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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: angelai on Friday 15 July 11 13:57 BST (UK)
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Smith Family
I am looking for Nicholas Smith born 1870 ireland he married Mary Welsh, cannot find
nothing on on SP for this. I have a marriage certificate for their daughter Mary anne she was born 1900 in Gorbals glasgow she married John Joseph Downie on 1921 27 Jun Age: 2 at ST JOHN'S CHURCH PORTUGAL ST It says that her father is deceased on the marriage certificate, Mother is still alive address at the time was 29 SALISBURY ST GLASGOW. Any help is appreciated
Angela
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Hi Angela
Have you managed to find daughter Mary Ann's birth cert? This should include date and place of parents' marriage which will give you some clues.
Struggling to find them on the 1901 census transcript. Have you been able to find them on this or the 1911 census?
Monica :)
Added: Just adding this post of yours which has a little bit more detail www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,526275.0.html
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Hi Monica
I still don't have a birth certificate I have a few from SP but they turned out to be the wrong Maryann. There are so may Mary anne Smith's on SP it would cost a fortune. I googled the chapel hoping to email them but no history for St. Johns in Portugal st is coming up.
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Can I ask, how have you connected Mary Welsh to parents Richard and Ann? Also, from what source do you have father Nicholas showing as born c. 1870 in Ireland?
Have you had any luck on the censuses for the family?
What occupation showed for father Nicholas on Mary Ann's marriage cert?
Any family names for witnesses at the 1921 wedding?
.....Sorry about all the questions :P Every piece of info can help sometimes when searches are hard.
Have you gone down the route of searching for a death for mother Mary Welsh. I can see one entry showing for a Mary Welsh/Smith born c. 1873 in 1936 on SP. Not sure if this might be connected (names are not uncommon so hard to know).
Monica :)
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I googled the chapel hoping to email them but no history for St. Johns in Portugal st is coming up.
Someone else struggling to find the chapel www.network54.com/Forum/5317/message/1242994872/St+Johns,+Portugal+Street,+District+of+Gorbals,+Glasgow
Some photos here, www.mitchelllibrary.org/virtualmitchell/index.php?a=wordsearch&s=item&key=WczoxMDoic3Qgam9obidzICI7&pg=7 There looks to have also been a primary school attached to the church going by the photos.
Monica
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,532707.0.html
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Thanks Monica and Sancti
Do you know where I would find the records for St John's?
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You could try contacting the Scottish Catholic Archives www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/
Monica :)
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Monica
Mary Welsh was born on 1872, 26 Mar HUTCHESONTOWN, GLASGOW, LANARK, SCOTLAND to Richard Welsh and Ann Sergeant. Ann was married before to a Thomas Carmichael. Information came from SP and LDS. Richard was also a widower.
Richard and Ann got married on 1871,13 Jan Age: 32 at St. John's Chapel. Portugal St. Glasgow. Residence 102 Main Street Gorbals,Glasgow.It starts to get confusing on ancestry there is a few trees with a Richard married to aAnn McNamara so the census I find have all 3 names I don't know if it is them or Ann McNamara.
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angelai,
How did you confirm that is the Mary Welsh who married Nicholas Smith?
How do you know Mary Ann Smith was born in Gorbals 1900?
How do you know Nicholas Smith was born in Ireland?
What was Nicholas Smith's occupation on Mary Ann's marriage certificate?
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Mary and Nicholas were the names given on Mary Anne Smiths marriage certificate
My Mother said she was born there
Again my mother said Nicholas was Irish
On the marriage certificate it says carter or barter see attachment.
Moderator's comment: Sorry, Angela. Only small sections of original images can be attached here on RootsChat for help with deciphering due to copyright.
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Does it give an occupation for Mary Welsh
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Mary is listed as a ragstore worker. Storyis the Smith Family were rag and bone men
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Mary Ann Smith was born 1st August 1899 at 17 Middleton Place Glasgow and is listed as illegitimate but both Mary Welsh and Nicholas Smith signed the birth certificate
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Sancti you are AWESOME. Where did you find this information?
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Send me a pm with your email and I will forward the certificate
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Certificate sent
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I recieved it THANK YOU!
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Great find, Sancti ;)
Monica
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What was the occupation for mother Mary Welsh on daughter's birth cert in 1889? Was it also ragstore worker?
There is this entry in 1891 that could fit for mother:
Susan McFadyan 55, rag store worker b. Ireland
Mary Welsh 18, boarder, rag store worker b. Glasgow
Address 29 Bridgegate, Blackfriars, Glasgow
Struggling with young Mary Ann in the censuses :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica
Yes she was a ragstore worker, she was still a ragstore worker in 1921 on Mary Ann's marriage certificate
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No sign of Nicholas in 1901 either
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There is this record for 1901 with the possibility of the address being mistranscribed along with Maryann
Mary Welsh 31 Head born Ireland occupation scrubber
Ellen Welsh 1 daur born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Address: 17 Millers Place
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Sancti and Monica
Thanks for all your help. I am so thrilled to have finally gotten Mary's birth certificate after all these years of searching.
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Hi Sancti and Monica
On Mary's birth certificate it says that she is the 4th born child. I dont't have names for the other siblings. Do you know how I can search on SP to find the other siblings?
Angela
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Hi Angela
Which Mary is this? Is it Mary Ann b. 1899 or Mary Welsh?
Monica
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Hi Monica
It is mary Ann smith 1899 whos birth certificate says that she had 4 sibling on it mary welsh was her mother and Nicholas smith her father
Thanks angela
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Really unusual for a Statutory Scottish birth cert to state how many children (or the order of births). The only exception was entries for 1855 and pre official reg. on the Old Parish Registers. Could there be any confusion with the writing on the statutory register entry you have? Is the writing clear or could it be something else?
We had possible entries for Mary Welsh in 1891 and 1901. No other children showed with her if we have the right entries for her. She may well have had more children but hard to think how you could begin searching for them except doing as you have done for Mary Ann's birth.
Monica
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Monica
Here is a cropped coy of the birth certificate. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Thanks Angela
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Hi Angela
That second column is for when and where born. August First and then an address?
Monica
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Hi Monica
I have cropped the address out. Here is the column with the address
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Is it the time 5 H 30 Minute ???
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Thank you Monica and Sancti. Sancti I think you right.
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Scotlands people finally released my grandmothers Mary Smith's death certificate 1964. Now I'm even more confused. It gives her father as Nicholas Smith deceased then her mother as Mary Welsh afterwards Tollan also deceased. I've tried Scotlands people for a marriage and death for Mary Welsh Tollan but have had no luck. I have never found a marriage or death for her with Nicholas Smith. Any ideas where to go next.
Thanks Angela
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Can someone confirm what the last name is Tollan on the certificate for me. I have searched scotland's people I can't seem to find anything.
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Have you checked this one?
1920 TOLAN LOUIS and SMITH MARY at ST ANDREW (EDINBURGH
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Hi Sancti
On my grandmother's marriage certificate in 1921 her Mother was Mary Welsh, I don't have any evidence that she married Nicholas Smith. My grandmother was illegitimate. Nicholas was on my grandmother certificate as being deceased in 1921. I can't find a death certificate. On My grandmothers death certificate it is saying that her mother Mary Welsh later Tollan. So Her Mother Mary Welsh married after 1921. My grandmother died 1964.