was invalided on sixpence a day." If he did enlist at about age 15, it would have been around 1811. I know that he was back in Devon by 1821 as he married there then and began baptizing children. I have been going back through the FindMyPast military records definitively ruling out people one-by-one now that I have a lot more information. Does anyone have any further suggestions for what I can try? Would there be likely to be records about him at the National Archives that aren't on FindMyPast to date?
Thank you.