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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: valnan on Thursday 07 July 11 17:45 BST (UK)
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Would really love to hear from anyone who can give indication as to the date of these.........ok, have got the last two.......i.e. 99, but is that likely to be 1799 or 1899?
Read wykie, confused all the more.........need to find start date for use of these types of plate....and then, with luck, how do I print in reverse one of these?
I would like to find at least one, of the 19 male and 2 female prisoner records on these glass plates.
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I just simply flipped them from negative to positive.
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Ooooh wow, thank you. :)
Failed to mention I only have printer, no scanner. Took photos with light behind.
Guess your reference is for scanner.
Wonder who she was, what she did?
Regrds from a very Happy Val
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Now I can see more clearly, that is not a cheap coat....style looks late 1800s?.hand sewn button loops, fine fabric, seems to be brocaide?
Now I think I should go to Prison Forum, really want to find out more about her.
Some of the men seen to have arrows on their jackets....One has large star like badge on right sleeve.
Curiouser and curiouser
Val
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How do you know that they are prisoners, or are you just guessing?
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Looks like the date is 21-6-97. As photography wasn't invented until the 1830s that would be 1897, and the woman's shoulder seams are typical of the 1890s but a little out of date for that year.
Cheers,
China
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Thank you for that, I have thoughts that the date is the date of imprisonment, as with some of the others I have, as the date is duplicated.
Gues Sarah Jones could be in her 60s ? whatr your thoughts please.
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More prisoners .
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An another....really must get scanner....LOL
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These are fascinating. How did they come into your possession valnan? And, what country are they from? Charles tertiius Green _ great name!
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I've flipped these for you !
The second one shows a shadow you and your camera lens !
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Births Dec 1867
GREEN Charles Tertius Leicester 7a 195
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Adam Klein, a baker, born Germany c.1858, was sentenced to 4 yrs penal servitude for wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm at the Old Bailey on 8 May 1899.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18990508-362&div=t18990508-362&terms=adam|klein#highlight
He's in Parkhurst in 1901.
Charles Tertius Green, born Leicester Q4 1867, son of William and Sarah M, was a solicitor. In 1891 he's living with his parents (recorded as Charles P), but in 1901 he's a convict inmate at Portland Convict Establishment, Dorset.
Adrian
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THANK YOU ALL........to the last posts.
Printer, now red hot saving all of this info.
I got them 35+ years ago, been sitting in box, passed on to me from relative.
Can anyone tell me, please....do I wipe them over with soft damp cloth to tidy them up? Lots of spots etc as you can see....or best to leave as they are.
Old Bailey records? maybe I will be lucky enough to find the others there...How do I start?
Noticed on sleeve of Klein a star ?? is that significant ?
val
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Jewish, maybe ??
BEFORE you do anything to the slides, send Prue (the mod) a PM to ask her how to clean them. She an expert ...
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spots gone :D
Irene
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... but NOT on the original slides ! :(
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adam Klein
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-362-18990508&div=t18990508-362#highlight
Irene
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... but NOT on the original slides ! :(
I am very aware of that Lydart I was just showing how you can "clean" them without touching and damaging the originals
Irene
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Yes I know ... :) ... but I'm not sure if Val has a photoshop type programme, or indeed a scanner.
She asked about cleaning the original slides I think ... and we all know the damage its possible to do to old photographs and slides ! (Been there, done that :o )
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Jewish, maybe ??
It does look very likely to be a six pointed star.
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Are you trying to find descendants of these prisioners Val? I bet they'd love a photo of their ancestor if we can locate any of them for you.
I'd like to see all 21 negatives. Do you know where they came from originally? I think that prints of these would be a valuable addition to an archive or history centre. Maybe even oldbaileyonline if they post images of prisoners. I agree with the others - do not touch them until you get advice from Prue.
If the negs all have names I'm sure some sleuthing will uncover some more information for you.
[Great 'flipping' Lydart. :)]
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Would Jewish prisoners in 1899 have been marked with the Star of David ? Surely not !!
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The other chap has one as well.
They'd been inside a while when these were taken so possibly trustees.
jim
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The other chap has one as well.
They'd been inside a while when these were taken so possibly trustees.
He'd only been sentenced to 4yrs - wouldn't trustee status be more likely to be given to those doing a 'long haul' - besides, they look like 'mug shots' - taken when incarcerated?
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From The Times 16 Jan 1900 Charles Tertius Green of Leicester was was convicted by his own confession of "fraudulent conversion of sums amounting to £775" and sentenced to 5 years penal servitude. He was also struck off (in a long list of other solicitors who were also struck off) from the Incorporated Law Society's roll of solicitors.
Carole
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Sorry for the delay in saying....Thank you all, again.
Wonderful improvement and no, I do not have a scanner, so really appreciate seeing what you hace done with them.
I am only able to photograph, over light behind white paper....not the best but the only way I could think of getting result.
I have now compiled a list of each of the 21 and would love to offer copies to their family. Should I place this list under surnames? How should this be worded?
Val
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Carole, my photoslide shows 31.7.99.....so, was he being held on remand when this was taken?....or your report of Jan 1900 is another offence.....making him a regular visitor to H.M.P
Just a thought
Val
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I couldn't find a report of his trial but I guess he was struck off in January 1900 when the Law Society became aware of his conviction.
Carole
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I have now compiled a list of each of the 21 and would love to offer copies to their family. Should I place this list under surnames? How should this be worded?
Val
I'm not sure what to suggest regarding this. Maybe one of the moderators can advise.
I'm not sure if there should be a seperate post for each person, maybe with their name in the subject line? This will pick up anyone googling the name.
Or maybe just continue here and post the other images, maybe in groups of two or three?
What would work to get the best results? Opinions anyone? :)
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After your great success, have followed the route to Old Bailey and found another......This is more fun than my own tiresome..... Hall family research.
Have decided to list in surnames. Hoping the flood gates dont open too quickly, really not pc literate, but sure I will manage. Enlisting the use of friends scanner to get me up and running.
If you have a section...this must be 'Success Story'
Bringing skeletons to life? (well, at least a photo)
Val
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Can anyone there please let me know, how to 'flip' the plates. Am at friends home they have Cannon 8800F scanner, tried the smple things....watched the onlne suggestons...not happening?
Would love to crack this one....
val
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Have you got PhotoShop ? Or Paint Shop Pro, which is an oldie but I use it.
If so, you need to go to 'Image' and click 'negative' ... I know the slides you have are negatives anyway, but if you click it, they become positives ! Easy peasy !
Someone may be able to suggest a freebie programme that is similar for you to use.
How many are there ? You can send them to me, attached to email(s) and I'll 'flip' for you ! I'll PM you my email ...
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On the search for it as our mail crossed. Am using vista, de remember it being on daughters computer, but she in Australia. Not giving up....
val
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I avoided Vista like the plague ... so don't know if it comes with a photo programme ...
Someone will know ... or try the tech board ?
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This is one BIG success story.....only been gained with all the kind help from your members..
The one story.......Adam Klein (31 years) born Germany ....accused of attempting to kill Frederick Karl....... Sentenced at the Old Bailey 8th May 1899 found Guilty of wounding with intent to do grevious bodily harm ~ 4 Years' Penal Servitude ~ Shown on the Index List for Parkhurst Prison, census 1901.
Amazing what you can learn from a small piece of glass that might easily have been broken and put in the bin.
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That is fabulous Val. ;D
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Thanks Ruskie on with next .....only 20 to go, 7 located in prisons, 9 sets court records.
What fun.
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Hello fellow hunters,
Still 'a work in progress', but feel there may be someone out there who is looking for their 'black sheep'
Working my way through court records and prison lists, so I might have a litttle more to add for you.
Val
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I have a suggestion. ;)
After you work your way through the list, post the image together with details of what you have found out about the prisoner. (just coz we're curious)
Any you are stuck with, also post their image and someone may be able to help you find something about him.
If you post the details here, then anyone who is researching these names in the future, should come across this post.
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Val sent me this via PM, but I think it would be better here where everyone can get involved:
All of my slides were passed to me as one collection...21 of them......So far 7 found records in Old Bailey Online, not yet completed the entire search........then my attention was transfered to where they served their time......resulting in my finding they were at 5 different prison locations. Pentonville, Parkhurst, Portland, Canterbury and Dartmoor, still more to research.
My inexperience is a hinderence here,..... but how or why were the plates all together?
Looking for the common link.
1) Old Bailey ?
2) Prison location ?
1) No, the dates for hearing at the Old Bailey courts do not tally with start of sentence date shown on plates....So other courts must have been the place of trial.
2) No, as shown....not all the same.
As we are led to believe that transportation ceased in the mid 80s........not likely to be the answer?
Guess the option open to me....find the death of one of them....maybe two, (with help) then I might be getting closer.
Asking: If this was your project, what and how would you consider the best way to getting a result?
I'm sorry Val. I just realised (after sending you a PM) that you have posted some of your other photographs. I missed these posts and will go back and look at them.
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Here is the list so far, have further to add to many, but struggling to get on site, so first batch here.
Name Prison Born ( as indexed 1901 census)
Andrews Joseph. Dartmoor Labourer London
Dean George. ... ...
Desmond Charles ... ...
Dodd Herbert Pentonville London 1879
Donovan Patrick Portland Ireland 1869
Edwards Henry Portland London? 1877
Green Charles Tertius Portland Solicitor Leicester 1867
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The next,
Harrison Cecil Portland London 1867
Hopkins Robert ... ...
Jones Sarah ... ...
Joseph Bonni ... ...
Klein Adam Parkhurst Germany
Mould John Parkhurst Sussex 1873
Ricketts John Canterbury Cardiff/London 1877
Roberts William Pentonville 1842 Whitchurch Shropshire
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The last of 21.
Sage Francis Canterbury Marylebone 1864
Smith Henry Portland London 1871
Wilson Hannah ... ...
Wilson John Parkhurst unclear from census 1901 which one is him.
Windward Charles Parkhurst Whitechapel London 1878
Young Arthur Portlnd London 1876
I apologise if there are any details that you find are incorrect. I have followed the only way I know how....I have glass photo, giving date of imprisonment.....Used Court records to estimte birth date. Then followed the route to the Prisons lists, which have been compiled from 1901 census.
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Excellent, that list will be very helpful - thanks Val. ;)
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The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post
May 22, 1899.
HIGHWAY ROBBERY
At the Thames police court, London, on Saturday, Henry Edwards, 18 and Charles Windward otherwise Wells, 19, were charged with being concerned with others not in custody in assaulting Dr Thomas Phillips of 592 Commercial Road. prosecutor who appeared to be in a weak state and had to be accomodated with a chair deposed that he was a member of the Ratcliff Vestry and Limehouse District Board. About half past one on Thursday when within a short distance of his own door Edwards came up and looked under his coat to see if he had a watch. Witness asked him what he meant and immediately after he was surrounded by five or six men who struck him and knocked him to the ground. He was then jumped upon and became unconscious. His left side was seriously injured and he was robbbed of his gold watch, chain and pocketbook. On coming to he found himself being attended to by some neighbours. Richard Battle deposed that he worked in York Road, Stepney and while having his dinner heard a scuffle and then a cry of 'Help.' He saw both the prisoners and other men around Dr. Phillips. Windward had his knees on the prosecutor and was searching his pocket. He saw the watch in one of the men's hands but could not say what became of it. When the prisoners ran away he followed and gave information to the police. Witness pursued Windward who threatened to shoot him. Windward denied having anything to do with the afffair and said that while looking at the fight he was taken into custody. Remanded.
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thanks petewhitehouse....
Following the lead, have obtained the court transcript from The Old Bailey online....they were repeat offenders. Edwards received Five years Penal servitude and Twelve lashes.
Windward, along with Henry Smith and Charles Desmond were given Five years Penal Servitude each.
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The odd thing is that all the photographs have come from different prisons - I wonder how they all came to end up together?
Carole
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The odd thing is that all the photographs have come from different prisons - I wonder how they all came to end up together?
Carole
This is what Val is wondering. Maybe just a collector who amassed these unusual things over the years. I alos wondered it there may have been some kind of govt department clearout ... and they were dumped in a skip. :-\
Val, where did you get this collection from?
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Hello and thanks for your interest. Yes I am wondering why all the plates ended up in the same place. Left me by relative, the idea of clear out by department seems to be the closest I will ever get to learning their origin.
Have gone down the 'not nice to think about'... common factor...hanged? ...transported? If only I could find the death of one or even two of them. maybe, just hoping I will be one step closer.
Val
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The only common factor that I can think of is that they might have been part of centralized records kept either by the police or some other government department and at some point when they were having a clear out they kept the paperwork but threw out the the glass negatives. There's nothing else to link them all - different places, different crimes but only a few years separating them in date.
Carole
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Hi Carole,
Yes, Im having to accept that fact, just hope that along the way and with the list shown, someone will one day, find this information to add to their family history.
That would be a fairly good result. Thanks everyone for all your input. :)
Regards Val
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Can anyone there please let me know, how to 'flip' the plates. Am at friends home they have Cannon 8800F scanner, tried the smple things....watched the onlne suggestons...not happening?
The Canon 8800F is a fine scanner - but its film adaptor only handles a 6x22cm. Some glass negs will be bigger than 6x6cm...
If your negs fit within the film adaptors area then set the scanner to scan 'film' and 'negative' and you will get a nice positive image.
If the negs are bigger than 6cm in both dimensions you will have to use reflective scanning - which is not ideal but should, nevertheless, provide some decent scans. The Canon comes with Adobe Photoshop Elements software which will convert from negative to positive. If you want a simpler, free, program for the job then Irfanview is a free download and very easy to use.
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Thank you newburychap. Luckily these are small plates, so on that would do the trick...Val
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Hi All researchers and owner of glass plate negatives. Thats the best 1/2 hour of reading I have had since I used to listen to Dick Barton Special Agent on the BBC in the late 40's. I breathed a sigh of relief, when I read all the surnames as none of my rellies were there. Actually did have one in the jug in 1901. Carry on the good work and hope you do have a lot of success with finding some of their todays relations. Best regards Ken B
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Fascinating collection!
Charles Tertius Green looks to have died 3/7/1916 and is recorded at Thiepval (10bn Worcestershires)
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Charles Desmond - there is someone who has their tree on Ancestry who has Charles Desmond. Person who has the tree is called ozzy2441, and they also have some info about what happened to him once he left prison and joined the army...........
Charles Desmond bn 1877 in Mile End to Charles Desmond and Jane Newman.
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Francis Sage
Seems to have made a bit of a habit of appearing in court! Appears at the Old Bailey 29th May 1899 for feloniously shooting at Albert Handley. 7 other convictions were also proved agains Francis, and he was sentenced to 3 years penal servitude.
Didn't learn lesson, and was back before the Old Bailey in 1909 was having counterfeit coins. The court documents lists all his previous ...... ahem.......misedemeanors (22nd June 1909)
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Births Dec 1867
GREEN Charles Tertius Leicester 7a 195
I wonder if this is the same Charles Tertius Green that was killed 3 July 1916 at Flanders? Perhaps he redeemed himself.
Philip
Oops....... I didn't see spidermonkeys post. Never mind.
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Thank you, kerothwell, spidermonkey,phodgetts and apologies for delay in reply.
Have just returned to home, so now to seek out ozzy, to see if he would enjoy copy of the plate.
This has been so much fun, finding the rightful family, still hoping to find more.
Regards Val
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Appears at the Old Bailey 29th May 1899 for feloniously shooting at Albert Handley.
It's a bit more exciting than that!
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Western Mail , Cardiff. 15th May 1899.
A DESPERATE FIGHT
Francis Sage, 35, giving an address in Ramsay-street, Bethnal Green and Charles Stewart, 19, coster, of Dorset-street, Spitalfields, were charged at Worship-street Police-court on Friday with being concerned with assaulting Detectives Handley and Tobutt, rescuing a prisoner from lawful custody, and Sage, further, with feloniously shooting at the officer Handley with the intent to kill and murder him. The story told by the officers aroused considerable interest, it appearing that they had arrested a man for being concerned in the recent attempt to rob a clerk named Titterton of a bag containing £150 at Stratford, when they were set upon, and the man rescued.
The detective, Handley, deposed that shortly after six o'clock on Thursday evening he, accompanied by Detective-sergeant Tobutt, went to a house in Octagon-street, Bethnal Green, and there arrested a man wanted for felony. On the way to the station, the prisoners and two other men came up, Sage saying to the man in custody, "What's the matter, Bill?" The answer was, "Some ---- had shopped me for that job at Stratford, and these two splits are going to take me to the nick." Sage said, "My oath, they're not. Open order, lads, Stick to me." He then caught hold of the man in custody, who wrested himself away from witness, and the same moment witness received a blow in the back from a heavy stick, (produced) dealt by the prisoner Stewart. He also received a blow in the face, and then drew his truncheon. It was, however, wrenched away from him. The man rescued ran off, and witness pursued, but the prisoner Sage ran close in front of him and, turning, presented a revolver at him, saying, "Stand back, or I'll put one through you." Witness, however, continued to run on, and Sage, turning again, fired, at the same time saying, "Take that, you ----." Witness heard the shot whizz by his head.
Mr Cluer: Did he aim at you?
Witness: Yes, pointed the revolver direct at me. Witness ran into a boot shop and seized an iron last as a weapon, then continued the chase through Coventry-street. Seeing that the rescued man had the stolen truncheon in his hand, witness threw the iron last at him, caught him in the back, and brought him to the ground. The man, however, was quickly up and off again, but left the truncheon on the ground, witness recovering it. Then he blew his whistle and saw two or three persons attempt to stop the men, but Sage always presented the revolver and scared them off. At the bottom of Caulfield-street two constables in uniform appeared, and Stewart, who throughout had kept up close with the other men in the flight, was captured, and Sage was knocked down by a blow from the truncheon of Police-constable 105J. (The prisoner Sage appeared in the dock with his head bandaged.) Witness was quickly upon him, and wrenched the revolver (produced) from his right hand, although the prisoner again presented it and said he would put one through him. At the station Sage repeatedly uttered threats of what he would do when he got out.
On being asked if he wished to put any questions to Handley, the prisoner Sage displayed considerable temper, and said he could have shot all the police if he had liked, but he asserted that he had fired in the air.
Superintendent Weston, J Division who was present on behalf of the police, said the revolver jammed, one of the pins catching.
Mr Cluer directed that it should be examined by a gunsmith.
The prisoner called the detective a liar and scoundrel, and was threatened with the cells until he got cool.
Corroborative evidence was given by Detective Tobutt who said he was set upon and beaten with sticks by the other men, but he saw Sage fire at Handley, and continued the pursuit till the arrest.
Inspector Wallace, J. Division, said that when he examined the revolver at the station he found five loaded cartridges in it, and one which had been recently discharged. It was his opinion that the weapon jammed.
The prisoners, who were both in an angry mood, were remanded.
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That's about the first seventh of the article. If I can be bothered later I'll add more*. It's an amusing one, "The prisoner called the detective a liar and a scoundrel and was threatened with the cells until he got cool". ;D
*Done.
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Exciting, can you give me the link please.....thank you.....another 'in the bin' Im doing so well
val :)
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This site: http://infotrac.galegroup.com/itweb/lancs?db=BNCN lets you search Victorian newspapers (good for looking for people with weird names or just for reading about, for example, the Crimean War as it took place).
But you need a login.
Lancashire libraries give you one for free but you need to order a library card from them.
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petewhitehouse99, thanks you have given me a double bonus.
I have a fighting soldier in the Crimean, his family originated from Lancashire, not beeen able to find out much.
So shall be well on the route to him also?
val
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Spidermonkey,
Did some looking for ozzy2441 on Ances....no luck. May be I'm not doing it right. Looked at member directory and public trees. Can I ask for your way of getting to him?
Thanks Val
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From the search page (I use the old search for what it is worth), just under the green writing "search for records about your ancestors" is a family trees link. CLick on that, and when the search page comes up, put in Charles Desmond, bn 1877, parents names Charles Desmond and Jane Desmond. Hope that helps!
Do you want us to have a look for other people on your list?
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Yes please, then I shall be fully informed when and if I have contact from the searchers.
Have achieved court (although minimal in some cases) records for :
Andrews
Desmond
Dodd
Donovan
Harrison
Edwards
Klein
Jones.....Sarah...not sure if I have the right one. Offence Old Bailey....Sept 1857 (28yrs)
Mould
Ricketts
Roberts
Sage
Smith
Wilson...... Hannah
Windward
If anyone would like to find the missing 7 court records would be a happy girl. They do not appear to have been tried at Old Bailey, could be I've just missed them. Val
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So still to go is:
George Dean 31.7.99
Charles Tertius Green 31.7.99
Robert Hopkins 31.7.99
Bonni Joseph 3.8.99
John Wilson 2.8.99
Arthur Young 3.8.99
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I don't know whether these are the right people, but on the 1901 census there is a George T Dean in the prison at Walton on the HIll, whilst in the Test House in Walton on the HIll there is a Robert Hopkins. I'm guessing that the Test House was some sort of workhouse, but I wonder if it could be a kind of clearing house for ex-offenders too...........
Probably jumping to all sorts of conclusions that aren't true!
Test house: RG13; Piece: 3457; Folio: 126; Page: 23
Prison: RG13; Piece: 3457; Folio: 44; Page: 13
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How about I ask in the general forum about this address? In the meantime I will have a good look aaaround. Thanks again
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(Darlington) Northern Echo - 12 May 1899
SOLICITOR IN TROUBLE
At Ashby-de-la-Zouch yesterday, Charles Tertius Green, solicitor, Coalville, Leicestershire, was remanded charged with appropriating to his own use £509, the moneys of a client, and applying to his own use the sum of £275 belonging to the Whitwick Granite Company. Defendant is secretary of the Coalville Conservative Club, and well known locally.
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Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury- 13 May 13 1899.
SERIOUS CHARGE AGAINST A COALVILLE SOLICITOR
At the police office, Ashby-de-la-Zouch, on Thursday, the prisoner, Charles Tertius Green, solicitor, of coalville, was brought before Mr. George Moore, of Appleby, superintendent Holloway explaining that the prisoner had been arrested on two charges - appropriating to his own use the sum of £500, the moneys of a client named Reast, and applying to his own use the sum of £275 15s. 10d., the moneys of Whitwick Granite Company. - After the charges had been read, Supt. Holloway asked for a further remand until Saturday next. - The Magistrate remanded the accused accordingly. - The prisoner, who had nothing to say, was then removed. He looked dejected and ill.
The prisoner was for a considerable time secretary of the Coalville Conservative Club. It was known that warrants were issued for his arrest, and considerable interest in his arrival at Ashby was manifest in Coalville, Ashby, and district, where he was well known.
*****
There's more articles. One of which gives his age at 35 another at 31, names the moneys as belonging to William and George Reast. The thefts took place from September 30 1895 to February 11 1899. The stolen money wasn't spent on himself but "for liabilities for which prisoner became responsible on behalf of his father". He pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to five years of penal servitude because, despite his previously good character, his theft represented a gross betrayal of trust that the public ought to be able to place in the legal profession and a man in his position. Then 15 January 1900 he was "struck off the rolls" by a divisional bench of QCs.
I have a fighting soldier in the Crimean, his family originated from Lancashire, not beeen able to find out much.
So shall be well on the route to him also?
If you can give me a name I can go fishing. But he'd probably have to be quite senior in order to be named in the papers I'd expect.
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Hi All, I am really finding the Glass Plate Negatives completely absorbing.
As I mentioned in my previous email.In the 1901 Census my Maternal Grandad was a guest of the Crown In Walton on the Hill. When his sheet came out on Ancestry UK 1901 England census, it showed a print out for other relatives so I started my printer up and going. My wife called me for my coffee so after about 30 minutes. I had my Coffee and Biscuit a wee read which I always do.Then soon as the head starts to nod back to my M/C. And here are two sheets of relatives, (NO WAY). There all his fellow naughty boys. Over 150 of them. He is listened as of "own account" and a "News Vendor". he was 17 years old. His name is or was Thomas Edward Lunt and you might have seen about him in different web sites as 3rd Engineer on the S.S.Sagamore. Sunk 3rd march 1917.Rescued by the S.S.Deucalion 12th March 1917. He was one of the only 7 survivors landed at Capetown. He and 4 others had to have their feet amputated due to Gangrene and Frostbite as soon as they landed. He ended up his last operation 10th January 1922 after about 8 other ops having his legs amputataed up to within an inch of his knee joint. Any help with the jail would be most appreciated. Best Regards and Good Hunting Ken Berry