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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: alasdair_13 on Friday 01 July 11 15:37 BST (UK)
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Piecing together the Coleman's of Dundee in late 1800s.
Henry Coleman was born in West Midlands and had been married twice already (to unknown spouses) before marrying Annie Nicklin in Birmingham 27/05/1878
At some point they moved to Dundee where Henry became a Brussels carpet weaver and later a licensee or spirit dealer (a bit unclear) They had 5 children: Edward (c.1877); Mabel Maud (c 1881); Lilian (c1884); Harry (c 1887) and Frederick (c 1891 and my direct ancestor).
Henry senior is on the 1891 census for Dundee, but not the 1901, however he died in Dundee in 1907. His wife seemingly went on to marry a James Gordon but I can't find a record of this marriage though it does say they were married on Annie's death cert from 1940 (in irvine).
Something strange going on with his daughter Mabel as well whoe was the informant on Henry;s death cert, but written as Mabel Beaufort of Ashford, Kent. She turns up on 1911 England census as married to Louis Beaufort - he is at least 30 years her senior and a musician. He dies in1923 and Mabel disappears.
Anything on this would be welcome.
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hi alasdair :)
looks like them in 1881
20 alexander st. dundee
henry coleman 42 carpet weaver born england
annie coleman 23 b. england
mabel maud coleman 6m b. dundee
ev
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Did you see in 1901 a Henry Coleman, born England c. 1841 a boarder in St Andrews?
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Also see a 1891 Dundee census for a James Coleman, Brussels Carpet Weaver, b. 1844 in England and on the 1901 census he's back in Kidderminster ... Henry's brother?
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1851 census for Kidderminster has an Isaac Coleman b.1802 with sons Henry and James ... lots to go on looks like
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From the other strand I've posted on - just to share this photo I came across quite by chance being sold on artfact.com and described as one of a series of "cabinet photos by Downey and Tourtin" - Downey appears to have been a pretty high profile photographer in London. Do you reckon this could be my Mabel?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555157.msg4369599.html#msg4369599
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I’ve been away from this forum for a while but have recently returned following some further digging around, and further dead-ends, on my Coleman ancestry so if anyone is able to help me shed any light on any of the issues I’ve uncovered I’d be very grateful indeed.
The basics:
Henry Coleman, was born (probably) in January 1839 (baptised 25 Jan 1839) in Kidderminster. He was the son of Isaac and Mary Coleman. It looks like he married 1st Ann Whitehead 25/10/1862 but she dies 1875. He then possibly marries Frances Wharton 28/08/1876 but she dies a year later in Oct – Dec 1877. All in Kidderminster.
Henry then marries Annie Nicklin 27/05/1878 in Birmingham and appears in the Scottish 1881 census living in Dundee.
At that time their only child registered living with them is Mabel Maud, a daughter born 25/09/1880 in Dundee.
All well and good so far. At the next Scottish census in 1891 they have four other children: Edwen (sic!) who by age indicates he was born in 1877 (definitely not in Scotland). Lillian Elsie (b 1882 Dundee), Harry Ewart (b Dundee 1885).
Annie was also pregnant at the time of the census as my own direct ancestor Frederick James was born 25/07/1891, after the census was taken.
The major problem(s) I have are that none of them seem to turn up on any census thereafter (with the exception of Mabel in 1911 when she is “married” to Louis Beaufort – see earlier thread entries). So where are they all?
Add into this, in 1901 Scottish census, Henry is living alone as a boarder in Dundee with no sign of the rest of his family. I know Annie later went on to “marry” a James Gordon but there’s no marriage record despite this being indicated on her death certificate (27/5/1940 Ayrshire).
My ancestor, Frederick James, later took the name Gordon (he died 18/10/1918 at home in Glasgow from infected gunshot wounds inflicted at the Battle of Cambrai the previous year).
Did she simply elope with James Gordon and take his name, giving his name to her youngest son as well. What happened to her other children? Did they take the name Gordon? Did they leave Scotland/UK?
And as before, I’ve no idea what happened to Mabel after her husband Louis died in 1923 (she is mentioned in the death cert so can pinpoint her to then).
Simply don’t know where to turn to to try to figure all this out.
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An addendum to my last post from October 2012. I have located Henry Coleman's will from August 1904: he leaves his gold watch and chain to his youngest son (and my ancestor) Frederick James - in the will he states "...who is living with his mother at... by Greenock who is living in adultery with a man named James Gordon formerly of Arbroath". He leaves his bank book and all other effects to his oldest daugher, Mabel Maude. The will states she "...is married to a man named Louis Beaufort Musician Eng." It continues, rather sadly, ..."I know nothing about any other member of my family"
This enabled me to locate Frederick James in the 1901 Scottish census - he is indeed noted as step-son to James Gordon, at a house in Dunoon, but there is no sign of Annie. I've still drawn a blank on the 1911 census (anywhere in the UK) for any of the family so still a big gap in knowledge of their destiny.
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Hi Alasdair
Young Harry Ewart Coleman looks to have joined the Navy by 1901 going by this entry http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7148340
And a death:
Harry Ewart Coleman b. 14 Oct 1885, died aged 86 in Weymouth, Dorset. Vol. 7c, pg 580. Death registered in Dec. 1971
Monica :)
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There is a death showing in Renfrewshire in 1947 for a Lilly Coleman born c. 1883. This is just from the general index search. Don't know whether any further surname shows.
Not sure if you have checked marriages/deaths on SP for any of Frederick's siblings?
There is also a marriage showing in 1902 for a Lily Coleman in Renfrewshire.
Monica
Added: I think you can ignore the Renfrewshire entries :-\ There is a Lily Coleman showing with family in 1901 in Renfrewshire born c. 1883. Likely her entries I am seeing...
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Thanks a lot! Delighted to find Harry.
I've been through SP quite extensively and cannot find anyone else!
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Had a thought that Mabel was already using a stage name by 1901 maybe?
I saw this entry in Dundee in 1901.
John Logan 46 Battery Sergt Mager (R. A) b. Ireland
Jessie Logan 42 wife b. England
Jessie Elliot 9 niece b. England
Mabel West 21 bd (boarder?) actress b. England
Helen Campbell 18 dom. servant b. Dundee
Frederick H Leslie 53 actor b. british subt, America
Bert E Ward 32 lodger Theatrical Manager b. New Zealand
Ruby Ward 25 lodger b. England
Address: 49 Castle St, Dundee
Monica
Added: There are references in the newspapers to a Mabel West, actress through the 1880-90s. Not sure therefore whether the entry above connects to her, with just a mistranscription on her age or whether this is a different Mabel West aged 21 (fitting well in age with your Mabel). Hard to say always without looking at original material. SP also have this Mabel in Dundee as aged 21 in 1901.
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Thanks so much for this. The National Archives discovery was a revelation and I downloaded Harry's record - he had a long career in the navy until about 1926 if I read the writing correctly.
Having a look around the records too, I discovered quite by chance that Harry's brother, Frederick James Coleman (my great grandfather) also signed up with the Navy, but in 1908 (as a "boy"). I also downloaded his record. What's quite interesting from that though is he obviously couldn't cut it and bought himself out for £10 after only two months on the training ship and well before his commission proper was due to start. It is of some significance that at this time he was still going by his birth surname of "Coleman" rather than Gordon as he has become by his marriage in Glasgow in 1915.
As for Mabel, I don't think the record you've found for Mabel is mine - the age is right but she was born in Dundee, not England. She may remain a mystery.
Thanks so much for taking an interest and helping uncover these connections.
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Pleasure, Alasdair :) Hope you find what else happened to Frederick's siblings.
Monica
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Another addendum to this exchange around my Coleman ancestry. I have managed to track down Lilian (Lily) Elsie Coleman as marrying an Albert Edward Beanland in Durham in 1902. The clue that led me to this discovery lay in a near illegible comment on Frederick Coleman's Navy record: he was bought out of the navy for £10, paid for by an A.E. Beanland. A bit of detective work on familysearch and I found the marriage record. Tragically, it looks like Lily died young in 1912.
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Thank you for the update here, Alasdair.
Gosh, this family have kept you busy for years ;) Fun though, the ins and outs you have had and that is always what makes it interesting.
Monica
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What an interesting family
Just wondered if you'd got any further .
I wouldn't dismiss the Mabel West actress that Monica found .have you seen original ? Great photo btw does she have any family resemblance ?
.As you have her birthdate 25/9/1980
you could look for her on 1939 register
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Had a quick look ...Mabel Maude Steele of Kent is interesting her birthdate has been altered on document
Also at least 1 Mabel M .has full name of Mabel Maud if you look on original. Essberger was a name I looked at but why would she be in South of England ?
Do you have birth certificate?
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Hi there, been away from here for a while and sorry I missed this reply. I've just not had a chance I'm afraid to do any further digging on Mabel Maude.
I did track down Harry Coleman's descendents and we're now connected on facebook!! But they had no idea about the rest of his fanmily at all which is disappointing.