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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: MaxD on Monday 20 June 11 20:22 BST (UK)
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Here's the puzzle. Emma White, later Emma Double, appears as such on her marriage cert and all relevant censuses from birth to 1891. One of her daughters, Ada, appears in relevant censuses 71,81,91 as Ada Double and then later as Ada Birchall. However, in 1901, Emma, now a widow living in St Ives with the family of another daughter, appears as Emma E Double. In the same census, Ada, living in Fulham with her husband, appears as Ada E Birchall. In 1911, Emma now is recorded as Emma Edgcumbe Double. Ada died in 1903, her death is recorded in the register in Wandsworth as Ada Edgcumbe Birchall. So - assuming the "E" in 1901 stood for Edgcumbe, where the Sam Hill did it come from. There is no Edgcumbe connection in any other sibling or in anywhere else I've looked related to the 2 ladies. Theories (or even explanations) welcomed!
MaxD
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What does her birth certificate say?
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i see emma was born in 1828 in london
what does it say her fathers name and occupation was on her marriage cert
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I had a similar thing happen to me and when all came to all, the 'odd' name was actually the maiden name of the maternal next generation back so if that was true in your case that would be possibly Emma's mums maiden name. ( ie passing down the name to keep it alive I guess)
As my relevant relative had been born pre 1837, I had to buy a birth cert for a younger child to get that maiden name. As mine was an odd name that also appeared on a local pub, I had wondered if the name had come about because there was a strange relationship with the publican :o but it was way simpler than that.
This possibility may not fit your family but you did ask for theories :)
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All theories gratefully received, they may give an idea for a new avenue of research.
Baptism record Jan 1828 says Emma White, father Henry White, mother Mary Ann White (I think she was Mary Ann Payne). Henry named on marriage cert in 1854, publican (he was landlord of the Marlborough Head in Dedham Essex). No Edgcumbe there. Following Candleflame's lead, I'm now sending for daughter Ada's marriage cert to see what it says. Just to add that Emma had 6 other children apart from Ada, none of the others have the mysterious E or Edgcumbe in anything I've seen (although I must admit I do not have all certificates - bit expensive).
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My grandmother had her godmother's surname for a middle name.
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Presumably from birth? The E/Edgcumbe only appears in documents when the 2 were respectively 73 and 22 years old!
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Ada died in 1903
- I can only see a marriage for her! familysearch shows it to Herbert William Buckley, she's shaved a couple years off her age and gives her father as "Joseph Dobell". She may be "Ada E Buckley" in 1911.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/ - shows she divorced her husband in 1902, given only as "Ada Birchall" on that index, though.
Looks like she has a son Francis in 1901, he may be registered as "Francis Cyril E Birchall" on freebmd - he also had the middle name "Edgecombe":
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/welg1918p2.htm
So the connection was there at least by 1893 when Francis was born.
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Hi
I have a couple of people in my tree like that. One had the middle name Lonsdale, which turned out to be the maiden name of his 3 x great grandmother.
Another had the middle name of Carew. There are no Carews in the family and we can only think that she was given it because the area she was from had a noble family there with that surname.
Freckles
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Jorose - your thoughts definitely are worth following up, thank you for the leads.
Freckles - there may also be something similar in my case. Francis Birchall was a solicitor aged 45 ish when he married Ada who was 18 ish in 1889. After generations of ag labs (and a father with a criminal record) perhaps this was a way of adding value like your Carew.
Obviously some work to do. If the connection turns out to be Ada and the Birchalls, I'll have to work out why Ada's mother took up the Edgcumbe name also.
Never mind, it's Wimbledon so my lady wife is quite happy for me to disappear among the records. I'll work of the clues. Thanks again.
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there is also a death reg
Francis Cyril E Birchall
born 10 May 1893
death reg Mar qtr 1978
age 84
Bournemouth 23 0444
Suz
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Ada married as Ada Edgcumbe
Marriage St barnabus N Side Surrey
18 Feb 1903
herbert William Buckley 30 bachelor Civil Servant 113 Sugden Rd father William Thomas Buckley occ Agent
Ada Edgcumbe Birchall 30 widow Overden Nevis Rd Balham father Joseph Dobell (deceased) occ Gentleman
Witnesses Georgina Agnes Birchall
William Chatting
Suz
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Hi, Just a point about Edgcumbe, it is a small place in Cornwall. Maybe someone in the family came from there. There is also a place called
Edgcumbe in New Zealand in the Bay of Plenty, and there is also a volcano
called Mount Edgcumbe. Maybe it has something to do with a geography
point and not someone who they married??
Just a thought
regards
Sandymc
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Thank you Suzard , useful clues - it's beginning to take shape now but, as said, a lot to do to make it all hang together.
Thanks also Sandymc. The Doubles were Suffolk and then Essex and London.
I'll plod on!
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Definitely some little white lies going on at that second marriage, both with her age and the fact that she wasn't a widow as her first husband didn't die, as far as I can tell, until 1916 (possibly the divorce hadn't fully gone through yet at that point). She has her stepdaughter Georgina as a witness, too. ::)
Interesting that both the 1903 marriage and the 1918 marriage of her son make the surname "Dobell" rather than Double. Perhaps this change was for the same reason as the addition of "Edgcumbe".
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I too am beginning to smell a rat or two. I had noticed the widow bit (his death is 99% the one in 1916 given his many first names) and she describes father as occupation gentlemen - he died in 1885 and as late as 1881 was plying his trade as a baker. There must be something strange going on also with the fact that the Edgumbe/Edgcombe bit does seem to be associated with Ada Double/Birchall/Buckley so what is her mother doing with it also? It doesn't help but I've found Charles Francis B Birchall's will, £19 to a spinster that is probably his sister and also his first wife's will. The presumed son, Francis Cyril E Birchall seems to have gone to Canada, he was married in Toronto in 1918, is on an incoming passenger list from Quebec in 1926 and died in Bournemouth in 1978 as Suzard found. It may be that if any of his family are around, something may surface there. Meanwhile, as I've said, I'm now waiting for Ada's (first) marriage cert to see what it says. I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in her marriage/connection to Charles FBB. Thanks for your interest everyone.
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Do let us know what info the certificate has
Suz
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Will do!
MaxD
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Progress report. Ada's marriage certificate (to Charles Francis Bullard Birchall in 1889) says Ada (no middle name)Double, age 20, father Joseph Double dec'd, occ Baker, all correct facts. So far then, apart from the appearance of the name Edgcumbe, no connections made. She divorced him in 1902 (rare occurrence), I'm waiting to hear from TNA how much it will be to copy her petition papers, may be a clue there.
Incidentally, after a second marriage, she died in 1935, leaving a sum worth £113,667.49 to her son from marriage one!
More later perhaps.
MaxD
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Hi MaxD, for what it's worth as a possible expanation here is my similar situation. My g. grandfather William Wilson was born near Southport in 1877. On his birth certificate he is plain old William Wilson, son of Robert Wilson and Mary Jane Dickinson. He carries on quite happily as William Wilson it seems until about 1931. In that year one of his daughters got married. His name on the marriage certificate appears as William G. Wilson. The same applies to his own death certificate in 1943. This preplexed me to say the least. I eventually made it down to the cemetery where he was buried in Leigh, Lancashire. From the grave stone it transpires that the 'G' stood for Gerrard. This, I found out soon afterwards, was the maiden name of his maternal grandmother (Ann Gerrard married Richard Dickinson in 1831 in Liverpool). At the time I had no idea why this middle name suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It was suggested to me that it was not uncommon at the time for people to 'adopt' a personally significant middle name later in life. Whether this was done in any legally formalised way (such as changing a name by deed poll) I couldn't say. All I know is that I was glad to get to the bottom of things.
Regards
Doddie
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What address was Ada at for her first marriage in 1889 - was this the same as her mother's address in 1891?
And the witnesses - known family members?
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Progress report. Ada's marriage certificate (to Charles Francis Bullard Birchall in 1889) says Ada (no Incidentally, after a second marriage, she died in 1935, leaving a sum worth £113,667.49 to her son from marriage one!
More later perhaps.
MaxD
Thanks for letting us know - so it seems she used Edgcumbe when she felt like it
I think you may have misread the amount she left- if I have the correct Ada
Probate
Ada Edgecumbe Buckley of 56 Park Hill Road Wollington Surrey (wife of Herbert William Buckley) died 17 Apr 1935 at 23 Bentick RSt Marylebone Middlesex.
Admin London 21 Aug to the said Herbert William Buckley retired civil servant and Francis Cyril Edgecumbe Birchill, salesman
Effects 2286 pounds 16shillings and 4 pence
Maybe it was Herbert William Buckley who left a large sum of money??
Possibly he died Dec qtr 1957 - but the money then would still be in LSD-pounds shillings and pence- and you seem to have the amount left in decimal???
Suz
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Jorose - Ada was at the Terminus Hotel London Bridge (a likely story!) when she married in 1889. Mother in 1891 was living in Romford, on her own, having been widowed in 1885. Witness names are not known family members (a bit strange as there were other siblings scattered about London "in service" at the time).
Doddie - I'm looking out for something similar. This extra name doesn't appear on Ada's family side at all, I'm confident of that. I am in the throes of looking at the first husband's line but so far no success. A (heavy emphasis) theory in the back of my mind is that son Francis Cyril Edgcumbe Birchall born 1893 (first record of the Edgcumbe name) may have been fathered by an Edgcumbe and Ada added the name when she felt like it, followed by her mother in a move to pretend that it had always been in the family. It would have been too complicated I suppose to organise the addition to all the other siblings (no Facebook then) hence only those two family members carrying the name.
Next move is to get Francis Cyril's birth cert (another payout!) while keeping an eye open for Edgcumbes in the vicinity of Ada and her husband. Embarrassed to speak ill of a great aunt but he was 49 and she only 24 at the time of the son's birth so who knows?
Thanks for your interest again. MaxD
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Sorry Suz, missed your post when replying earlier. The £2 grand then would be worth £113 grand today was what I should have made clear.
MaxD
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Can you give us the names? I'm thinking that if she was working in London then the witnesses might have been coworkers or people she lived with. The hotel address may have been because she needed an address within the right parish (a "suitcase address"), or possibly she worked there?
(Or maybe she worked for Mr Birchall; I do have one in my tree who married the nanny on his third go round).
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Witness names are H Roberts and Wm G Read. As to working for him, always possible. As it happens, Annie, one of her older sisters, is in the 1891 census (first after the marriage) as servant to younger sister and her husband! Annie had come to the big smoke earlier, she was a servant in 1881 in Paddington (with yet another sister!) and one can easily imagine her bringing her younger sister up from Essex to first work and then marry the master of the house - pure conjecture of course.