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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: hiraeth on Saturday 09 July 11 12:39 BST (UK)
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John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog. I understand that the term alias was sometimes used in the case of illegitimacy. My question is would the sons have taken the name Wynne or Salisbury? The will refers two sons as Robert Wynne & Richard Wynne but a third son Hugh and all the daughters do not have the Wynne mentioned in the will. One of the witnesses was a Humffrey Salesbury but I do not know where he ties in.
Regarding Meyarth I see that there was a village by that name but also there is a Grade II listed building Meyarth Hall. I think that John Wynne als Salisbury probably lived at the hall. Sadly it is uphill from the google street view so no clear view of the building itself :'( Does anyone else get goosebumps from looking on street view at farmland and thinking my ancestors saw the same sight 300 plus years ago? Would it be very cheeky of me to contact the current residents to ask for a picture? :P
Heather
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I can't help on the history side but if I'm right an image search in Google for Meiarth Hall,the current spelling,might reveal it under a property sale at rightmove.co.uk with full views.
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Hi despair
Thank you ;D
H
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John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog. I understand that the term alias was sometimes used in the case of illegitimacy. My question is would the sons have taken the name Wynne or Salisbury?
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Hi Heather,
I think that sometimes is the operative word. I would say that it also often came into use when trying to achieve maximum clarity about who was meant during the long years of name-instability, during which patronymics gradually gave way to surnames and the same man often experimented with (or had foisted upon him) several different styles in the course of his own lifetime.
In the case of the Meiarth family, it was in this John Wynne's generation that they finally "went native" and dropped the name Salusbury/Salesbury; but I have never seen it suggested that there was any illegitimacy involved. Robert was the heir, and from his time on they were known as the Wynnes of Meiarth (or Meyarth). Not aware of Robert's brothers having had children, so cannot say whether their issue (if any) also stuck with "Wynne".
My guess would be that the Humphrey you mention was the testator's nephew, son of his brother Thomas. Thomas and John seem to have had their father Robert's land partitioned between them. Per NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.727, Thomas was the elder and he retained the surname Salusbury. His son Humphrey's issue seem to have died out in the male line soon afterwards. Thomas's will is here (http://hdl.handle.net/10107/46413) (proved St Asaph 5 Mar. 1683/4).
Rol
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So if John Wynne als Salisbury was born a Salisbury then I wonder how he was related to his wife Alice ???
Heather
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Mmm. An enduring puzzle. I think John's side of the family is hooked into the Salusbury pedigrees reasonably satisfactorily via documentary sources and NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.727. Ales's side -- i.e. the descent of her father Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog (d.1661) -- is the source of the mystery.
For everyone's convenience:
[Link] (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258222726)
Hi Listers
I'm trying to learn more about Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog.
I've found his 1661 will on the NLW site and he mentions a daughter Alice who is married to a John Wynne Salisbury. …
plus
[Link] (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258520244)
… I wish that I could tell you where Hugh of Clocaenog fits in, but I failed to unearth any satisfactory evidence about that question when I last looked at it (years ago now). The best compendium of the junior lines of the clan is to be found in NLW Wynnstay MSS 143-4; but it does not seem to provide a clear match for this particular man. I once looked at several local deed schedules without success, but my guess back then was that either deeds or litigation records could offer the best hope of making a sound link up -- even if Hugh himself was only a tenant of his richer (presumed) cousins.
The Charles mentioned as landlord in the 1661 will was doubtless the son of the Colonel William who held Denbigh Castle for King Charles. Charles Salesbury's daughter Jane became the sole heiress who took the Bachymbyd estate (including its land in Clocaenog) into the hands of the Bagot family -- despite her "wicked uncle" Owen Salesbury of Rûg trying to prevent that outcome through a chancery suit (in which attempt he barely escaped criminal prosecution for forging a deed). ...
-- and elsewhere in that post I also referred to work apparently undertaken on the same subject by Berwyn Kerfoot and Lavinia Phillips.
Over in the RootsChat Anne Salesbury Powell thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,422970.0.html), Paul Salisbury mentioned one of the few clues about Hugh's paternity to be found in the 1661 will:
I believe that on Hugh's will it mentions a brother, William ap John.
So it's possibly that John Salesbury was Hugh's father.
Of course, the risk with references to brothers or sisters in wills of that vintage is that the writer could quite easily have meant brother or sister in law; so one quite understands Paul's cautious use of the word "possibly".
In the context of this from the end of my above-cited RootsWeb post
Do post the news if you know or discover whether either of the two people mentioned above has pushed further back -- or you crack the problem yourself!
I was interested to see that you began your opening post in this current thread with the words "John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog."
I would be very interested to know whether -- since that RootsWeb discussion of November 2009 -- you have uncovered any new information on the matter (perhaps thanks to Berwyn K or Lavinia P?) sufficient to make you more confident about Hugh Salesbury's father being a John Salesbury. Do tell! :)
It would be a great thing to succeed in tying Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog into his proper place in the overall clan.
Rol
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Hi Rol
Sorry I missed your last post and have only just discovered it :) We are renovating this weekend hence I'm too distracted to get out all my references. Plus my OH doesn't like my Salesburies ;D I'll post again shortly.
Heather
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... We are renovating this weekend ...
Ah, yes -- something I should certainly be doing too . . . and certainly won't be. ;)
I'm too distracted to get out all my references. Plus my OH doesn't like my Salesburies ;D …
;D . . . the bad news.
Plus the good news:
… I'll post again shortly.
So I now have the necessary excuse to defer (again) putting all my Salesbury references back into the toy cupboard. ;)
Rol
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So I now have the necessary excuse to defer (again) putting all my Salesbury references back into the toy cupboard. ;)
Rol
Hi Rol
After looking in my toy cupboard again, I think you can safely put the Salesburys back in your toy cupboard. As you say "brother" William ap John could have been a half brother or brother in law. Sorry if I raised false hopes regarding Hugh (d1661).
Despite BK's help on the Powell side at Gyffilliog where PRs go back to 1617, the brick walls are as strong as ever :-\
H
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... As you say "brother" William ap John could have been a half brother or brother in law. Sorry if I raised false hopes regarding Hugh (d1661). ... the brick walls are as strong as ever :-\
:'( Oh well . . . did rather expect that would be the answer, though hope springs eternal. Somewhere there simply must be a revealing deed or will mention, or a chancery suit! :)
Just tried fishing for (Salisbury OR Salsbury OR Salusbury OR Salesbury OR Salbri) /10/ (Clocaenog OR Cyffylliog OR Gyffylliog) in the ISYS:web pond, but the net still comes up pretty empty.
Rol
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I have been doing some research into the Bryneglwys area recently which is close to your recent subject and noticed a few "Salsbury" references(burials) in the PRs in the late 1600s/early 1700s,including a couple of Hughs.Are you aware of these?Are they likely to be of relevance?
Modification:
I've now had a chance to trawl through the registers(1662-1812)(copyright Clwyd Family History Society)and this is what I can find in case it is of interest:-
Marriages-none
Baptisms
June18 1680 Margaret Peter Salisbury and Jane
July3 1681 Catherine Hugh Salisbury (not listed)
Burials
Jan17 1673 Richard Salsbury
July 7 1679 Hugh son of Pirce Salsbury
Feb12 1684 Pierce Salsbury
Jan31 1706 Thomas Prichard Salsbury
May 30 1732 Jane w/o Hugh Salysbury
June19 1733 Hugh Salysbury
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Hello Roger -- and thanks for posting those Salusbury/Salesbury extracts from Bryneglwys PR. It is good to have them available for reference online.
I cannot immediately place them, but I doubt that they were from the Meyarth branch, or their cousins who for a couple of generations owned Pont y Go(e) in Llanelidan (later known as [Plas] Nantclwyd).*
So who might they have been? Maybe connected to the mystery Hugh of Clocaenog (will 1661 -- see the Anne Salesbury thread). But here is another possibility.
Although most of the Salesburys who settled around the top end of the Vale of Clwyd (Clocaenog, Gyffylliog, Llanfwrog, Llanelidan, Gwyddelwern, etc.) seem to have been younger sons deriving from the Bachymbyd/Rug line -- whence the source of their land and the "e" usually preferrred as the second vowel in their surnames -- there was also a smaller group in the same area who descended from the branch of the family based at Plas Isa, Llanrwst. Robert of Plas Isa acquired some land in or about Llanelidan from the Bishop of Bangor in 1492, and then in 1522 settled some or all of it on a younger son of his called Hugh (who came to live there -- and was still alive in 1570 but dead by 1582).
Deeds relating to this Llanelidan branch are mixed in with the NLW Crosse of Shaw Hill collection. (For those interested, the whole schedule is available here (http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysnative/QzpcSVNZUzZcQVJDSElGQVVcQ3Jvc3NlLmRvYw==/Crosse.doc ) from the NLW's ISYS site as a lightweight word.doc download -- only about 630 KB.) In the Welsh pedigrees they are to be found on Salesbury sheet 7 in Peter Bartrum's WG2 compendium. Bartrum follows p.84 of Gruffydd Hiraethog's NLW Peniarth MS 176 in showing Hugh's younger sons as Thomas, Robert and Roger -- with Roger probably a clergyman. NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.731 omits that Roger, but shows a Roger as a son of Thomas's.
The document schedule does indeed include several refs. to a Revd. Roger from 1582. But then it also goes on to lend a hand to the Wynnstay 144 version of the pedigree (making one suspect the existence of two Rogers) -- in No. 640, a bond dated 14 Jan. 1599/1600, one of the parties is named as
Roger ap Thomas ap Hughe Salesbury of Talybidwal, hundred of Yale, co. Denbigh gent.
(A little warning if doing a word search in the schedule as presently offered for download -- like most of the schedules accessible via ISYS it has apparently been re-keyed from the printed original, and the copy-typist has inverted two letters and written the place name as Talybiwdal.)
I have no information to show whether the people mentioned in Bryneglwys PR later in the 17th c. were descendants of this Roger Salesbury of Talybidwal -- but the idea might merit further exploration. At the back of my mind there is also a vague recollection that the place may have been the subject of some chancery litigation; but I fear that the ref. would be not be very easily re-discoverable.
Rol
* Wynnstay 144 p.727 incorporates a nice little potted history of Nantclwyd's early owners -- with a date helpfully attached:
Foulk Salesbury [ap Thomas Vychan Salesbury of Llanelidan ap Piers] … Who together with his posterity sold Pont y go to Symon Parry, which Symon dis~herited his eldest son Thomas and made his second son William owner of Pontygoe, whose sole daughter and heir by her father's consent is married to Eubule Thelwall, 2'nd son to John Thelwall of Llanrhaiadd'r and Plascoch, 1652.