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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: hopeful1915 on Sunday 10 July 11 06:36 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm located in Port Augusta, SA, a thousand kilometres away from Gundagai. I'm looking for information about my ancestor Margaret HUNT , who was possibly born BOURKE, though I have also been told that she had 2 husbands before Charles HUNT - the surnames COOK and Phillips have been suggested.
Was Margaret really Gov. Bourke's Niece?
When she died in 1906 the Sydney Morning Herald published this article" (20 Oct 1906, p 6) "Mrs Margaret HUNT, mother of Alderman Hunt, and a highly respected resident of Gundagai for over 40 years died on Friday night aged 89 years. The deceased lady was a niece of Governor Bourke. Her husband, Mr Charles HUNT, died last year."
I have been told that she was born in about 1818 - presumably in Ireland. That makes her 40-odd years younger than Gov. Bourke (dob 1777).
Margaret could have arrived on her own before the age of 19, which is roughly her age in 1836 when Bourke resigned and returned to Ireland. She could have come out at a separate time from Bourke, of course.
Is there anyone who has access to Bourke's correspondence on microfilm who could find out whether a niece is mentioned? I gather it is microfilmed as part of the Joint Cpying Project. M8163.
I'd be grateful for any information on Margaret and her family, or that of Charles HUNT, who is another mystery. Trisha
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Hi Trisha,
Welcome to Rootschat.
Link: http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
In 1877 Margaret Philipps married Charles Hunt in the District of Gundagai, Reg#3080.
Cheers,
Janet.
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Have you seen the 1906 death certificate, and 1877 marriage certificte?
They should have enough information to suggest earlier marriages for Margaret.
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Trisha,
In 1854 Margaret Burke married Thomas Philips, Reg#V1854112 100/1854, District LF.
Cheers,
Janet.
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Hi Janet, thank you for that. Are you able to provide more detail? Does it say in what church, for example? Another problem is that 'their son' (and only child) Alfred was born in 1864 according to legend, but I can't find his birth record in any indices online ... and I find it hard to believe that you could grow up in a place like Gundagai telling lies about your birth, although the family legend does say he was born in Lambing Flat (=Young, NSW) .. anohte very small place.
There is so much mystery surrounding CHarles that I wonder a lot about them all. The thing about Governor Bourke, though, surely would be unwise to lie about in the 1860s, so soon after he left, though maybe by the 1900s .. ?
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Wivenhoe, you are right, I need to see the certificates. Was just hoping someone had preceded me down this track, particularly re the relationship to Gov Bourke aspect.
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Hi Trisha,
Sorry, but I cannot give you any more information than what is on the online index.
If you would like to obtain details of Margaret's marriage(s) or death the quickest and least expensive method is via a transcription agent who will email you the details.
Transcription Agents:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
If you require an Official certificate:
Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages - New South Wales:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
Details on New South Wales Certificates:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/familyHistoryCertificates.htm
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Hope this helps a little.
Cheers,
Janet.
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Trisha,
Maybe of interest:
Alfred Hunt died 1908, parents listed as Charles and Margaret. District of Gundagai. Reg#9691.
Cheers,
Janet.
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Have orderted death cert of Margaret HUNT nee BURKE (maybe) will let you know. Any info about Governor Bourke's correspondence or family tree welcome, Trisha
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Hi there,
Brief Bio information about Sir Richard Bourke http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bourke-sir-richard-1806 .... notice that his papers are held at the NSW State Library .... here's a link to the Library http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/
Also have you tried the digitised newspapers at this link .... there may be many mentions of Governor Bourke and family members including possibly your lass http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Cheers, JM
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Thanks, Majm .. I have not been able to spot any mentions of his niece, but had many a happy hour reading the old papaers .. what a boon! I am feelign more and more doubtful about this claim ... but thought I'd try in case there was a crumb of truth in it. Have not given up yet ... but the papers' position in the NSW State library is not all that convenient, being 1500 km away.
Will keep plugging away .. now waiting for Margaret's birth certificate to arrive, though of course, as we know, it will ony tell us what somebody said after she died. Just had a thought .. since my name has changed a couple of times, too, just like Margaret, I might be wise to draft out the information needed for my death certificate, in case my ghostly promptings are not clear enough for those left with that sad task when I am gone. I found when my dear Dad died recently that I was the only one of we siblings absolutely on top of all details of Dad's mother's name, etc. Another benefit of this hobby!
Thanks for all assistance, Trisha
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Hi there,
Perhaps if you contacted the NSW State Library by email they may be able to check if there is a family tree chart for Sir Richard Bourke in those papers ....
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/using/contact/index.html
I have found them to be very helpful.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
From the 1903 NSW Electoral Roll for the electorate of THE HUME, and polling place of Gundagai
Alfred HUNT, Punch Street, innkeeper
Annie HUNT, Punch Street, domestic duties
Charles HUNT, Kimo Hill, farmer
Marguerite Mary HUNT, Riverview Cottage, domestic duties
Cheers, JM
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Re Charles Hunt
From the NSW SRO online index http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
Charles Hunt of Gundagai died 3 August 1905 and probate was granted 30 Sept 1905.
M Hunt of Gundagai died 26 Oct 1906, probated 6 May 1907
A Hunt of Gundagai died 23 August 1908, probated 25 Jan 1909
NSW Probate packets often include more than just the will and the administration papers. From my own experiences, I have found copies correspondence and also copies of bdm certs in the packets of several of my NSW forebears. And now the NSW SRO offer a copy service for probate packets.
....There is so much mystery surrounding CHarles that I wonder a lot about them all. ....
Cheers, Fingers crossed
JM
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Hi there,
That Bio link for Richard Bourke that I posted earlier gives some family history info :
Richard Bourke was born 4 May 1777 in Dublin. His parents were John Bourke of Drumsally, County Limerick and Anne Ryan a daughter of Edmund Ryan of Boscable, County Tipperary .
Richard Bourke married Elizabeth Bourke in 1800. Her father was also named John Bourke, and Elizabeth was his youngest daughter.
So, re Mrs M Hunt the likely niece for Gov. Bourke .... to be his niece she was most likely a daughter either of Richard’s or of Elizabeth’s siblings, and thus perhaps you may need to find her likely parents. Hopefully she was nee Bourke, but if either Richard or Elizabeth had sisters then perhaps there would be a different nee surname.
Anyway, from the image of that 1800 marriage for your lass’ possible uncle and aunt ... I read :
Richard Bourke Esq of the parish of Ellingham in the county of Surry and Elizabeth Jane Bourke of this Parish (JM notes this as St Margaret Lothbury in the City of London), were married by Licence twenty-sixth day of March 1800 by the Rev’d John W Bourke.
The witnesses signed, but I am having trouble deciphering those signatures.... I think the first witness was surnamed Bourke, but cannot figure out the initials, and I think the second witness was Robert Hugh but cannot figure out the surname. I will attach a snip, in case the surnames indicate family members for either the bride or groom and thus point towards the family surname for Sir Richard’s niece.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you all very much for these further clues! Alfred was the only child (by the name of HUNT) of Margaret and Charles ... "Charles the Mysterious", I call him, but that's another story, which I will ask about one of these days.
I gather there was another Charles HUNT family in Gundagai in the mid-1800s, some or all of whom were swept away in The Big Flood of .. um .. 1850-60-ish. There were a few Big Floods!
I don't think Marguerite Mary HUNT, Riverview Cottage, domestic duties was connected, but have tucked her away.
The Probate information might well be really helpful - thank you for that suggestion ... I will contact them immediately.
Thanks, Trisha
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I think that signature might be Robt Hugh Kennedy ... not sure baout hte Bourke initials either.
Trisha
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and in case it helps anyone else:
According to the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922 (Governor) General Richard Bourke arrived on the ship Margaret (how confusing!) on 2 Dec accompanied by his wife (Elizabeth nee Ryan) sons (John) and Richard, and daughter (Elizabeth) .. the bits in parentheses are not on the actual image.
There is no extra Miss Bourke, which isn't evidence really, as the wife died a few months later, and it's possible that a cousin was asked to come out to be a companion to the daughter.
Will endeavour to find a way of consulting those correspondence papers ... though the microfilmed copies still seem a good chance, as according to the Trove record they contain odds and end of correspondence, including some from MIss Bourke to someone on religious matters, i.e. personal stuff.
Happy searching and pondering, all! Trisha
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The obit for Charles Hunt mentions the great flood of 1870.
(The Sydney Morning Herald - Saturday 5 August 1905 )
GUNDAGAI, Thursday. "Mr. Charles Hunt, aged 79, died to-day. He came to the colony 63 years ago, and was present at all the big mining rushes in this State. He was the first man to sink a shaft on the Snowy River. Deceased was a resident of Gundagai for 40 years. In the '70 flood he had heavy losses, his place being swept away, and a large sum of money he had in the house was lost. Deceased went through many phases of life, mining, grazing, and farming. He leaves one son, Alderman Hunt, of Gundagai."
The Sydney Morning Herald - Thursday 5 May 1870 -
A description of this flood event mentions a Mr Bourke living next to the Commercial Hotel. A number of BOURKE bmds for Gundagai and thereabouts. Possible connections to Margaret?
From what I've seen (so far) there was only one Charles HUNT at Gundagai.
Essie
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I tend to think that Marguerite Mary HUNT on the 1903 Electoral Roll would be the wife of Charles Hunt. It is very likely that Charles had been on the roll for many years, and perhaps the address shown on that 1903 roll is mis-leading you to think otherwise. The address for Marguerite would be the address she gave when enrolling in 1902. It is the name of the home, but it does not give the name of the street/road etc.
Marguerite and Margaret may well be inter-changeable names.... Margaret being the name "heard" by others when she was announcing it, while Marguerite was her actual name.
From trove, I read of Alfred Hunt .... SMH 2 September 1908 "....Probate Jurisdiction.-In the Will of ALFRED HUNT, late of Gundagai, in the State of Sew South Wales, hotelkeeper, deceased -Application will be made after fourteen days from the publication hereof that Probate of the last Will and Testament of the abovenamed deceased may be granted to ANNE HUNT, the sole Executrix....."
I will try to find Charles HUNT on earlier rolls in the Gundagai area, and also try to find Thomas Phillips (and variations) in that area also.
Perhaps Alfred's 1864 birth was registered under the surname Phillips.
Cheers, JM Edit to Add, Like Essie, So far, I have found only ONE HUNT family in that area at that time
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NSW ER 1870 The Hume
Charles HUNT, Yarra Yarra, The Billabong
NSW ER 1878 The Hume
Charles HUNT, Copabella
No likely sightings for Thomas Phillips (or variations).... Remembering that a Margaret Burke was married to a Thomas Phillips and then quite some time later a Margaret Phillips married Charles Hunt. If that is the same bride, then perhaps she was past bearing children when marrying Charles Hunt. I have noticed that children from earlier marriages often took on the new surname of their mother.
Of course, bdm certificates may help clear up any confusion. Albert Hunt's marriage cert could help, and if there are any blanks on that cert (or on Charles Hunt's) then that may be simply because the NSW BDM Reg General has not ever completed reconciling their records with the local parish records. Those m.c.s from that era are often incomplete. The information was of course provided by the bride and groom at the time of the marriage and is likely still available in the local parish archives. Perhaps a family history group in the Gundagai area may have transcribed their local parish records... perhaps even have transcribed the parish' family history sheet on which the clergy entered additional details. (eg arrival into the colony, and then the district, names of family members, dates of birth, baptisms, marriages, burials etc)....
Cheers, JM
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From 1867 directory of Walter Samson & Co Country Districts The HUME
Ten Mile Creek
C Hunt, Yarra Yarra
J Phillips, Mullengandra (note this is for "J" and not for "T")
J Burke, Mullengandra
R Burke, Doodle Cooma
Cheers, JM
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majm -- *I'm hitting my head with a fist* .. duh! Of course, tht might be why Alfred's birth is hard to find. I have heard that he was born in Lambing Flat (Young) ... Wow! What a lot of help you lovely fol have given. Have sent for Probate packets for all 3. Trisha
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Hi everyone who has helped me on this , and thanks for all your thoughts, which have been noted.
Transcript of Margaret's Death Certificate has arrived, but Probate Packets not yet. Name of Margaret is given as Maragaret Hunt, widow, female, age 88 and death 26 Oct 1906, all of which tallies with what I have been told. (1906-88 years makes her born roughly 1818.)
No previous names given, no previous children given, father's name and occupation and mothers also not given. Alfred, aged 42, is listed as the only child of the marriage, living or dead. SHe is said to have married Charles at Young, in the transcript and her age is given at marriage as 43 years, which tallies with a marriage date of 1861, which in fact is apparently written on the certificate and then crossed out.
She is supposed to have been born in county Limerick, Ireland, and to have spent 70 years in the colony, which tallies with arrival at age 18 in 1836-ish. Governor Bourke resigned on 30 January 1837 which means that IF Margaret did come out to be a companion to his daughter Elizabeth she was faced soon after with the choice of staying here or returning pdq to Ireland. Hmmm. Would she have stayed here without family? Possibly, if she had a husband or other means of support.
More digging required.
Have noted other research suggestions, and will be reporting back - thanks again .. Trisha in beautiful sunny Port Augusta South Australia
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Hi Trish,
I also have an interest in the area you have been investigating and was wondering if the probate packs revealed anything?
Cheers
Patrick
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Sooo... if she was born about 1818, and came to NSW as a teenager while her "uncle" was Governor ( he was Governor until 1837 ? ), and he went back to Ireland, when she was about 19, then if she was going to stay .... she would have been married off to someone fairly quickly in those days. She would not have been hanging around single for another ten years or more.
Perhaps you should look at Bourke and Wills too.
Well here is something a bit interesting: from the online "australian dictionary of biography", which has quite a long entry about Richard Bourke:
"Bourke's eldest son, John, was an invalid. His younger son, Richard (1812-1904), came to New South Wales as private secretary to his father from 1831 to 1834; he returned to England to study law, was called to the Bar and practised as a barrister in Dublin. He became an assistant commissioner for the Poor Law in Ireland in 1847 and was deputy-lieutenant for Limerick. Bourke's eldest daughter, Mary Jane, married Dudley Perceval, clerk of the council at the Cape of Good Hope and later an official in the British Treasury. His second daughter, Anne (1806-1884), married Edward Deas Thomson; his youngest daughter, Frances, married Rev. John Jebb."
Now unlike most Governors, who went back to Britain and promptly died, Bourke lived in Ireland for almost 20 years after he left Sydney.
Now Edward Deas Thomson was a bigshot in the NSW Government for many many years - decades. Long after Bourke had left.
So whether your Margaret came out in the 1830's, or quite a lot later, she would have had very well placed family connections in Sydney - her cousin Anne and Anne's husband Edward Deas Thomson.