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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: suds on Wednesday 29 June 11 20:56 BST (UK)
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Hello
I have a connection to Cork that I am finding it difficult to unravel. I'll try and explain but please bear with me it's very complicated.
My gggrandfather John Sudlow (1794 - 1850) was a Liverpudlian. He married three times:
1 1824, Catherine Martindale widow of Joseph Martindale (who, incidentally, was drowned when the ferry from Ireland, The Alert, capsized outside Holyhead harbour in 1823). Whilst married to Joseph, Catherine had three children two of which were daughters Mary and Josephine who will appear later. There were six children of this marriage.
2 1839, Annie Hobbs of Cork, daughter of Samuel Andrew Hobbs (on the wedding certificate it describes him as a Gentleman) and Sarah Prittie. One of the witnesses is William Hobbs, brother of Annie. There were two children of this marriage and I am a descendant.
3 1846, Hannah Paget of Cheshire. There were three children of this marriage, amongst them Henry William.
All these marriages took place in Liverpool and the children were born there or The Wirral.
So far so good.
One of John Sudlow's stepdaughters Mary Martindale married William Hobbs (Annie's brother) five days after John Sudlow married Annie.
The other stepdaughter Josephine Martindale married Richard Harris of Cork (son of William Prittie Harris and Rachel Georgina Crofts). I am aware of one child of the marriage of Richard Harris and Josephine Martindale, Rachel Georgina Harris, I believe there are other daughters but I can't confirm it. Anyway, Rachel Georgina Harris married Henry William Sudlow child of John Sudlows third marriage. Phew.
One of the daughters from John Sudlow's marriage to Catherine Martindale, Jessie Sudlow, married Henry Hewitt O'Bryen who was harbourmaster at Cork. His son from that marriage, Maurice, lived in Cork (Queenstown).
I have no record that John Sudlow ever went to Cork. I guess the purpose of this request is to pursue the Hobbs link.
I know that at one time Samuel Andrew Hobbs lived at 1 Marlborough Street, Cork. The Harrises lived at Lakeview, Blackrock.
I apologise for the convoluted nature of this message but I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of earlier Hobbs.
Regards
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Hi,
Just a small bit of information. I went to the City library and had a look at Rosemary Ffolliots newspaper index for all the surnames you mentioned in your post. I only found two references relevant to your surnames - as follows
Marriage notice in the Cork Mercantile Chronicle Wed 2 July 1817
"Yesterday morning at St. Nicholas Church by the Rev Alexander Kennedy, William Harris Esq., son of the late William Harris Esq. of Kilbally in this co. to Georgina, only dau of George Crofts Esq. of Rutland Street".
Marriage notice in the Hibernian Chronicle Mon 3 Apr 1786
last Saturday Mr. William Harris , cooper to Miss Pritty with£3,000...
Nothing at all for Hobbs or any of the other names.
Mary
Celtic liberty
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Mary
Thanks very much for your kind efforts and response. The information that you have turned up is new to me and therefore useful. I was beginning to think that I'd made my post so complicated that I'd put everyone off.
The Harrises seem to be quite a long standing County Cork family.
The following is from a landed estate website. I hope that I am not transgressing any copyright requirements. Please feel free to delete it if I am.
At the time of Griffith's Valuation the representatives of Thomas Harris held an estate in the parishes of Kilbrin and Kilmeen, barony of Duhallow, county Cork. Marianne Wrixon, sister of Sir William Wrixon-Becher, married Thomas Harris of Bathview, Mallow, county Cork and had a number of children. Their eldest daughter married Henry Keating of Mount Esk, county Cork, and the lands of Spring Gove were charged with a jointure for her. In 1810 William Wrixon of Ballygiblin had leased the lands of Rath and Assolas to William Harris of Assolas for the life of Thomas Harris of the city of Cork, sheriff. In the 1850s, William Harris was among the principal lessors in the parishes of Abbeymahon and Templequinlan, barony of Ibane & Barryroe. In July 1871 the Harris estate in the barony of Duhallow was advertised for sale. It amounted to 1,153 acres and included the house and demesne of Spring-Grove. In April 1875 lands at North and South Knocklohart, barony of Duhallow, the estate of William Thomas Harris were advertised for sale. These lands were held by fee farm grant from Peter and Anne Barfoot and Elizabeth Francis Digby to William T. Harris dated 27 February 1851. The Harris family of Lakeview, Cork, were a branch of the Harris family of Assolas.
As you note William Harris married Georgina Crofts. The Crofts family have been traced back a long way (15th century).
Unfortunately neither of these families are in my direct line. However I am in touch with a distant cousin in Australia who is descended from these families. I am descended from Annie Hobbs. So far I have been unable to get further back than Annie's father.
I think it is significant that these are all protestant families. It looks, from afar, that there must have been quite a small group of families who socialised and intermarried.
Once again thanks for your efforts.
Regards
Colin
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Hi (Suds!)
I have been reading through your posts re the Harris Family. I know you stated that you are not directly related to the Harris - but I was wondering in your researches if you have ever come across a mention of Willsfort House in Cork. I know that it was occupied in 1814 by a William Harris - but I am not sure if he was onnected to the Harris' of Assolas. I believe he was connected to the Lakeview Branch - possibly through the Allen Family - as the Misses Allen who lived at Lakeview prior to William Prittie Harris also owned land near Willsfort.
Thanks
Fergal
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kilmonoge
Thanks for your interest. I'm not sure I'll be able to help you. The only reference to Willsfort I have seen is this site:
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie:8080/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2626
which, by your comments, I guess you have seen.
Another site:
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/northcork/grovewhitenotes/abbeyvilletoballyadeen/assolas.pdf
I have transcribed the will of William Prittie Harris and can send you a copy if you would like. I guess his would be the generation that you would be interested in. As far as I know he was the son of William Harris and was one of two children William Prittie and Lydia. I don't have the dates of father William, it could, conceivably, have been him who lived at Willsfort. To be honest though I haven't investigated these ancestors exhaustively.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Many thanks for your response. If you do have the opportunity to send on a copy of the will that would be great.
My main reason for thinking there is a connection (apart from the name of course) - is that Lakeview House - where William Prittie Harris lived - was in 1837 occupied by the Misses Allen. They also owned land at Ballinvoskig - which is the townland where Willsfort is situated. An Encumbered Estates document says that William Harris took a lease on Willsfort in 1788 from the Pigott family of Chetwynd, the remaining part of the townland was leased by one Thomas Allen - possibly the father of 'the Misses Allen'.
My interest in Willsfort stems from the fact that my great great great grandfather would have been one of the tenants of William Harris at Ballinvoskig.
All the best,
Fergal
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Fergal
Have you seen the following:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p37577.htm
It shows a relationship between the family of William Prittie Harris and a family called Allen. Unfortunately there seems to be only one Miss Allen.
I should point out that all my Harrises were protestants and it looks, from afar in time and distance, as if they socialised with and married other protestants. If your Harris was catholic it's unlikely that he'd be related.
I don't think that there is a way to send "word" attachments via Rootschat so I will send you a personal message with my email address. If you respond with your address I'll send you a transcription of the will.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
I'm afraid I can't shed much light on the Hobbs side but a few interesting
marriages for some of the other surnames -
From O'Kief Coshe Mang volumes vol 6
Marriage licence bonds Cork & Ross years 1623-1750
Abel Harris m. Cassandra Hall 1721
Elizabeth Hobbs m. Nicholas Gloyce ? 1634
Joanna Hobs (sp) m. Laurence Clutterbuck 1743
4 Pagett entries but dates probably too early
Alice Pagett m John Gloster 1692
Ann Pagett m John Cotton 1738
Joachim Pagett m Alice Marsh 1673
Margaret Pagett m Francis West 1700
vol. 4 O'Kief Coshe mang
? Allen m John Martin 1791
James Crofts m. Jane Allen 1791
Rachel Crofts m. Richard Harris 1817
Eliza Crofts m Edward William Haynes 1834
Rev Freeman Crofts m Hannah Spread 1781
Ref. Wills Freeman Crofts m Jane Hannah Jameson 1844
William Harris m Ann Pretty 1786
Ann Hobbs m John Haynes 1795
Samuel Andrew Hobbs m Sarah Prittie 1796
Eliz Haynes m David Martin 1829
John Haynes m Ann Hobbs 1795
John William Hobbs Haynes m Ellen Slattery 1823
Jane Hall m Joseph Allen Jnr. 1835
I have a full page of Hobbs entries if you want to send me a pm with your
email address. I should have it from previous correspondence.
Hope you find something of interest here.
Mary
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Mary
What wonderful information you provide. Can I inquire about the document you refere to? Can you give me more information?
Your first reference is interesting.
I haven't come across an Abel Harris but William Prittie Harris's daughter Martha Anne Harris married a David Hall in 1851 at St Finbarr's in Cork. I know it's a big step forward in time but I think the two families lived close together and I wouldn't be surprised if there were earlier marriages.
The next two are also interesting showing that there were Hobbs around earlier than the ones I am aware of in my family tree. The trick now is to make the connection.
I can't see any connection with these Pagetts but I'll bear them in mind.
James Crofts and Jane Allen are the ones that you can see in the peerage reference in an earlier post.
Rachel Crofts and Richard Harris must belong to my tree but I can't see where just now.
The other Crofts must be in there somewhere, you've set me a task.
Also the Hobbs/Haynes connections. I've not come across the name Haynes in my family.
More food for thought.
It's all brilliant stuff. Thank you.
Regards
Colin
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Hi Colin,
I'm sure I have complicated things for you with all those names. I thought
maybe some might stand out for you.
You mention the Haynes, have a look at the Haynes query by PrueM.
All of these marriages are listed in the "Index to marriages Cork & Ross diocese"
These are all contained in 16 large volumes from O'Kief Coshe Mang complied
by a man named Casey who had Irish ancestors but lived in America. These
volumes are held in many libraries around the world. One set is held in
the Cork County library.
The earlier years 1623-1750 are in volume 6
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Hi Colin,
I'm sure I have complicated things for you with all those names. I thought
maybe some might stand out for you.
You mention the Haynes, have a look at the Haynes query by PrueM.
All of these marriages are listed in the "Index to marriages Cork & Ross diocese"
These are all contained in 16 large volumes from O'Kief Coshe Mang complied
by a man named Casey who had Irish ancestors but lived in America. These
volumes are held in many libraries around the world. One set is held in
the Cork County library.
Marriage licence bonds in the Diocese of Cork & Ross 1623-1750 are in volume 6 pages 1-94
Marriages in the diocese of Cork & Ross 1716-1844 are in volume 4 pages 203-227
There is a note under the heading which says these records are generally deficient in
Roman Catholic marriages & in marriages prior to 1740.
There is a full index to the OKief volumes at
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/genealogy/indextookiefcoshemang-corkmaterial/
This is a site from the Cork City library. It also has several business directories
on line.
This site also has the marriage index on line ( would have saved me visiting the
library). They are continuously adding new material so worth checking regularly.
The only information given is the bride and groom and the year of marriage. Unfortunately it does not inclue details of church or parish.
I suppose the thing is to work backwards.
Ignore my previous post as I clicked go before I finished it.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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Hi, I have a relative in my tree Frances Kearton(Sudlow) who was born in 1827 in Liverpool, on ancestry it has on christening record father name as John and mother as Catherine, you came across Frances at all, look forward to your response, regards James
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James?
I think I may have some information although it is not in my direct line.
I have Frances (Fanny) Sudlow b 1825, Liverpool who marries Charles Kearton on the Wirral in 1847. They had a number of children, at least 7 by my count.
I have Frances' parents as Joseph Sudlow and Catherine Campbell, who had three daughters Emma, Frances and Catherine.
Joseph is the brother of my ancestor John Sudlow. There were 7 brothers and two sisters.
Their parents Thomas Sudlow and Frances Mercer is as far back as I have been able to get with certainty.
Regards
Suds
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Just on the Hobbs name, one of the financial commentators in Ireland is a guy called Eddie Hobbs, http://www.eddiehobbs.com/, and he is from Cork. In fact he played rugby in the same club I was played in, when we were all much younger ! I'm fairly sure that his father played for the club before him, so the Cork link might go back further. There's a contact tab on his website, so perhaps you could take a shot in the dark and contact him.
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Suds,
I'm a brother of eddie hobbs and left a message for you on your Samuel A Hobbs thread - the Samuel Hobbs architect (died c1810) had a brother John (both had sons named Samuel). Samuel's son Samuel dies as an infant in 1769. He then has twin boys born 1773 one Andrew dies in infancy and the second Samuel Andrew marries Sarah Prittie in 1796 (he dies 1829 and she dies 1862). They have 7 children - Samuel Augustus (1800/43 unmarried), sussannah (no info) William Prittie (1803 married a Mary and had 5 daughters mary/Catherine/Jessie/frances/henrietta - only info mary marries Mr Jones Hicks; Henry 1804/1858 married Elizabeth 3 children Rebecca married a Thomas john Talbot master mariner, Middlesex, mary anne married john wright dynever road, stoke, sarah 1807 (no info), Charles 1809 marries bryanna pearse, eliza 1812 marries john boyce. dates are baptism dates which could take place well after birth. I have the family tree if you want to pm me and we'll link up online. Hope the info is useful - seems you may be a relative !! Bill
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Suds
Had a look at your original post - Samuel Andrew marries Sarah Prittie c1796 - one of their sons is William Prittie who is probably the witness you write of. However the family tree I have does not list Anne or an Annie as a daughter - unless its Susannah or Sarah as Eliza married a John Boyce in 1836. - john , the architect samuels brother has 5 children one of whom is a mary ann bap. 30/12/1792 - could it be that this is the Ann and William is her first cousin?
Bill
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Suds
I have a note of William Prittie Hobbs son of Samuel Andrew marrying a mary ? they had five daughters mary who married a mr jones hickcs, Catherine, Jessie, frances and henrietta. Seems to me that your Ann must be Susannah born c1802 or Sarah born c1807. If so then we have the link you are looking for all the ways to Samuel Hobbs architect.
Bill