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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: north01 on Monday 11 July 11 14:11 BST (UK)
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I am trying to locate the year and place of death of my great great grandmother, Eliza Hampton (married name May) who was born in Orange in 1866 (NSW BDM 12632/1866) Eliza was the daughter of William Henry Hampton (1835-1911) and Eliza Stevens (1840-1903).
Eliza had 8 siblings that I have identified, all of which have had their birth and death years recorded on various forums and on NSW BDM- Eliza is the one exception.
From my great grandmother's marriage certificate, she appeared to be still alive around 1920- Eliza's husband, William May is recorded as being deceased. I cannot find any evidence of re-marriage or moving interstate.
William and Eliza's 5 children were born around the Bourke and Cobar districts from around 1893-1904 and Eliza may also have lived in Nymagee. Cemetery records from all these areas have no record of her.
Any ideas on this would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Paul
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You probably have all of this.
Is this her marriage?
1883, Reg at COBAR, #4057
William MAY Eliza HAMPTON
The children I see listed on NSW BMDs with parents William MAY and Eliza are:
1884, reg at Nymagee, #18957
Eliza H MAY
1889, no place of registration noted
Joseph H MAY, reg no: V188901369 160
I note that her birth registration is for Eliza J HAMPTON
There is another child with parents William and Eliza J but registered at Sunny Corner. Given that William Henry and Eliza HAMPTON's deaths are registered at Sunny Corner it would seem feasible.
1888 reg at Sunny Corner, #15994
Alice M M MAY, parents WILLIAM and ELIZA J
Austcemindex has a photo of the grave of William and Eliza HAMPTON at Meadow Flat General cemetery. (There is no mention of either Eliza or William MAY that I could see.)
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=2755650
None of this helps find Eliza's death but does appear to show that she had connections in a wider area.
Judith
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Hi there,
Re SUNNY CORNER as noticed by Judith
From the 1903 Electoral Roll, Sunny Corner (in the Macquarie Electorate) has the following people surnamed HAMPTON
Joseph, a labourer at Badger Brush
Louisa Jane, domestic duties, at Sunny Corner
William Henry, a miner at Badger Creek
NONE listed with surname MAY ....
The 1889 birth for Joseph H May with the V reference is interesting, the V shows it is based on a parish record rather than a civil registration. It may be worthwhile following up on that, for a transcript of that V record would give the names of the parents, the place of that baptism including the denomination, and the occupation of the father. Volume 160 and line 01369 for 1889 .... Volume 160 is the interest .... it is outside the usual range, (usually stops around 123) and suggests to me it was perhaps a very late registration.
Cheers, JM
Edit to Add these links re NSW BDM
Early Church Records (the V series)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4
and
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/short-guide-2
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Re Joseph H May
From a commercial online website with an index of NSW BDM registrations they have indexed
his parents as William May and Eliza
the registration place as Nymagee, New South Wales
the year of registration as 1889
and the reference as Volume Number:V188901369 160
that same online index has a death for a Joseph May in 1892 with his parents recorded as William and Eliza with the death registered at Nyngan NSW. (Ref # 10073)
I notice that there is NO middle initial on that death registration, so I would hesitate to draw any conclusion as to if this would be for an infant death.
PS, I still have not found Eliza Hampton or May on any of the 1903 NSW Electoral Rolls that I have access to... but I am still looking :)
Cheers, JM
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I note in regard to the child ALICE M M MAY listed above by judb, that there was a death in NYNGAN
REG 10074 In1892 MAY ALICE M
Father WILLIAM
Mother ELIZA
NYNGAN
Also with a consecutive number to this is
Reg 10073 In 1892 MAY JOSEPH
Father WILLIAM
Mother ELIZA
NYNGAN
Sue
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Hi Paul
The MAY children born at Cobar and Bourke did not have William named as father which suggests Eliza was with another partner?
Birth records appear to me as if Eliza had ten eight children - the first five three from 1884-1892 with William named as father. Twins registered in 1892 at Nyngan did not survive. Sorry got births and deaths confused.
Essie
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NSW Electoral Roll 1903, Nymagee polling place (The Darling Electorate)
Joseph MAY, a miner
Margaret Bessie MAY, at her domestic duties
NONE at the Nymagee polling place with surname HAMPTON
Still looking :)
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps ???
NSW 1903 Coonamble (The Darling Electorate)
William MAY, a carpenter at Calga
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Thinking "outside the square" but there's a marriage registered Cobar in 1920 for Amy MAY to Charles S SMITH, Ref # 2306 and earlier there's a birth for Amy MAY with mother recorded as Eliza (no father's name displayed at the online index)... this was for 1902 and registered at Cobar #2272
If this elusive Eliza May nee Hampton was Amy's mother, then that 1920 m.c. should show Eliza's then current surname. ..... of course that would depend on if that information had been provided to the clergy.
Edit to Add I mention this because IF this bride was born 1902, then in 1920 she would have required the consent of a parent to marry, as she was not yet 21 years of age.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Paul,
Just wondering if any of the information we have all been posting is helping your research
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Re Eliza J Hampton born 1866 Orange ... do you have that b.c. please? I ask because the NSW BDM online index has her father's given name as HENRY while your post gives it as William Henry ... (ref # 12632 )
I am trying to locate the year and place of death of my great great grandmother, Eliza Hampton (married name May) who was born in Orange in 1866 (NSW BDM 12632/1866) Eliza was the daughter of William Henry Hampton (1835-1911) and Eliza Stevens (1840-1903).
.......
Any ideas on this would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Paul
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Thanks to everybody so far for the info and tips- I must say that this is the most elusive branch of the family on which to get info, so every little bit helps and is most appreciated.
I do have some of this already, but just to clarify some, firstly some of Eliza’s children, (Amy, Nelly and Robert) don’t have a father recorded on NSW BDM. I don’t know why- it may be possible that William May is not the father, as I have not been able to find out much about him either, neither birth nor death, only that he was a miner.
To my knowledge there were only 5 children- Alice (born 1893-died ?), Joseph (1896-1935) (will check the V series reference), Ellen/Nelly (1899-1987), Amy (1902-1989) (my great grandmother) and Robert (1904-died ?). Some of this date info could be wrong. There is a reference to another Alice May (born 1893) on BDM but I am not certain if this Alice May born at Sunny Corner is mine.
I would be very interested to confirm if there were more children.
Yes, the 1883 marriage between Eliza and William is them.
Yes, Amy and Charles Smith are my great grandparents, married Cobar 1920, Eliza uses the surname Hampton on the certificate and gave consent to the marriage, William May is recorded as being deceased- Eliza is recorded as living in Cobar on the certificate.
I have looked at the electorate rolls at the time too, and nothing jumps out there.
Yes, I was aware of the Hamptons at Sunny Corner Cemetery, but I also could not find Eliza there either. I don’t have Eliza’s birth certificate yet, but the wedding certificate says she was married at her father’s (WH Hampton) house- I have seen references to both Henry and William being used for her father’s first name.
Thanks again for all your assistance.
Regards
Paul
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Joseph H. M. (1896), Amy (1902), and Nelly L (1899) are also registered under the name Hampton. By this stage William, I'd imagine, is well out of the picture.
As it's unlikely there was a 10 years gap between getting married in and first child in 1893, I would agree that the older children with father's name William are likely to be theirs; William probably either died or left sometime around the late 1880s or early 1890s.
You mention Joseph's dates as being 1896-1935, where did this death take place?
The only one I can find in NSW is for a Joseph Hampton (parents William Henry and Eliza).
There is also a Joseph Henry May d. 1952 and his death notice says he was aged 56:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18284743?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Henry%20May%22
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Hi Jo
Sorry, I got the year round the wrong way for Joseph- I thought it was 1953, so thanks for checking. Don't have dc for him, but I think it's likely.
Regards
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Re the Electoral Rolls ...
It was not compulsory to enrol until sometime in the 1920's, so perhaps Eliza chose not to enrol, BUT ... on the other hand, her 1866 birth registration gives her a middle name starting with "J" ... do you know what that name was? Perhaps her death was registered under that name rather than Eliza (and its usual variants) ...
Cheers,
JM
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Hi JM
Her middle name was Jane- just checked on NSW BDM for a Jane Hampton or May and nothing obvious came up. Thanks for the idea- will check the electoaral rolls too.
Regards
Paul
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Hi there,
Thanks for "Jane" ... here's hoping it helps ;)
You mention five children for Eliza .... Perhaps there were more :
1884 Eliza H MAY birth registered Nymagee with William and Eliza recorded as parents # 18957
1889 Joseph H MAY birth registered Nymagee with William and Eliza recorded as parents # The “V” record
1893 Alice M M MAY birth registered Bourke, with only Eliza recorded as a parent # 7676
1896 Joseph H M HAMPTON birth registered Cobar with only Eliza M recorded as a parent #11785
1899 Nelly L HAMPTON/MAY birth registered Cobar with only Eliza J recorded as a parent #20149
1902 Amy HAMPTON/MAY birth registered Cobar with only Eliza recorded as a parent # 2272
1904 Robert MAY birth registered Cobar with only Eliza recorded as a parent # 2318
A transcript of Robert’s birth registration should include the names of his older siblings and also the then current address.
As I understand it, the rural/regional registrations were meant to be submitted by the deputy registrars by ordinary mail to Sydney on a quarterly basis, BUT sometimes those deputy registrars were very busy on their main duties (usually attached to the court house/police station etc, Sherrif/baliff duties).
Also, the Sydney HO was under funded and quite often the returns were received annually or not received at all. So while it seems out of chronological order, it is possible that the birth for Alice MM on the index as 1893 and the death of Alice 1892 is for the same child, but you would need transcripts to verify that suggestion.
The two consecutive numbers that Sue mentioned earlier may not be for two deaths that occurred at the same time, but simply be for two deaths in the same year, or two deaths indexed by NSW BDM’s HO at the same time.
However, because the wildcard option “ * “ is not currently available at the NSW BDM online index, I have not been able to determine if the registration numbers for all of that BDM district of Nyngan were indexed quarterly or annually. I hope that my ‘brief’ explanation of that admin process makes sense.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Perhaps you already know the following tip, but just in case ... NSW BDM online index headings can be sorted by clicking on the headings themselves. For example, I have just entered the following into a death search: given name "Jane" and fathers name "aged" and date range 1920 - 1970 ... and then clicked on the fathers name for the primary sort. Alternatively if you enter "died" under the mothers name without entering anything for the fathers name you get a different set of results. While nothing obvious re Eliza Jane jumps out at me, perhaps she's there and a surname may ring bells for you.
EDIT TO ADD "unknown" is also a good keyword to try for given names of parents
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for the tips and info again- it's very frustrating that there is no wildcard option available but I will experiment.
Regards
Paul
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Back to the 1903 Electoral Roll for the electoral of The Darling.
I will add to this post as I find any with surname HAMPTON or MAY or with given names Eliza or Eliza Jane (without any others with whatever surname for that lass ie looking for a lass possibly without same surname as her likely partner)
Cheers, JM
Edit 1 Polling Place Cobar : (no street details on this copy of the roll)
Mary Josephine HAMPTON, at her domestic duties
Edit 2 ... as an aside, again found my great aunt and uncle in Cobar so I recall that after WWI they and many of their copper mining neighbours moved to the Granville/Auburn/Parramatta districts of Sydney ...
Edit 3 Polling Place Nymagee
Eliza ABBOTT at her domestic duties
Elizabeth Jane HAINES at her domestic duties
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Perhaps ... not at all sure though ...
Sands NSW Alphabetical Directory 1925
Mrs Eliza MAY, 51 Evans St ROZELLE
Edit 1 to add, same entry in the 1920 directory
Edit 2 in the 1915 directory, Mrs Eliza MAY at 41 Evans St Rozelle
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the tips and info again- it's very frustrating that there is no wildcard option available but I will experiment.PAUL
Hi Paul,
Many chatters would agree with you. It has been the subject of some discussion in the forum.
If you would like to take a moment to let the Dept know how you feel, here is the link to the correct email address and form.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/customerFeedbackForm.htm
Sue
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Hi Paul,
I agree with Sue and I have used that feedback form, and my older rellies have written "stern" letters to NSW BDM (and their local MPs) ... I think the more people who express their disappointment over the removal of that wildcard option the better. If they had stopped the 'sort the headings' option instead of removing that wildcard option, I am sure it would be so much less frustrating.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sue/ JM
Will send a request through to BDM on that link- I think from memory Vic still have wildcard search option.
Had a look for Mays/ Hamptons around Rozelle and also chnaging headings on BDM - nothing obvious yet!
Regards
Paul
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Hi there Paul,
Perhaps you have already tried the NSW SRO Archives Investigator’s option for Probate Packets at this link http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Search.aspx
I chose the simple search option and entered “Eliza Jane death” for the keywords. There’s a fair few results come up, but I have chosen one as an example to follow up. I chose Eliza Jane Howard, date of death 9 April 1941 with probate granted 19 June 1941. (ie if that would be your elusive lass, then she would have been around 75 years of age)
1. Found the likely NSW BDM registration indexed on line. Her mother was recorded as Eliza (although her father was recorded as Thomas and not as William). It was registered at Mosman. #9409
2.Found the newspaper cutting online http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home in the SMH 10 April 1941. That lady was a widow, and a married daughter is named in the cutting. I won’t mention the daughter’s name here because she may be living. The Funeral notice (same issue of the paper) shows the funeral at St Lukes at Mosman and interment at Randwick. There would be other closer cemeteries to Mosman so it is likely that Mrs Howard’s wishes were for interment at Randwick.
3. If this were your elusive lass then I am sure you would be looking for headstone inscriptions and grabbing a plastic card to order a transcript of that d.c. ....
I chose that particular one to follow up because to me, the granting of probate within eight or nine weeks after death often indicates a small estate or an uncomplicated will, and afterall I am trying to help find your elusive Eliza Jane, perhaps you may be able to use that example to find either her, or perhaps other family members.
Edit to add Easter was 13 April in 1941, so there would have been several public holidays to observe and courts would have closed for those days, thus delaying any probates already in the system and possibly a backload so my thoughts re small or simple estate could be on track.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
There’s obviously more than one family with the surname MAY out at Cobar in the first two decades of the 1900’s. Just look at the marriages of females with that surname. Perhaps they were part of an extended family grouping.
NSW BDM gives Nellie MAY (presuming her mother was Eliza Jane Hampton) as marrying a Barney P DEIGNAN in 1916 (#3703) and a Caroline E MAY as marrying a John E DEIGNAN that same year (#3709). Perhaps there’s a connection between Barney and John as their surname is somewhat unusual. Perhaps some one from those families may have information about Nelly's parents.
In 1930, Bernard Patrick and Ellen DEIGNAN were at 87 Calero St Lithgow and John Edward and Caroline Ellen DEIGNAN were at 5 Selwyn St Lithgow.
At Ryerson Index it gives Nelly Louise DEIGNAN as “See BANNERMAN, Nelly Louise” and I think that lass would be Eliza Jane’s daughter. The notice for Nelly is based on the Lithgow Mercury of 29 Jan 1987.
The Lithgow Cemetery Index has Bernard Patrick DEIGNAN’s burial as 29 May 1956, Uniting section 2, row 1 plot 02 and Nelly Bannerman aged 87 burial 29 Jan 1987 same plot. Perhaps there’s mention of either of her parents or siblings in the newspaper cutting or on any MI at the grave.
http://www.council.lithgow.com/cemetery.html (downloadable index for the interments in Lithgow City Council’s boundaries up to 19 Nov 2009 at present)
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Will go down the probate route too- might narrow it down that way.
With regards to Nellie or Ellen May, she was my great grandmother's sister. She was actually married and widowed twice to Barney Deignan and Stewart Bannerman. I have seen the John Deignan and Caroline May connection in BDM before too- it is too much of a coincidence- perhaps Caroline and Nelly were cousins- I have yet to find definitive evidence, despite the fact that Caroline's parents are recorded in BDM, but like you suggest, someone in the extended family may know. Same goes for the Deignans.
Is it possible that this could have been a double wedding? (without ref to the wedding certificates themselves). The registration nos are very close together.
Have you had any dealings with Cobar Historical society before? I'm thinking they may have records, but in the mass exodus from Cobar to Sydney from 1918 onwards (including my great grandparents) I don't know what records would remain.
Thanks once again for all your assistance.
Regards
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Many of my forebears were in the Western Division of NSW for several generations, from around 1870's, some were still there post WWII. eg Louth, Tilpa, Bourke, Cobar, and all through there up to the Qld border ... some were drovers, shearers, skin tanners, miners, policemen, postmasters/mistresses, hotelkeepers etc ....
I have various offline resources that mainly feature those backblocks, but despite looking and looking, I have not spotted Eliza Jane. I will find time over the next day or so to follow the Deignan surname up, as it would be a tad easier than SMITH ...
Much of the Cobar info is found in the Bourke Historical Society's records.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
I think there would be a good chance that those MAY families were related somehow. I cannot find where Robert MAY's 1904 birth was registered in any other surname, unlike his older sisters Nelly and Amy. I think Robert could be a family name perhaps .... There's so many different polling places in that 1903 electorate for The Darling.
But here's some likely entries for Caroline's parents, or their forebears from Cobar from that 1903 roll
George MAY, a miner at Cobar
Robert MAY, a miner at Cobar
Robert MAY, a miner at NORTH Cobar
Sarah MAY, at her domestic duties at NORTH Cobar
I will have a good look tomorrow
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
The NSW BDM (30451/1897) lists Caroline May's parents as Robert and Sarah E. LIke you say, there seems to have been a myriad of Mays.
Regards
Paul
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Hi Paul,
In my offline resources, I can find lots of info about various Deignan families in Bourke and Cobar in the late 19thC, but still nothing on William MAY.
But, just in case you don’t have this cutting, it is for Eliza Jane Hampton / May’s father and was in the Broken Hill newspaper ...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/45169556 21 October 1911 Barrier Miner
Also, I wonder about the following death registered at Cobar in 1899 .... William T MAY, only the mother’s given name is recorded online ... Elizabeth J .... Ref #1212
Also spotted this one from 1891 registered at Wilcannia ... William MAY, no given names for either parent #15779 ... My offline index shows this was an Inquest in Nov 1891, which found it was an accidental drowning he was around 30 years of age, and there was about £10. The online image of the index of inquests etc shows he was aged 20, (not 30) and the Inquest was held at Wilcannia on 21 Nov 1891. It does not state where the accident occurred, (probably/possibly along the Darling, which was rather ‘full’ as the newspapers have the river at 31 ft at Wilcannia in mid Oct 1891).
Your Great Grandmother is so very elusive, so too is her son Robert ... do you know who he was named after ? .... It seems so unlikely he was named after Eliza Jane's husband ...
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for finding that reference- would explain why Hamptons moved frequently around western NSW, being a mine manager.
Re William May, marriage certificate has him as being aged 21 at time of marriage in 1883 so I assume he was born around 1862- his parents and place of birth are not recorded. This would fit the time for the drowning person (if aged 30).
Regards
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Re missing info on 1883 m.c. The NSW BDM online site shows that they have not ever completed the reconciliation process for many of those pre WWI marriages. (Its another of my gripes re NSW BDM), BUT there is a way to find out the missing information... I presume that the details about the bride and groom and their parents etc is blank...
The m.c. will have the denomination and the church.... so you have a couple of alternatives that spring to mind.
a) contact that local parish
b) contact a family history group in that area
You would be seeking access to the local parish records*, which the clergy who celebrated that marriage would have kept. In that registry the clergy would have listed the names of the parents for both the bride and groom, the occupations of their fathers, and perhaps even mentioned if any of them were already deceased. He would have also noted the birth place and age of the bride and groom. * or a transcript of these, perhaps already held by a fh group etc
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm scroll down a bit, find the section headed from 1879 keep reading and notice that they have not yet completed the reconciliation. And then consider that could also mean that they has been no 'audit' to check if all the marriages in any church in the western division has ever checked to make sure ALL the registrations were received by NSW BDM (I am quite positive that many were not !) ....
Cheers, JM
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Hi Paul,
As Eliza Jane was about 17 when she married William MAY, then that m.c. should also show who gave consent for her to marry .... She was legally a minor (under 21).
The clergy have always been required to obtain the age of the bride and groom, and also the express permission of a parent or guardian for a minor to marry, as well as the names of the parents of both the bride and groom, and all the other details too.
Cheers, JM
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Paul
May I jump belatedly in on the Deignan conversation? I am distantly related to the Stewart Bannerman who married Ellen Louise Deignan in 1958 in Lithgow, NSW. If I'm reading your post correctly, she was born Ellen Louise May and was first married to Bernard Patrick Deignan. She was buried on 29 Jul 1987 in Lithgow Cemetery. Is that right?
Thanks, Geneaglutton
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Hi Geneaglutton
Yes, that's correct. Ellen (Nelly) May (1899?-1987) married to Stewart (Blue) Bannerman and before that Bernard Deignan. She was a widow twice.
Paul
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Thank you, Paul.