RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: DanteWilhelm on Wednesday 29 June 11 13:09 BST (UK)
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Hi, my surname is Betambeau.
I know there are some living in France right now, I have found records from 1800's and 1600's showing them living in England.
If anyone could tell me:
What the name means;
Where it originates from;
Where the people originate from/where they used to live
and when they came to England I would be very grateful.
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I don't see any at www.geopatronyme.com or at http://www.infobel.com/en/france/ (at least, not with this spelling).
If they were in England from early on they may be a Huguenot family (google searches suggest this is the case), so try having a read through http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/
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The Betambeau family has links with mine.
Jacques BAETAMBEAU married Judith FERET/FERRE 2nd June 1700 at St Dunstan, Stepney.
See this tree -
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/a/t/David-M-Battenbough/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0057.html
Some of heir children were baptised at Saint Jean French Huguenot, Spitalfields, London
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The Betambeau family has links with mine.
Jacques BAETAMBEAU married Judith FERET/FERRE 2nd June 1700 at St Dunstan, Stepney.
See this tree -
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/a/t/David-M-Battenbough/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0057.html
Some of heir children were baptised at Saint Jean French Huguenot, Spitalfields, London
the earliest christening to this couple on Record Pilot is as follows
Jaques Betambeau christened 23rd February 1706 in Spitalfields.....father Jaques
allan
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Definitely an East London Huguenot family, I have noticed them many times during my own researches, though don't have any further info as to where in France they originated.
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The name is listed as 'Bettambos/de bettambos' in Histoire des protestants de Picardie by Louis Rossier, as using the Huguenot chapels around Amiens, Somme, Picardy in the 1670's. That might suggest the London family have their roots there.
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Hi, my surname is Betambeau.
I know there are some living in France right now, I have found records from 1800's and 1600's showing them living in England.
If anyone could tell me:
What the name means;
Where it originates from;
Where the people originate from/where they used to live
and when they came to England I would be very grateful.
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Hi, we share the same surname & like you I have been researching the Betambeau name. The family were French Protestants (Huguenots) who had to flee from religous persecution and certain death.
They lived in the Picardie area of France,near Amiens and came to Dover and on to Canterbury in 1660s approx,then on to london and my first confirmed
marriage record is of Jacques&Judith 1700.St.Dunstans.Jacgues was a Silk weaver. I do not think the name has any specific meaning.
I am having difficulty in proving Jacques parents,so am stuck for a while.
How can we make better contact?
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As for the surnames origin, since the family was originally 'de bettambos' that indicates the surname derives from a placename, and presumably the family originated there. There is a very small commune called Bettembos, near Amiens, which dates back to at least 1154, so this almost certainly the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettembos
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As for Jacques, who married Judith at St Dunstan's 1700, according to Jean Paul Roelly's register of Protestant families from Picardy, his parents were Isaac de BETTEMBOS and Marthe LEROY
http://www.roelly.org/~pro_picards/prop/pag72.html#18
http://www.roelly.org/~pro_picards/prop/pag72.html#22
According to those sources the family were from the village of Vraignes-les-Hornoy (neighbours Bettembos about 2.5 miles away), and used the nearest Protestant Temple to them based at Oisemont.
Jean Paul Roelly's site does not cite a baptism for Jacques, and sadly only a few years survive in the archives, from the Oisemont registers, 1667-1671, so he may have been born to the family in France, but baptised outside these dates.
That said a Jacques Betembos does appear, an illegitimate son Jacques, to Jacques Betembos Sr of Vraignes, listed in 1671 baptised at the same Oisemont Temple:
"Jacques BETEMBOS fils de Jacques BETEMBOS et de Louise LE BRIS de VRAIGNES est né hors mariage le 11ème jour d’août a esté baptisé le 8 de septembre, son parrain Estienne GAMBIER, sa marraine Marie SAUVALLE demeurant à GOUY."
"Jacques BETEMBOS, son of Jacques BETEMBOS and Louise LE BRIS, of VRAIGNES, born out of wedlock, the 11th day of August, baptised the 8th September, Godfather Estienne GAMBIER, Godmother Marie SAUVALLE residing at GOUY."
Possible he was the same child and bought to England by Isaac, possibly his uncle? But probably more likely he was a cousin to yours and your Jacques baptism is indeed in the missing registers.
The family appear to have been in Canterbury by 1674. This is quite early, as the rights of the Protestants in France were not fully revoked until 1685, though Louis XIV had slowly been eroding them by stealth since 1662. That said they would have been unlikely to have been facing 'certain death' (even after the revocation). Though life was made very hard for the Protestants of France, only their pastors faced execution during the outlawed period. Most of the laity remained in France worshiping in secret, whilst maintaining a very thin pretence as 'New Catholic Converts' in public, which fooled no one, but generally satisfied the authorities enough to keep the wolves from the door. Those who fled abroad were the minority who felt they could not in good conscience live under that compromise, or who were victims of extraordinary personal persecutions, and vendettas, at hands of zealous local governers or dragonnades.
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I have today translated this from Louis Rossier's 19th century work the Protestants of Picardy which I cited in an earlier post:
"At Oisemont , Paul George, brother of Samuel, was replaced [as pastor] in 1665 by Pierre Bories, as was he in 1667 by Jacques De Vaux, the former pastor of that same Temple.
The Order of the Lieutenant-General, Thierry, to gather evidence against De Vaux and Phillipe Bernapré, was made at the request of the Kings Prosecutor on June 10, 1671.
According to testimonies, given at different times, in front of the Provost of Vimeau, the services there were held in the upper room of Oisemont Castle. 50 people were admitted, the surplus had to wait in the courtyard, then they would be admitted for a second service, and a third was held in the afternoon. A butcher called as a witness, however, asserted the assemblies sometimes held up to 90.
This was still far from the figure, of approximately 500, which the Bishop later claimed the meetings were attracting at that time. People came there from the towns of Oisemont, of Senarpont and of Hornoy, the villages of Heucourt, of Croquoison, of Vergies, of Vraignes and other surrounding places.
Interrogated once already in July 1671, by the Lieutenant-General himself, De Vaux, De Bernapré, and his son John, were interrogated once again in the November of the same year. They were questioned as to the residence of Bernapré's father, to the number of religious services held, to the number the persons who attended it, to the salary of the pastor.
Among the allegations 'under investigation' were a funeral allegedly held before nightfall, and a wedding announcement published in the assembly during worship, all things contrary to the judgement of the Royal Council.
De Vaux had to submit his records to the authorities, and it is probably due to these circumstances, that we owe the preservation of the one surviving register of this congregation(1):
(1)The register, conserved in the National Archives date from April 1667 to October 1671.
They contain records of 16 marriages and 76 baptism. The names which occur most frequently are : Le Roy, Nourtier, Le Clerc, De Visme, De Bettembos, Desmaret, Delassus, Gambier, du Hamel, Vauquet, De Moufflier.
Also to be found are Charles Routier, De Bernapré and his son, De Rambures of Haudecœurt, Jean de Rambures (spouse of Blanche de Rambures) of Haudecœurt , Philippe de Rambures of Huileux.
The register is certified by De Vaux, the minister, De Bernapré and De Moufflier, elders of the Oisemont Temple, and given legal status by De Bacq, civil officer, for the baillage of Amiens."
As well as the confirmation of the link between the De Bettembos family and this temple, it also confirms the congregation was being put under pressure at the time the family left for England 1671-74. It's quite possible the temple was in fact closed as a result of the above investigation as it was (at least allegedly) in contravention of the very limited conditions Protestants had been allowed for their freedom of worship by the Edit of Nantes in 1598. In fact before the total revocation of the Edit in 1685, something like 80% of France's Protestant temples had already been closed down or demolished, by the above means.
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I have a reference to a marriage pledge dated March 4 1660-1 from the Strangers Church, Canterbury, Vol.5, between Charles Betembes, son of Arthur, and Anne Le Rou.
Could the date be an error, as other occurrences seem to be mostly later, 1670s or 1680s.
Richarde1979, thank you for previous information, I found it very helpful and interesting.
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Hello johnmarg
The entry is there:
"Mars 4 Charles Betembes, fils d'Arthur, natif de Vrigue proche d'Amiens, et Anne le Roux, fille de Laurens, native de Canterbury. Promesse."
From a different village 'Vrigue' (probably modern Vergies) then the latter Betembos from Vraignes 10 miles to the south, so possibly unrelated or a different branch of the family that came over earlier. Some of the Picard families fled across to the Netherlands and England during the 1635 war when most of Northern France surrounding Amiens was temporarily occupied.
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Incidently two of my own Huguenot families the Desmarets of Previllers, and Martins of Senarpont, used this same temple at Oisemont. The Desmarets family switch to the Clermont temple after 1671 which would suggest Oisemont was closed down around the time of the investigation.
Oisemont was aproximately 35 miles to the north of them, and Clermont 35 miles to the south, so they simply had a long trek in the other direction to carry on worshipping.
The Bettembos, based in Vraignes, however had been only 15 miles away from the Oisemont temple, but were much further from Clermont, so now faced a trek of 70-80 miles to their nearest temple, so this may explain why they chose to go abroad at this time, whereas their fellow church members the Desmarets evidently didn't.
Though some of mine did eventually flee anyway, once all the temples were closed on the revocation, members of both families remained in France even then.
In fact our two families come together much later in 1754 when a cousin of mine Marie Madeliene Desmarets, then 24, made the long 150 mile clandestine trek from her home, in Previllers, across the French border to the Walloon church in Tournai, Hainault (now Belgium) where Protestants could marry in the open. Her husband was the 38 year old widow Phillipe Bettembos of Vraignes.
They returned and settled in Vraignes, where they had two children, both who died in infancy, and both of whom were forcibly baptised into the Catholic creed by the local minister, with the parents 'illegitimate' status as Protestants noted in the register. So evidently Bettembos remained in Vraignes even after your relatives fled, and kept to the Protestant faith in France throughout the outlawed period, doubtless enduring the many difficulties and hardships it bought with it.
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I am searching more info on Susanne Betembo, born 1735 St Jean Bethnal Green, married Solomo -n Macaire 1774 (his second marriage - his first was to Jeanne Boitel) at St Matts.
On her entry into French protestant hospital Oct 7 1809, she was 74 yrs old a member of the church of St Jean and grandaughter of a Refuge from Normandy ???? but think it was in fact Somme.
Could she be Daughter of Jacques ?
Have just returned from trip to Vraignes - only readable gravestone for Bettambo was Jean Francois Bettambo - died 26 aug 1905 aged 89 yrs - maybe the last one who stayed ?
Also searching info on Solomon Macaire, date of birth, parents etc - Hoping that 'richard 1979' or 'johnmarg' might help
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New at this, but here is photo of Huguenot Temple at Vraignes
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Hello John
I had a look and unfortunately can't find any information for Salomon Macaire, before the birth of his first child in London in 1762. Many of the new refugees to London in the 1750's were initially received into Minister Bourdillon's congregation in Artillery Lane where the entrance registers have unfortunately not survived, so it is possible he was new refugee and there are no earlier details to be found for him in England.
Susanne's French Hospital record as you say does suggest in her case at least this is not the case and she was the grandaughter of a refugee. The only Susanne Bettambo/Bettambeau I can find in the French church records though is baptised to Jacques and Judith Ferre in 1701 which is way too early to be her. I would have though that couple more likely candidates to be the grandparents.
Your photograph of the Temple at Vraignes is very interesting to see. There is a little bit about it at the link below, it was built in the 19th century once protestantism was once again legal in France, and in use until November 1979.
http://huguenotsinfo.free.fr/temples/vraignes.htm
It's possible Jean Francois Bettembos was the last of the family line surviving in the village as his entrance in the death register below, notes he was unmarried.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/Riche1979/19005jeanfrancoisbettembos.jpg)
There is a discrepancy in as much the death entry records his age as 88 rather than 89 as the gravestone does, though 88 would appear correct as his birth is recorded in the earlier registers as 26 December 1816.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/Riche1979/26dec1816birthjeanfrancoisbettambos.jpg)
The name does however appear still quite numerous then , with lots of other births and marriages appearing in the village throughout the 19th century, so it may just be Jean Francois was the last buried in the Protestant cemetary, the rest of the family may have returned to using the local Catholic congregation.
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Thanks Richard - Susanne as we know had a brother Peter- who signed on her wedding cert with Solomon Macaire - he always signs with an 'o' and not 'a'.
It appears that she might have had a second brother, as on the 'Land Tax' records for 1660/61 at Tower Hamlets - both paid tax and lived in southside Brick Lane.
On subject of Temple, I was lucky enough to see a photo of a baptism in 1913 and a very good turn out of people at the Temple.
Back to Susanne - could she be the daughter of Jacques Jnr and Louise Le Brise, so making Jacques Snr & Judith her Grandparents and Isaac her greatgrandfather ??
Best
John
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Hi John 1935.
My info shows Suzanne born 26/3/1737 as daughter of Pierre Betambeau.born
1712,and Marie Catherine Dujardin married 8/2/1735 in Spittalfields.
Suzanne married a Moseley 17/8 /1769 remarried Soloman Macaire 1774.
Contact if you need any more info.
cheers johnmarg
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Thanks very much, and yes could do with your help please.
1. Could you let me know where you managed to get this info from and did Father originate from Vraignes - le - Hornoy, also I suppose I wrongly thought that the signature on Solomon & Susanne's wedding cert was her brother and it seems could have been Father.
2. I found on land tax register for 1760/61 that there was a Pierre Bettembo living in one house in Brick lane and a Paul living in another- southside Brick lane - could this be a brother do you think, and were they Weavers? I assume that both were dead by 1809 when Susanne needed the French Hospital, as it was Daniel Boitel who helped her.
3. Our - Bete noir is Solomon Macaire - can't find where he comes from or when he went, though it must have been between 1787 ( when he witnessed his son Isaac's wedding and before Susanne died 1809.
4. All info that you can give on Bettembo would help
Sorry to look for so much - but you did ask!!
Best and thanks again
John
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Hi John
Just to confirm Johnmarg's info
Susanne Betembo baptised 10 April 1737 Wheeler Street, Spitalfields, born 27 March to Pierre and Marie Catherine Betembo. Godparents Jacques Betembo and Susanne Yon.
I appear to have overlooked that in my initial search for her, I agree looks likely to be your lady.
Regards
Richard
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Here are all other records of the family using the same Huguenot chapel at Wheeler Street:
1704 28 May Jacques Betambo stood as godfather to Jeanne Ferri/Feré daughter of Abraham & Madeliene Ferri/Feré (Recorded by the Minister as BETAMBOUR signed his own name as BETANBO)
1706 27 Jan Judith Betambo stood as godmother to Abraham Ferri/Feré son of Abraham & Madeliene Ferri/Feré (Recorded by the minister as BETHENBAUT)
1717 15 Sep Jean Betembo son of Jacques & Judith baptised. Born 3 September. Godparents Jean Bénée & Marie Anne Senecal (Recorded by the minister as BETHENBOC signed as BETTENBO)
1719 31 May Jeanne Betembo dau of Jacques & Judith baptised. Born 17 May. Godparents Pierre Ferry & Jeanne Mahieu (Recorded by the minister as BETHENBOE signed as BETENBO)
1721 17 Dec Jacques Betenbo stood as godfather to Rachel Ferrettes dau of Pierre and Rachel Ferrettes. (Recorded by the minister as BETHEMBOC)
1721 31 Dec Pierre Betembo son of Jacques & Judith baptised. Born 13 Dec. Godparents Pierre Ferri & Marie André. (Recorded by the minister as BETHEMBOC signed as BETENBO)
1734 2 Sep Pierre Bourdon married to Esther Betambo, witnesses Jacques Betambo Jr & Sr, Pierre Betambo and Louis Pellet church elder (Recorded by the minister as BETHANBO Witnesses signed as BETENBO/BETANBO)
1735 16 July David Betambo married to Elizabeth Malfuson, witnesses Jacques Betambo & Jacob Malfuson (Recorded by the minister as BETEMBOC Witness signed as BETENBO)
1735 23 Nov Jacques Betembo stood as godfather to Pierre Bourdon, son of Pierre Bourdon & Elizabeth Betambo (Recorded by the minister as BETEMBO Witness signed as BETENBO)
1736 8 February Pierre Betembo married to Marie Catherine Dujardin, witnesses Jacque Betembo, David Poulain & Pierre Ferry (Recorded by the minister as BETEMBO Groom and witness both signed as BETENBO)
1739 11 April baptism of Françoise dau of Pierre Betembo and Marie Catherine Dujardin, born 6 April. witnesses Jacques Betambo & Francoise Laine. (Recorded by the minister as BETENBEAU signed as BETEMBO)
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After all the superlatives used about the Olympic games - all I can say is WOW!!! and thanks very much yet again Richard.
And to site organisers - well done your site is really well organised and very fruitfull.
Best
John
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Hi John1935
My info shows Suzanne/Macaire had 2 children.Mary Ann born 16/10/1776
and Peter John born 12/6/1779.You might have that already but thought I should send it just in case.
Most of my early info came from a second cousin ref Betambeau,he started me
off on the history trail so I can't confirm data.But I do know that he went to the
original records office in London and visited several chapels that French
Huguenots used.
Like you I was really pleased to read Richards latest info as it confirmed all the
research my cousin and I Have done. Am researching male line of Betambeau
only so can't help with Macaire.Best wishes.
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Thanks Johnmarg
Have you any further info on those two children, all new to me. Am into Huguenot library, this week so could find some more
- I am not sure about Peirre as if Richard is right and he was born in 1721, He would only be 15 when he married I know he
was French but don't think that would work.
Best
John
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Hi John
I had the same thoughts about you on Pierre. A marriage at 15 was virtually unheard of amongst the Huguenots. Generally boys did not become adult members of the congregation until 18-21, and girls around 16-19. On occasion they were slightly younger or older but rarely by a very great deal. Even then it was frequently a good 4-5 years after that they would marry, as a community they rarely rushed into it, and were very much opposed to child marriage.
A Pierre Bettembo was accepted as an adult member of the Huguenot congregation at Threadneedle Street on 27 June 1739 on the testimony of his aunt, age noted as 17. It would be likely this is the Pierre born 1721, and certainly he would not have been married before that point as he would have been considered still a child within the community. I think it was actually likely he was the same Pierre who married Anne Brisset/Breeset on 09 Jul 1746 Saint Dunstan,Stepney, and had several children with her baptised at Threadneedle Street French Huguenot. 25 was a very typical sort of age for a Huguenot male to marry.
That said I still think it is possible Pierre who married Marie Catherine Dujardin may have been from the same parents.
They had an older Pierre baptised at St Jean, Spitalfields on 28 Sep 1712. I cannot find a burial for him in the East London churches (Huguenot chapels were not able to bury their own dead, so would have used the nearest local Anglican yard). The practise of naming children with identical names is more common in the French community than the English. In English families it rarely occurs unless the first child has died, but in my own Huguenot families alone, my 'Mourgue' family named three sons Etienne, two of which both survived to adulthood, and My 'Picard' family, incredibly named 7 sons Isaac, and 4 daughter Elizabeth, and at least five of the sons and two of daughters reached adulthood!
It seems confusing, but I imagine within the family they must have been known by individual 'nicknames', or I can't see how it would have worked. It was traditional for Huguenot children to take the name of their godparent, Pierre Bettembo 1712 was named for his godfather Pierre Ferrettes, and Pierre Bettembo 1721 was named for his godfather Pierre Ferri. If both these men were important to the family, and they wanted to honour them by making them a godparent to a child, the fact there was already a Pierre in the family may have been secondary! This was also the case in my family the Mourgues, the repititon of the name being explained by the parents choice of godparent.
Of course this is speculation but I cannot see any other obvious candidate, and the other facts seem to suggest such scenario.
John if you are visiting the Huguenot Library would it be possible to ask you for a look up on my behalf. Unfortunately I am unwell at the moment, in an out of hospital for various procedures, so not really able to go myself for the foreseeable future. Of course if you are too busy with your own work, I quite understand, please just say, not a problem at all.
Regards
Richards
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Thanks Richard
Will try for you next week if you let me know what you are looking for, though as you know anything special has to be ordered two weeks in advance, but a lot of info is also in hands of national archives - so let me know and I will do the best I can -get fit soon
Best
John
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Hi John
What I'm hoping to find is if my ancestor Julien Francois Jacques Bellenger/Bellanger (often just went by 'Francois Bellenger') appears in the records of the Royal Bounty 1750-1770. He may appear in either East London or West London as he lived in one place but was schooled in the other. The index to these records are contained in Quarto Series 51which should make them easy to find. It might also be worth checking for Solomon/Salomon Macaire in those records as he may appear if he was a new refugee also.
Also there is a record of his apprenticeship from the Westminster French Protestant School in June 1764 to Daniel Le Bailley, as a silk weaver, contained in the Huguenot Society Proceedings VOL XXVII NO.4, according to this more info on that can be found in the minutes of the Westminster French Protestant School Directors (Huguenot Library reference mss WS A 1-8.)
As I say if you do find yourself too involved with your own research when you get there, please don't worry about it, but any help you can offer of course is much appreciated.
Regards
Richard
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John 1935. Ref Pierre Betambeaux2. Clarification.
1.Pierre 1712 m Marie Catherine Dujardin 8/2/1735 Spitalfields
2.Pierre. 1721 m Anne Brisset.9/7/1746.St Dunstans. Stepney.she born 1724.Do'nt know where.
Parents of both Pierre's. Jacques and Judith m.2/6/1700.
regards.johnmarg.
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Thanks for clarification Johnmarg, below is some more info that you might or might not have, but putting it on for general use anyway.
1. While at Tournai found following marriages.
27/05/1752 Pierre Betembo from Vraignes with Marie Madeleine Malivoir from Fresneville.
04/11/1752 Marie Francoise Betembo from Vraignes with Jean Baptiste Nez from Lempire.
2. While searching the Land Tax books for Bethnal Green 1st and 2nd Div, I found that Peter Betembo was living at 78 Church Street from 1760 to 1763, but by 1772 he had moved to 189 York Street.
Paul Betembo lived at 127 Brick Lane, and was still in Brick Lane in 1772 but at 141.
3. William Mosely also lived in Brick Lane west No.97 - could this have been Susanne's first husband.
For Richard 1979 - No luck with Francoise Bellanger, but found a Peter, who from 1760 TO 1768 lived at 124/125 St Johns Street - but small problem - he was buried at St Matts in 1767. Also while I had free use of Ancestor's site at Tower Hamlets I searched but only Francois that turned up was in Quebec.
Best to you both
John
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John, thank you for looking anyway, Regards Richard
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Johnmarg
Found Solomon Macaire only twice in Bacon Street, with Jeanne/Jane Boitel, otherwise she is down to pay the land tax, so maybe Solomon has a second address .?
You gave me two children of Solomon and Susanne Macaire, could you let me know Where they were born ( Church)as this might give me another lead. Note that Susanne would have been 39 and 42 on their births?
Best
John
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Hello Richard
Yesterday at N.A. with Huguenot books, but sorry no luck on your man, and not much on my Eusebes or Boitels, either, but at least a slim lead on Solomon, from a family file left with them in 1971.
Best
John
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Have found that a Peter Betembo lived in Bethnal green, firstly at 78 Church Street, from 1760, then 1772 To 1787 at York street (now called Whitby Street), then at Anchor Street in 1788. Could have been our Susanne's brother?
Also a Paul Betembo
who lived in brick lane from 1760, for 27 years, but either changed houses or they were renumbered.
Leaving London for home this weekend - still unable to find further info on Susanne's children.
Best
John
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3 years later and I have the sudden urge to research my origins once again.
I Googled my surname and of course, due to the (so i thought) lack of interest
this post was on search page 1! However that was to my delight as it meant that I
did not have to look far.
Thank you so much everybody for the responses, I have not read through them all yet, only the first page, this is as much about you as it is I however and I thank you for the learning experience which we have all shared.
So my family comes from Bettembos, a tiny place in France, from the 1100s? As per the last recorded census which I saw (only looked on Wikipedia) there were less than 100 people living there in 2006. I finally know my origins, I finally know who I am. But not why our name was changed, perhaps to distance ourselves from anything related to our Huguenot past?
I do however think that some surnames have originated from people spelling them wrong, what's written being taken for fact, and the name sticking and creating variations (maybe). I also think a lot of surnames were just appointed to people as per their profession, i.e, workman, drinkwater, breakspear however I could be wrong!
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Entrance to Betembo land
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And center of village