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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dazer_man on Sunday 03 July 11 11:21 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have access to Hawkhurst Baptisms in 1869?
I'm looking for Edgar Cogger born Mar 1869 according to BMD.
His mum was Helen Clyde Cogger but his dad James Cogger died July 1867?
Daz
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Can't find an entry on A*****y BDM but LDS has the following:
Edgar Cogger baptised Hawkhurst, Kent on 25 Apr 1869.
Father Clyde Cogger - Mother Helen
James Cogger buried: Hawkshurst 14 Jul 1867.
It might be worth searching the BDM under Helen's maiden name because the maths don't add up here unless a late baptism ?
Steve
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Steve,
I didn't find that LDS record. Thanks for that.
I think it might be a transcription error though as his mum was Helen Clyde Cogger nee Nash.
I suspect it might say son of Helen Clyde Cogger rather than son of Helen and Clyde Cogger.
I'm pretty sure Edgar was born almost two years after James died so I guess the fathers name may have been omitted.
I guess I must at some point go to the CKS and check for myself to be sure.
There is a birth record for Edgar Cogger Mar 1869 in the Cranbrook District (Hawkhurst almost certainly) in the Free BMD but I agree I can't find it in A*****y BMD either.
Daz
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Agreed it's highly likely to be a transcription error most probably caused by the unusual name of Clyde.
I can imagine widow Helen Clyde Cogger taking Edgar along to be baptised alone and the entry being made accordingly (although I'm not sure whether the father should still have been named even if deceased, I think a father has to be present to be named as such?), as the parents names are entered in the same box (eg John AND Mary) I think the transcriber has read Clyde as a male hence father's name, not noticing the entry did NOT say Helen AND Clyde.
I've searched A's births for the period 1860 to 1870 for all births under Edgar (18) or Cogger (13) or Nash (23) in Cranbrook.
Nothing resembling which could be typo error's.
Helen & James wed in 1866 and assuming not a shotgun wedding ?, Edgar would have been born in 1866 to 1868 (allowing for a 9 month period from the year of James' death). The nearest result I could find was a birth for James Cogger in Cranbrook 1968.
This is the point at which the desperate "what if's" start......what if Helen changed her mind about the name between the formal registering of the birth and the Christening ???
Can I confirm you state Edgar's birth date 1869 but you assume you mean Christening?
Steve
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When you say you've searched Ancestry for the birth registration of Edgar COGGER 1869 I'm not quite sure what you mean. The pre 1915 birth registration index on Ancestry is (only) a copy of http://freebmd.rootsweb.com thus always a little behind the actual freebmd index where the registration does appear.
Casalguidi :)
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Steve,
Did you mean you found a birth of a James Cogger in 1868, not 1968 as you typed?
I can't find one in 1868.
I do mean Edgar born birth Q1 - 1869.
References BMD - Q1 1869 Cranbrook and your LDS baptism in Apr 1869 with the correct mother.
James and Helen married on 21 Dec 1866 in Hawkhurst.
James died Q2 1867 (Maidstone district - he was a Policeman in East Malling when he married).
If Edgar was born in Q1 1869, that's a minimum of 15 months after James died.
In the 1871 census (2 April) Helen Clyde Cogger is a widow living with her widowed brother in law Edwin Caffyn (his wife, Helen's sister, Mary Ann died in Jan 1868), his and Mary Ann's son William Nelson Caffyn and Helen's son Edgar Cogger.
On 28 April 1871 this 'family' arrive in Quebec as passengers on the ship 'Pomana' as the Caffyn family.
We can find no record of a marriage between Helen and Edwin between 2 April and 28 April - unless maybe it was on the ship - they were both widow/widower???? Edwin we believe dies within days of arrival (though we haven't seen a proof record yet).
In the 1881 census in Ontario they are living with Henry Fletcher under the name Fletcher even though Helen Clyde Caffyn doesn't marry Henry in Toronto until Nov 1882. In the 1881 census Edgar is 12 (correct) and there is another son Edwin (9). Edwin must have been born 1871/2, so we guess he was born soon after arrival in Canada and was named after his father - maybe that is why the family emigrated as Helen getting pregnant by her dead sister's husband wouldn't have been accepted? We are fairly sure Edgar 'Caffyn' ends up in the USA - yet to be proven. We suspect Edgar b.1869 and Edwin b.1871/2 were both fathered by Edwin Caffyn, but again we don't have definite proof.
Intriguing.
Daz
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Hello Daz,
I don't think I typed 1968 but obviously meant 1868 and yes, there is a birth for a James Cogger Qtr Jul-Sept 1868, perhaps it doesn't help as it shows Cranbrook, Kent, SUSSEX !!! ???
This is going to be a tricky one, we mostly all have examples of these and there could be many scenarios.
As you know, your 1869 Edgar birth could not possibly be the child of James and if Edgar is the son of Edwin then Helen didn't play the grieving Widow for long (if you don't mind me saying ? :-[), it makes you wonder how James died?
Steve
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Steve,
Yes I too would love to know how James died. I may have to order his death cert ;)
Daz
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I don't think I typed 1968......
Steve
Whoops!....just re-read my Post! :-[ ::)
Steve
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James Cogger (bapt. Hawkhurst 25/01/1846) married Helen Clyde Nash 21/12/1866 Hawkhurst, James was the son of Henry Cogger farm baliff, Helen the daughter of James Nash shoemaker.
Mildred Annie bapt. 14/11/1867 Hawkhurst
Edgar bapt. 25/04/1869 though no father listed
Bob Osborne
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Many thanks Bob although I'm sure Daz would be more grateful being his Ancestors.!
I see Helen C Nash appears in the 1861 Census, but under the 1851 as Ellen.
Can't find her birth under either spelling but her father James Nash married Sophia Parks, his father also James being married to Mary Drury.
Steve
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Hi Steve
Is Cogger family a specific interest of yours ?
My link is from Hawkhurst - Joseph and Fanny Cogger - Edward and Sarah Ann Cogger - Albert and Eliza Cogger - Frederick and May Cogger - Ellen Cogger and William Osborne.
Bob Osborne
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Hi Bob,
No, unfortunately I have no interest in the Coggers at all !!!
Hopefully I was just helping out with someone asking for help.
I'm sure the person won't mind me mentioning it as there is Tree on the A* Site made public not private, containing Helen which I found today. Unfortunately it doesn't mention her Spouse or children.
If you have an interest in this family perhaps Daz will be in touch where you could hopefully pool resources ?
Good luck with it !
Steve
PS: I have enough headaches with my own Ancestors ! ;)
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Hi Daz here,
I am certainly very interested in Bob's info, in more ways than one.
It may be that Bob and my wife are very distant cousins.
I see Bob's e-mail address in his signature, so I'll e-mail him right now.
Daz
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Nice one Daz ! ;)
But you do realise another Christmas Card to go on your list ? :(
Steve