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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: nthnyds on Saturday 09 July 11 09:21 BST (UK)
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I am not sure if my questions are within the "Roots Chat" remit, but here goes. ???
I am not trying to FIND a person. Rather I am trying to find out WHO - or WHAT they were.
From previous posts we know that Christina PHIPPS (mother MARY) was born at CLENT in 1828.
When she married Henry GRIFFIN in march 1849 she was CHRISTIANA PHIPS. I know of two of their children, WILLIAM HENRY, born 1849, Clent and Sarah, born 1851, Clent.
As indicated in previous posts CHRISTINA, throughout the period 1849 until the death of her husband Henry in 1891, is continually changing her name in census records. Names she uses are Hannah, Roseanna, Christina, Christiana and so on. Only after Henry died did she revert back to the Christina title.
It was if she was trying to hide - but from whom? From what?
We also know from the census documents, and lack of other evidence, that WILLIAM never married. I do not have the names of Christina's other children (other than Sarah) but I believe there were other siblings, and I would be very interested to find out who they were, and if ANY of the children married.
I do know that "Baggies" in his post "Trying to find a Father" says he is a GGG Grandson of Christina - but was that from an illegitimate birth from another of Christina's children?
I ask this because I am a great grandson of Harriet Pardoe, who lived in "Hartle Lane" Belbroughton, and who had seven illegitimate children, one being my Grandmother Louisa. I also believe, from circumstantial, but very pointed evidence that William GRIFFIN was the father of her seven children. William lived with his mother, very close to where Harriet Pardoe lived with her mother.
Now you have the background, my questions are these.
Why would a woman continually try to hide by changing her name whilst she was married? And why would a man and woman, who love each other enough to have seven children over a 22 year period not marry?
Did ANY of William's siblings marry?
Was the reason for not marrying to do with RELIGION, or ETHNICITY?
Mary PHIPPS had an illegitimate child - Christina - and it appears that Mary never married.
Christina was pregnant with WILLIAM, but did marry Henry GRIFFIN in 1849, but then spent the next 40 years changing her name at every census - trying to hide??
William, Christina's son - had seven illegitimate children - I believe with Harriet PARDOE.
Something, or someone was strong enough to prevent the marriage, but not strong enough to kill their feelings for each other.
I have rambled on, I know.
But - is there anyone who can cast any light on the enigma? :(
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Hello,
Is this your family?
In 1861 there are several children to the couple - you refer to census information - do you not have it though?
RG9; Piece: 2116; Folio: 49; Page: 17
Holy Cross Green Clent
Henry Griffin 33 yrs Journeyman Carpenter b Bromsgrove
Hannah Griffin 32 yrs
William Griffin 12 ys Farmer's Lad
Louisa Griffin 7 yrs
Frederick Griffin 3 yrs
Thomas Griffin 1 ys
rest of family b Clent
heywood
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As you will have noticed in 1861 there is no Sarah.
By 1871 there are these extra children
Falix 8 yrs
Phoebe 4 yrs
John 2 yrs
Edward 9 months
there is no Thomas and mother is now 'Susan'
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1881 is free to view- you can see all the children with newcomer Edwin 10 yrs and granddaughter Myra Taylor 1 yr born Manchester
Mum is now Roshannah
1891 RG12; Piece: 2346; Folio 103; Page 12
Henry and Hannah are living with 5 adult sons including William
1901 - back to Christiana as you say.
As to her change of name :-\ I suppose Christiana/Hannah/Roshanna and even Susan share the 'anna' bit and they stayed in the same place for many years so that might indicate that there is nothing to hide.
It depends on who gives the information to the enumerator also.
I can see a baptism for Christiana but can't see her in 1841- do you have her?
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Hi Heywood,
Thank you for your very quick reply.
I live overseas so I personally don't have the census information, but have collected the information from previous posts, from myself and other people.
Thank you for the details of the other children of Christina and Henry. You have confirmed two points: One is that it would appear that the other sons did not marry either - and I find that very unusual. ???
The second being the strange name changes of Christina.
I take your point that they did stay in the same place for a very long time, giving the indication that there was nothing to "hide" but that does not explain the eccentricity, neither does it explain why the children did not marry - even when it would appear that William fathered seven children with the same woman - Harriet Pardoe.
My reason for putting together this posting is that it is extremely unusual for six sons, all of marriageable ages NOT to have married, and I am searching for the reason - although my particular interest is in William.
By the way - how do I access the 1881 census document?
As to my family - my direct ancestor in this story is Harriet Pardoe. I am a grandson of her daughter Louisa, but have been searching for Louisa's father for over two years, without success until recently, when we managed to put together some very strong circumstantial evidence that pointed to William Griffin.
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Hi,
this should do it
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0e70/
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Thank you Heywood.
That fills out quite a bit of the family information I was missing.
The grand daughter?
I am assuming that she took the father's name.
I also assume that as Louisa is the only Griffin child missing (of child bearing age), that she could be the mother.
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Not too sure about that.
I had assumed that Sarah had died by 1861 but didn't look her up.
However, I then did look for a Sarah Taylor born Clent and found one in 1881 (married and a servant).
Have now just found:
1861 RG9; Piece: 2021; Folio: 112; Page: 29
Halesowen Street Oldbury
Oliver Johnson head 32 yrs Fruiterer b Oldbury
Sarah Johnson wife 29 yrs b Oldswinford
Myra Griffin visitor unmarried 21 yrs b Wombourne
Sarah Griffin servant 11 yrs Domestic servant b Clent
Thomas Parkes servant 18 yrs Fruiterer b Oldbury
Now who is Myra Griffin? I can't find her in 1841 and 1851?
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There is one at:
1841 HO107; Piece 1203; Book: 6;Folio: 6; Page: 5
parents Thomas and Mary, siblings including baby Felix. So Thomas may well be a brother to Henry. There is a Sarah too and also a marriage Free BMd- Sarah Elizabeth Griffin to Oliver Foley Johnson so all may be well.
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This is where it starts to get confusing.
Without reference to parents we really have no idea who the Sarah Griffin - domestic servant aged 11 in Oldbury is.
Find it strange that if she is the daughter of Henry and Christina that she would be working - far from home - at the age of 11 when her siblings, John, Edward (Edwin) and Phoebe are still at school, aged 13, 10 and 14 respectively?
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Mmm- I agree.
However, she was with the Johnsons who were possible relatives and they had been married since 1853 and apparently no children.
I wonder,even though she was a servant, whether that had any bearing on it.
There may be other Sarahs in the extended family.
Your Sarah is the only one in 1851 census but there is a Sarah Jane in births in addition to a Sarah and there is a death for a Sarah.
On the other hand, there is a Myra link.
There is a marriage on Family Search 1876, Hulme,Manchester Sarah Griffin (father Henry) and William Taylor.
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Just found more details on Lancs OPC
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
6 Jun 1876 St Michael, Hulme, Lancashire, England.
William Taylor, 24yrs a Joiner, bachelor46 Juniper St.
Father, George Taylor, Tailor
Sarah Griffin 24 yrs Spinster 46 Juniper St.
Father: Henry Griffin, Joiner
Witnesses: George Taylor; Louisa Griffin
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1871 RG10; Piece: 2974; Folio: 88; Page: 3
15 Halesowen Street Oldbury
Oliver Johnson head 43 yrs Green Grocer
Sarah Elizabeth wife 39 yrs
Mary Ann Johnson daur 9 yrs
Phebe Johnson daur 7 yrs
Myra Johnson daur 4 yrs
Louisa Griffin servant 17 yrs General Servant b Clent
Thomas Griffin servant 11 yrs General servant b Clent
I realise we are wandering away from your initial query to which there perhaps there isn't a real answer :-\
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:(
I believe you are right,Heywood, when you say we will probably never know. I guess I was being a little naive, but hopeful that maybe someone else descended from Christiana and Henry had asked the same questions, and had found an answer.
Or anyone else for that matter who had a similar problem within their families at that time, and had some experience of what the problem may have been.
I do believe your last two posts have identified the marriage of Sarah Griffin to William Taylor, and the workplace of the young Louisa and Thomas. It would seem from the information you have posted that Sarah Elizabeth Johnson (nee Griffin) could indeed be a relative, and is helping out her "family" with work for the two young ones, as it would appear she did with Sarah before.
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Regarding Sarah's marriage to William Taylor. Hulme is in fact in SOUTH MANCHESTER. This would tie up with the registration/birth of Myra Taylor in Chorlton.
Chorlton was a district of South Manchester up to 1925 before it was fully incorporated into South Manchester.
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Yes it does all fit and glad you can see that. We are on the outskirts of Manchester so it is familiar territory.
It is difficult to look back when we are doing it from our modern view.
Best wishes
Heywood