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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: molliedog on Tuesday 28 June 11 03:24 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find a birth/death for a Thomas Bale and Susannah Toby/Bale who were married in Wellingborough in 1797. They are both listed as being of that parish, and I am presuming they were born some time around the 1770's?. They also had a son and daughter baptised there in 1801 and 1803, but this is all the information I can find on them. The only other peice of information I have is that Thomas was apparently a soldier, but all searches of military records I can find do not support this.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Kristy
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Hi Kristy.
On the Northants Baptism Indexes there are 2 baptisms noted of a Susanna/h.
Wellingborough C of E
21 Aug 1776, Susanna TOBY d of Daniel and
20 Feb 1779 Susannah TOBY d of Daniel
Sandy
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And to chose which Susannah father is yours from the Marriage Indexes.
Wellingborough
15 Aug 1764
Daniel TOBY otp, bachelor to Martha HALFORD otp, widow
Wellingborough
06 Dec 1768
Daniel TOBY otp, widower to Elizabeth BEDGIT otp, widow
Sandy
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Thomas is a bit harder to find.
Hopefully someone else with the indexes might be able to do it
as I am going out now.
Otherwise ask Alan Clarke on my links below this posting if he
can help. :)
Sandy
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Is this the same Thomas & Susannah ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,541163.0.html
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Seems like it.
I looked at the original marriage today, no clues on the witnesses. :(
Sandy
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Thanks very much for that Sandy. At least I have a little bit more information on Susannah to work on. I will try Alan as you suggested and see if he may have any leads on the elusive Thomas!!
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From the A2A, Beds Archives repository
Bedford St Pauls - settlement examinations
Sam. Toby. Born in "South-Asted", Essex, [?Halstead] where his father Daniel Toby lived under certificate from Wellingborough. He served his father as an apprentice; his father being a weaver. No other settlement. 1769
I have no idea if this is relevant
A Samuel Toby married Sarah Jordan at Bedford St Paul on 29 Jun 1769
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Nice one John.
Possible connection.
I have looked at Wellingborough All Hallows burials and there is only one.
A daughter ELizabeth, 12 Aug 1800.
Sandy
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Having looked further at Parish Records and censuses the
family do not appear to be in Northants after the childrens
baptisms 1800's.
Sandy
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Thanks John and Sandy for all your work.
Thomas Bales is proving to be a very elusive man indeed. I guess I will now try and widen my search to nearby counties and see if I have any luck there!
Thanks again.
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Hi Sandy,
Sorry to annoy you again, but is it possible they might be listed under Bates. I have found a Thomas and Susannah living in Denford in 1818. They are listed as having 3 children, Mary,10, John,6 and Anne 9 months.
I have tried to find birth records for them with no luck. I was wondering if you ever have a spare minute weather you would mind checking the northants parish registers for their births, as this might give me a lead to which county they were in until 1818 at least. Not sure if they would be listed under Bales or Bates.
I have since found a Thomas and Susanna Bates in Middlesex (1841,1851,1861 census) and the dates all fit and Susanna is listed as being from Northants, Thomas from Bedfordshire. Hope this helps
Thanks,
kristy
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Hi Kristy.
No trouble helping is what Rootschat is all about. :)
I have lookd at the Northants Baptisms and still can not find
any folk in Denford or nearby villages under either variants.
Also checked some non-conformists records I have.
There was certainly a John and Susannah baptising in the village
in that time span, none of the children were named as your posting.
May I ask where you have found the info stating that Thomas
and Susannah were in the village in 1818, was it a settlement order
or removal order at all.
Also as Thomas says he was from Harold and born 1781 that would
make him only 16 at marriage, not impossible as he may have
forgotten a few years.
His baptism at Harold may not have been when he was 1st born, maybe
a year or two later.
The 3 censuses you mention certainly have Thomas Bates as an
Soldier/Ex-Soldier.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
This Thomas is going to be the death of me, and hes not even my ancestor....hes my husbands!!
In the national archives I found a removal order to the parish of Eaton Socon for Thomas and his family (the 3 children mentioned, not the original 2 from wellingborough) from Denford, but I'm not sure if i ever happened. I have tried finding him in Bedfordshire after this date and there is no trace of them (even other rootchatters couldnt find any). Do you think the Bales /Bates thing is a possibility? Its so frusterating being in Australia as I would love to have access to the reords over there.
Is it possible there is a marriage for a Thomas Bates and a Susannah in Northants sometime around 1800? If there is then this will rule them out as being my Thomas and Susannah. If not, then maybe they are the Bales that get married in Wellingborough in 1797???? What do you think????
Kind regards,
Kristy
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WE HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH!!
Well its a small win at least. I think I have found the Daughter Ann/Anne who is listed in th removal order for the Bale family.
There is a Ann Ball born 1817 (date totally correct) in Denford, to a Thomas and Susanna, which also fits with their removal order the next year from Denford to Eaton Socon. I have also found a John Ball, married in Eaton Socon to a Mary and he is in all the census 1851,61,71,81) as being born in Denford too (this fits with John in the removal order born abot 1812).
Not sure about the daughter Mary
Is it possible that the Denford baptism records support this Sandy?
Thanks so much for all your help.
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Hi Kristy.
Sorry I have not been on Rootschat much this week.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,544175.0.html
I will try and answer your question next week if no one else does.
Sandy
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Hi Kristy.
Reading through the topics I would myself go back to where
I have original documentation for the family, i.e. birth certs, marriage
and deaths working downwards to the family you hope are yours.
Sometimes by doing so it means the lineage if confirmed as much
as it is able to be, any errors become visible.
It would seem strange although not impossible to me to have the
3 surnames all relating to the same folk you seek although taking
in to account surname spelling variants it may be correct.
If you would like to show us how you started and made your way
down the tree it could also help us clarify for you too, if you wish.
I hope you are not offended by what I say as you did ask me what
I thought.
Sandy
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Hi sandy,
No I'm not offended. Any help at this stage is appreciated.
I think I can safely rule out the Bates connection, it was a long shot and from further research it is very unlikely. The Ball (which can be confused with Bale, particularly the way in which it is written in the old documents), is a real possibility, I think.
All I have that is concrete on this family is the birth of Thomas Bales in Wellingborough in 1803 to Thomas and Susannah. This Thomas was a convict and was sent to Australia in 1822 and is my husbands direct relative. On his death certificate it lists parents as Thomas and Susannah with his fathers occupation as a soldier. Now all this, appart from the soldier thing, appears to be correct.
You then found Susannah Toby (Bale) birth in Wellingborough, so her birth is known, and this is basically all I have.
From searching the national archives I found a removal to order for a Thomas Bale, Susannah and 3 children from Denford to Eaton Socon in 1818. This I am fairly sure is them. Now while the name appears to have a change here to Ball it fits with the birth of the 2 younger children as an Ann Ball was baptised in Denford by Thomas and Susanna in 1817 and a John Ball from all thie census is listed as being born in Denford at the same time as well. This is helped by the fact that these Ball children are then found in the census's in Eaton Socon where they married and then the 2 girls died.
If this is correct then the parents might well be Bedfordshire too, but I have found no trace so far, under Bale or Ball.
So thats the story and all I have.Hope this all makes scense!!
Kind regards,
Kristy
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Morning Kristy.
So these are the baptism of Mary & Ann as below.
Denford
25 Dec 1807
Mary Ball to Thomas & Susanna
21 Jul 1817
Ann Ball to Thomas & Susannah, Edited: shepherd not shoemaker
There does not seem to be one for John.
My father in lived in Denford when he married for the 1st time.
Sandy
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Not sure if we listed these from the Northants Baptism Indexes.
Wellingborough C of E
13 Nov 1801
Elizabeth BALES d of Thomas & Susannah
14 Aug 1803
Thomas BALES s of Thomas & Susannah
Also maybe Elizabeth stayed in the village and had an illegitimate child.
Denford
23 Jul 1820
Sarah d to Elizabeth Ball (base born)
Sandy
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I wonder. :-\
From the Northants Marriage Indexes.
Islip
05 Mar 1827
John CARPENTER otp, bachelor to Elizabeth BALL of Denford, spinster
Sandy
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On 1851 census in Irchester; a Sarah Bace is recorded, single age 28 born Benford Northants, house servant to a farmer. Someone using Anc* has corrected it to be Ball, but looking at the image it looks like Bale.
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Well I think that confirms the Bale/Ball issue. Confirmation of the baptisms of Mary and Ann together with the removal order from the National Archives which lists them as Bale means I definitely have the right family, now all I have to do is find tha elusive thomas!!.
Most of the children seem to have gone with them to Eaton Socon, as I have marriage and burial records for them there. The son Thomas must have ended up back in Wellingborough, as that is where he is convicted. I will go and check the census lists for Elizabeth,as I have another possibility for her as an Elizabeth Bale married in Wellingborough in 1818 and from census records she was born there too (which my Elizabeth was).
I also found a death for a Thomas Ball in Eaton Socon in 1824, but there is also one for Denford in 1833. Not sure what to do about that. From the ages they could both be possibilities, but the Denford one is more likely?!?!?
Census not much help. Elizabeth died 1843 in Islip/Thrapston so still not sure where she was born.
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Hi again Kristy.
Which ship did Thomas arrive in Australia on.
From the N.M.I. is this the marriage of ELizabeth ?
Wellingborough
11 Apr 1819
Samuel BURTON otp, bachelor, labourer to Elizabeth BALE otp, spinster
Sandy
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If so this family is in Wellingborough (Salem Lane) on the
1841 Census.
Sandy
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They are still in Wellingborough in 1851. ???
How are you working out the folk you think are yours Kristy.
The Elizabeth dying in 1843 Thrapston Reg District is John Carpenter's wife whose marriage I noted earlier.
Sandy
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OKay found Thomas departure.
Thomas Bales, Tried 16th July 1822 at Northampton,
sailed on the vessel OCEAN, to N.S.W. , voyage date 22 Apr 1823.
Sandy
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Well I have just spent a couple of hours looking up Thomas
in the newspaper and I am more confussed than ever. :)
Sandy
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I found Thomas aged 17 in 1822 making a possible birth in 1805.
I wonder why he was in Wellingborough and his parents in Denford.?
Elizabeth's marriage in Wellingborough had a Mary Bale as a witness.
I need for you to look this new info and tell me what you think Kristy.
Please.
Sandy
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Reading the article in the newspaper Thomas and the other
people involved were sentenced to death by execution, yet I
could not find any change to the sentence prior to deportation.
Sandy
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My best guess at the moment is this. When the family got the removal order from Denford in 1818, they went back through Wellingborough on the way. Here Elizabeth would have still had grandparents (Susannah's parents as she was from Wellingborough) and then she married, with Mary as a witness. She is there until 1866 when she dies. Mary kept going to Eaton Socon where she married and died.
Thomas either decided to stay in Wellingborough too, or returned there after going to Eaton Socon, as he was involved in the offence there in 1822 (which resulted in 3 people being hung). He did get his sentence changed to transportation (have this information on Ancestry on my tree) for 14 years I think it was. There is also an article I found on the trial from a paper there which lists all the details about what happened. I think they took pity on the 2 youngest offerders, but the older ones were not so lucky.
I guess the next thing is wether the parents stayed in Eaton Socon, or did they return to Northamptonshire? All the children seemed t be accounted for now, but still no elusive parents!!
I am glad it seems just as confusing and frusterating to you. I have been search for Thomas's parents for 3 years now, and the name changes drive you crazy. I think there are about 5 different versions of Bales once he gets to OZ!!
Have since found a Thomas ball died Eaton Socon 1833 and then a Susannah Ball widow marrying a John Shepherd, widow in Eaton Socon in 1836. looks like this could be it.
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Morning Kristy. :)
Thanks for P.M.
Also for listing the info below. I more than likely missed the sentence
being reduced although I did look from June until August. :)
I have one problem with Mary being a witness at Elizabeth's
wedding as she would only have been 10. :-\
I meant to ask what was Thomas senior's occupation.
I think folk here would like a good outcome for you in solving the
mystrey. :)
Will be in touch.
Sandy
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Hi again Kristy.
I am linking your other 2 topics on the Bedford Look ups Board
so we can see what other information has been already been
found /dis-counted/verified for you about the family by other
Rootschatters. :)
It all helps when looking back.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,541163.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,544857.0.html
Sandy
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Back to scrolling through Eaton Socon today!! It looks like that could be my Thomas, but unfortunately no leeds as to where he came from. On Mary's or Ann's baptism it lists his occupation as a shoe maker, but on the death record of his son Thomas it lists soldier, so who knows....maybe he was both???
Thanks for linking other topics....hopefully we are getting somewhere!!
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Hi Kristy.
Thank you for e-mail will reply off the forum. :)
I have a problem here.
Mary Ann baptism in Denford in 1807 does not give an
occupation of father.
Ann baptism notes him as a Shepherd.
Sandy
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Sorry for the confusion. From the baptism information you sent through for Ann it lhad listed Thomas as a Shoemaker, but maybe it was meant to be shepherd. This would actually fit better as his son John is also listed in the census as a shepherd in Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire after 1841.
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Sorry my apologies Kristy.
21 Jul 1817
Ann Ball to Thomas & Susannah, Edited: shepherd not shoemaker
It certainly does say shepherd.
Also the Northants Baptisms Indexes said Mary in 1807 whilst the
original says Mary Ann.
Sandy